Arena Tournament, Round 49: Chile IV and Glunk vs Greenscales and Dusker

[Bayar]

@Bayar, Refs, Chile:

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RAW doesn't outline specifically how to qualify what is enough "grabbing ability" to grapple. Only that you have to be able to grapple. Now, we've all seen the grapple mod listed for horses, which have no hands, have only ungainly legs, and are perfectly fine grappling. So there's at least SOME raw support for it, though, admittedly, by RAW alone, it can go both ways.

Further, IRL, there are many grabs and holds that rely on legs only, including the figure 4, and a variety of others. Legs are capable of manipulation, and are capable of wrapping around someone firmly. If that's the standard that's used for whether or not grappling is allowed with an extremity, then it should be kosher.

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http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html

Think that explains it...

[chilepepper]

@Chile, refs:

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And in case you want to question the credentials, the author of that Wizard's article was a co-designer of D&D, and the chief designer of the Monster Manual.

refs, talic

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Monte Cook was a DnD game designer too, but Malhavoc Press products aren't RAW anymore than that reference you pulled up. Unless you can point to RAW that says you can make an unarmed attack while armed, you can no more do that than make a sword attack without a sword. Just because RAW doesn't expressly forbid it, doesn't mean you can do it. Yes, you can kick as an unarmed strike; but if you aren't unarmed, you can't make an unarmed strike to begin with. Hands, feet, etc. are options for how to deliver an unarmed attack. When you attack with a Morning Star, you can do piercing damage or bludgeoning damage. You still have to have a Morning Star in your hand before you ever get to that option.

and concerning bayar's last post
refs, talic

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Nice! Got both the horse grapple and the kick while armed. It's not RAW either, but still funny!

[Kyeudo]

GM Kyeudo

Wow. We've got some serious rules lawyering going on here and Mavian isn't even involved.

Chilepepper, you are wrong. There is no simpler way to put it. D&D is a game with contradictions built into the rules. The only reason you stop moving when you die is your hitpoints are less than the amount of nonlethal damage you've sustained.

Talic has clearly shown that, despite the name, he has all the limbs and training required by RAW to make an unarmed strike AoO despite wielding a two handed guisarme. Checking into the grapple rules yielded no requirement that that attack be made by hands, nor did it define a grab as more than an unarmed melee touch attack. If you need to know how a grapple without hands could be possible, watch this video from 8:11 to 8:18.

[chilepepper]

Thank you Kyeudo. I assume that means I'm out.

[Bayar]

GM Kyeudo

Wow. We've got some serious rules lawyering going on here and Mavian isn't even involved.

Chilepepper, you are wrong. There is no simpler way to put it. D&D is a game with contradictions built into the rules. The only reason you stop moving when you die is your hitpoints are less than the amount of nonlethal damage you've sustained.

Talic has clearly shown that, despite the name, he has all the limbs and training required by RAW to make an unarmed strike AoO despite wielding a two handed guisarme. Checking into the grapple rules yielded no requirement that that attack be made by hands, nor did it define a grab as more than an unarmed melee touch attack. If you need to know how a grapple without hands could be possible, watch this video from 8:11 to 8:18.

What video ?

[Talic]

That means my Invisibility is gone, and I am now where chile was.

Next up is me, then dusker, then Glunk.

My Actions: Any with LOS to where chile stood can read.

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Well, time to try to 2 on 1 this thing.

Move: from F24 to J19 (50').
Standard: Ready an action.

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Attack any enemy that enters my threat range.

End turn. LOS needed. Turn will stand so long as there are no illegal moves. If I gain LOS to opponent, please give any noticable information that would assist me in threat determination, such as items in hand, any noticeable size changes, and the like.

Stats:

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Location: J19

In hand: gauntlet (equipped), guisarme (2 handed grip)

HP: 28/28

AC: 13 (+3 armor, +2 Dex, -2 Rage)

Saves: +7/+2/+0

Abilities: Rage (used)

Effects on self: Rage 2/9

[Mephit]

LoS:

Greenscales

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No LoS except for Chile's unconscious body, of course.

