What does WH40K mean to you?

[Anonymouswizard]

The gods do still have their more positive sides, they just get downplayed these days in the actual descriptions of the gods. The timeline and novels mention their more merciful sides from time to time.

Like Nurgle answering a prayer for rain with a monsoon. That turned a planet into a disease ridden swamp.

That's the Papa Nurgle I know

Can you give me a recent example of Khorne being anything but a blood crazed berserker? I'm curious to see if they're still giving him depth.

[golentan]

AnonWiz: Whether you think it's appropriate or not, Love is in Slaanesh's portfolio, along with Poetry and Music and all sorts of other stuff.

Weirdest one for me? Pregnancy is covered by Khorne. Guess because it's making a future soldier.

But yeah. The Chaos Gods are fueled by positive emotion as well as negative, Raimun. It's just that the nature of chaos is to corrupt. Those positive emotions are the gateway to the full blown chaos corruption that the ruinous powers thrive off of. The reason that the Imperium cracks on any deviation from approved orthodoxy is because straying from the path even by a fraction invites the wolves. There's a reason that the inquisition is quoted as, in response to the protestations of innocence by a (mid-torture) interrogatee, shouting "INNOCENCE PROVES NOTHING!"

[Gamgee]

Honestly the Warhammer 40k setting needs a huge shake up at all levels. It's stale. Zombie stale. I just started a Tau army last year and I've already stopped pretty much without completing it. Oh sure for some fun to build and paint I'll buy something once a year or less but that's about it.

A year and a half ago I would have told you I loved it until Space Marines and the Imperium of man hit over saturation levels for me. Imperium army this, horus heresy that, imperium faction this, 80k space marines codexs, 70 human based rpg's later and I'm tapped out at it all. It was fun for a time, but the setting changes so little is there ANY need to play, explore, or experience it past the initial rush? Nope. It will always be 40k. No need to wonder what the status quo is because it will always be the same. Good old wake up at 5 in the morning Space Marine who checks in for work with his equally early Chaos Space Marine buddy at work to play some rock em sock em robots before hitting the usual work routine then going home arguing about who's favorite sport team is better. Both of them just hitting middle age and that sort of feeling irrelevant phase of life known as a mid life crisis.

That's what 40k means to me. This sort of weary feeling I get when an old geezer goes off on why his time was better or tells the exact same story for the 50th time.

I'm already feeling tired recanting these dreary thoughts.

I play maybe 3-5 games of table top a year with 99% of us using little scraps of paper as proxies. Works just as well for the sort of casual cheap game we want to play. We all have a few key models we really like but that's it really. Only one of us collects and paints a full army. Even Dawn of War 2 the best of the 40k games in a long time was bad. REALLY bad as a video game. Right now I've never felt Warhammer 40k is growing so close to irrelevance to the wider geek/nerd community. It's so stuck in its own microcosm with few new players coming in. It has come to resemble the very Imperium it depicts. Which is sad since it has so much potential.

[Raimun]

The gods do still have their more positive sides, they just get downplayed these days in the actual descriptions of the gods. The timeline and novels mention their more merciful sides from time to time.

Like Nurgle answering a prayer for rain with a monsoon. That turned a planet into a disease ridden swamp.

And that is a moral thing to do... how?

Just because an action might have some minor, accidental positive effects for some people, it doesn't mean the action is still altruistic. In that example, the rain might benefit some farmers for one harvest (or two) but eventually the very rain that helped them will be their undoing. Of course, some farmers might be able to escape the planet with the profits of exceptional harvest but even that doesn't still count. Nurgle would still prefer if they were infected like everyone else.

I don't like this when people want their Bad Guy-faction to be "less bad". Just because they feel uneasy that this powerhouse got power by highly questionable methods, they want to basically water them down. That way, they could play their "Flesh Eating Undead Blood Hell Hate Demons" but "they wouldn't be rude about it, you know".

Besides, we all know what happens when you try to make your monsters more symphatetic: Twilight Vampires.

[Grim Portent]

That's the Papa Nurgle I know

Can you give me a recent example of Khorne being anything but a blood crazed berserker? I'm curious to see if they're still giving him depth.

Only things I can think of in 40k is giving people power so they can protect stuff, but that always winds up with them going mad and destroying stuff.

In fantasy he did resurrect his dead girlfriend as a daemon prince when she perished before reaching his realm.

And that is a moral thing to do... how?

Just because an action might have some minor, accidental positive effects for some people, it doesn't mean the action is still altruistic. In that example, the rain might benefit some farmers for one harvest (or two) but eventually the very rain that helped them will be their undoing. Of course, some farmers might be able to escape the planet with the profits of exceptional harvest but even that doesn't still count. Nurgle would still prefer if they were infected like everyone else.