Dusker

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No change in LoS. (See 1 or 2 LoS's back)

Glunk

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No change in LoS. (See 1 or 2 LoS's back)

It's Dusker's turn.

[theterran]

Dusker - Round 3

Assuming Glunk is still in M19, I will move to O19, drawing my Spiked Chain as I move.

As a Swift Action, I will cast Blade of Blood and take 5 damage.
As a Standard Action I will use Shadow Blade Technique and Attack Glunk.

Attack1 - (1d20+6)[14]
Attack2 - (1d20+6)[26]

Damage - (2d4+1)[7] + BoB - (3d6)[6]
If Both attacks hit...add this cold damage as well: Cold - (1d6)[5]

End my Turn. (If he's not in M19, I'll have to change my move...)
(edit)
If both of those hit, I take the lower roll as my normal attack so there isn't a crit, if only the 26 hits, I'll need to roll a crit.

Stats:

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Location: O19
HP: 12/17
AC: 20 Touch: 16 FF: 16
In Hand:
SoF (3/10)
Boots (0/3)

Spell Slots:
Level 0 - 3/3
Level 1 - 2/3
Maneuvers:

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Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Shadow Blade Technique, Clinging Shadow Strike, Stone Bones

[SoD]

Yup, M19. And no, the 14 doesn't hit. Roll your crit.

[Talic]

I think there was an LOS error.

As I'm in J19.

[theterran]

Crit Roll
Confirm - (1d20+6)[25]
Damage - (2d4+1)[7]

(edit) That's 20 Damage all together...I believe...since the 5 Cold damage doesn't count.

[Talic]

Information for Glunk's turn, as the LOS was in error.

I am in J19. I readied an action when I reached J19.

[SoD]

Glunk, round IV

5 foot step to N18, drawing my great falchion, and attack Greenscale with a two-point power attack ("Grah! I WILL Water Orc Orc you until you die to death!")
attack - (1d20+10)[23]
damage - (1d12+20)[31]

And, in case of crit (18-20 range), open spoiler.
[spoiler]1d20+10[/roll]
attack - (1d12+20)[29]

Battle State:

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HP 7/27
AC 15 (Touch 12, FF 13)
In Hand: Great Falchion
Location: N18
Buffs: Bull's Strength 1/30
Rage: 1/9
STR: 30 (+4 potions, +4 rage).
CON: 20.
Will: +0

Done.

[theterran]

Dusker - Round 4

5ft Step to P18.
Swift Action: Cast Blade of Blood (non painful type)
Standard Action: Initiate the Sapphire Nightmare Blade Maneuver.

Concentration - (1d20+7)[12] VS your AC

Attack - (1d20+6)[8] (-2 if the Concentrate roll fails)
Damage - (2d4+1)[8] + BoB - (1d6)[5] + SNB - (1d6)[1] (if con check passes)

End my Turn

(edit) Wow...epic fail...

Stats:

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Location: P18
HP: 12/17
AC: 20 Touch: 16 FF: 16
In Hand:
SoF (4/10)
Boots (0/3)

Spell Slots:
Level 0 - 3/3
Level 1 - 1/3
Maneuvers:

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Sapphire Nightmare Blade-x, Shadow Blade Technique-x, Clinging Shadow Strike, Stone Bones

[SoD]

...damn it, why do I not type the right thing;

Glunk, round IV

5 foot step to N18, drawing my great falchion, and attack Greenscale with a two-point power attack ("Grah! I WILL Water Orc Orc you until you die to death!")

I mixed up the characters with who was playing them, I meant to attack Dusker. I belive it's actually physically impossible for me to reach Greenscales from N18. We may need a rewind, as it should've been Greenscales turn before yours, and, if allowed, I might edit my post so I actually attack someone within reach...

[Talic]

Wait a sec, terran. Glunk tripped my ready action when he got to 5 feet from me.

Unarmed strike!

(1d20+10)[24]
If hit: (1d3+8)[10]
If threat: (1d20+10)[27]
If Crit: (1d3+8)[9]

If hit, I use scorpion's grasp.

Opposed Grapple check: (1d20+14)[24]
If Successful, Enter your square and deal: (1d3+8)[10]

Read SOD's above post. If the move you announced is illegal, it's gonna have to be rewound. However, it needs a high ref to do so. Technically, the attack was illegal, and the 5 foot step was legal. However, I have no problem with agreeing to a rewind to the beginning of Glunk's turn, as long as my partner agrees. Either way, he'll need to charge, and either way, he'll need to reroll.

And both me and my partner have gold stars this match. Me for getting rid of Chile, and my partner for knocking you into 1-hit-kill territory. Only reason I went for Chile first is the invisibility option... Though the fact that he had a whopping 6 hp helped. With your 27, you're dang near impossible to 1 shot.

[chilepepper]

Umm, when I died, how was it Greenscales turn? He took a readied action moving his initiative to right before mine which means everyone else goes before him. -my bad

[theterran]

I thought he took an AoO...but I could be mistaken

[Kyeudo]

GM Kyeudo

I haven't looked over the match, but it seems both sides agree that Glunk couldn't have done what he did, so a rewind is in order.

Since SoD caught it and reported it himself, we'll give him a full rewind to the start of his turn instead of making him keep the five foot step.

[Talic]

Chile, my attack on you was an Attack of Opportunity, triggered by the reading of the scroll.

Those don't change initiative count. Thus, my turn was right after I hit you. That said, it's currently Glunk's turn, and, per Kyeudo, he has his entire turn to play with.

I'm in J19. Glunk is in M19. Dusker is in O19.

I have a readied action.

I believe that covers game state. You're up.

[SoD]

Glunk

5 foot step to N18, drawing great falchion. Attack Dusker (got it right this time!) with a 2 point power attack.

(1d20+10)[24]
(1d12+20)[28]

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HP 7/27 (owch...)
AC 15 (Touch 12, FF 13)
In Hand: Great Falchion
Location: N18
Buffs: Bull's Strength 1/30
Rage: 1/9
STR: 30 (+4 potions, +4 rage).
CON: 20.
Will: +0

Done.

[Talic]

Assuming that drops my ally, it's my turn.

If for some reason, that's not the case, disregard this (and I'll strike through it).

Free action: Drop Guisarme.
Full Round action: CHARGE! (to M19)

Melee PUNCH attack GO!

Attack: (1d20+13)[26] (+9 base, +2 rage, +2 Charge)
If Hit: (1d3+8)[10]
If threat: (1d20+13)[25]
If Crit: (1d3+8)[10]

Scorpion's Grasp (if hit)

Opposed Grapple check: (1d20+14)[34]
If won: (1d3+8)[9]

All damage is lethal.

EDIT: That should be 19 damage. No need to make the roll, in order to win the opposed check, you'd need to roll a 23 on a D20.

[Bayar]

How do you get a +20 on damage rolls, SOD ? I can only count 19.

[Talic]

I count 19 as well. 1.5 Str mod (str mod +10 right now, assuming you're potioned up and raging) is +15

Power attack for 2 = +4

That's +19. I mean, either way, you've got well over what's needed to render Dusker unconscious, but still.

[theterran]

Regardless...I'm down...and I think Talic dropped Glunk?

[Talic]

Unless glunk has some special ability, or an AC higher than 26 while raging, it looks that way.

[SoD]

Yeah, I'm down. And for the final point, did you count the +1 damage from the reckless trait? (-1 atk, +1 dmg).

[Bayar]

Yeah, I'm down. And for the final point, did you count the +1 damage from the reckless trait? (-1 atk, +1 dmg).

Oh...wow, you are reckless...

[Talic]

It works on so many levels, lol.

[Mephit]

Greenscales and Dusker are the victors!

Dusker gets a -5% res reduction for winning! Which is to say, he still has to pay nothing! Huzzah!