I don't like this when people want their Bad Guy-faction to be "less bad". Just because they feel uneasy that this powerhouse got power by highly questionable methods, they want to basically water them down. That way, they could play their "Flesh Eating Undead Blood Hell Hate Demons" but "they wouldn't be rude about it, you know".

Besides, we all know what happens when you try to make your monsters more symphatetic: Twilight Vampires.

It's not supposed to be moral, the chaos gods aren't good or evil, they just are. Nurgle in that example is supposed to be demonstrating his generous and caring side, answering a poor mans prayers out of genuine kindness but not understanding the difference between what the farmers wanted and what they got.

[Anonymouswizard]

And that is a moral thing to do... how?

Just because an action might have some minor, accidental positive effects for some people, it doesn't mean the action is still altruistic. In that example, the rain might benefit some farmers for one harvest (or two) but eventually the very rain that helped them will be their undoing. Of course, some farmers might be able to escape the planet with the profits of exceptional harvest but even that doesn't still count. Nurgle would still prefer if they were infected like everyone else.

That's a one-dimensional view of burgle. Burgle loves the farmer and loves the crops, so he and his yield survive despite being infected with death plague 40000. He just doesn't understand why they might not be completely happy with that.

I don't like this when people want their Bad Guy-faction to be "less bad". Just because they feel uneasy that this powerhouse got power by highly questionable methods, they want to basically water them down. That way, they could play their "Flesh Eating Undead Blood Hell Hate Demons" but "they wouldn't be rude about it, you know".

Some of us do not like cackling villains one after another with no redeeming qualities. While I love them in comedies (such as Mr Gently Benevolent), they so often fall to being one dimensional characters. I don't want flat villains, they just don't intrigue me.

Besides, we all know what happens when you try to make your monsters more symphatetic: Twilight Vampires.

Or Vampire the Masquerade. Or *gasp*, Mary Shelly's Frankenstein. Or Paradise Lost.

Only things I can think of in 40k is giving people power so they can protect stuff, but that always winds up with them going mad and destroying stuff.

In fantasy he did resurrect his dead girlfriend as a daemon prince when she perished before reaching his realm.

Once again, Fantasy has the better universe.

[Grim Portent]

Once again, Fantasy has the better universe.

It's really just that it's stuck closer to the roots of the chaos gods, while 40k has shifted it's focus more to bleak and despondent scale. Compare Ahriman to Vilitch as Tzeentch champions for example.

Ahriman: Tricked and duped by Tzeentch, everything he cared about has been destroyed and he has been basnished by his gene-father. Spends his life gathering magic lore to try and become a god.

Vilitch: Prayed to the gods to be given a chance to escape his abusive tribe and family and avenge himself on them. Fused with his brutish brother's body and given greater magic than some daemons by Tzeentch. Proceeds to butcher his tribe and burn them with magical flames.

Which of these Tzeentch's sounds more benevolent to his champions?

[Anonymouswizard]

It's really just that it's stuck closer to the roots of the chaos gods, while 40k has shifted it's focus more to bleak and despondent scale. Compare Ahriman to Vilitch as Tzeentch champions for example.

Ahriman: Tricked and duped by Tzeentch, everything he cared about has been destroyed and he has been basnished by his gene-father. Spends his life gathering magic lore to try and become a god.

Vilitch: Prayed to the gods to be given a chance to escape his abusive tribe and family and avenge himself on them. Fused with his brutish brother's body and given greater magic than some daemons by Tzeentch. Proceeds to butcher his tribe and burn them with magical flames.

Which of these Tzeentch's sounds more benevolent to his champions?

The 40k one obviously.

Bare in mind that fantasy is also less popular (despite being the better universe and better game), so they don't feel the need to 'update it as much.

Fantasy is also more hopeful. Even fractured as they are the good guys will still band together when chaos gets out of hand. And most of the time they don't have to stand together because chaos is even more fractured in fantasy than in 40k (I can't remember a mention of the minor chaos gods as serious entities in the last 2+ editions of 40k, whereas in fantasy their followers are a threat.

[Blackhawk748]

Honestly the Warhammer 40k setting needs a huge shake up at all levels. It's stale. Zombie stale. I just started a Tau army last year and I've already stopped pretty much without completing it. Oh sure for some fun to build and paint I'll buy something once a year or less but that's about it.

A year and a half ago I would have told you I loved it until Space Marines and the Imperium of man hit over saturation levels for me. Imperium army this, horus heresy that, imperium faction this, 80k space marines codexs, 70 human based rpg's later and I'm tapped out at it all. It was fun for a time, but the setting changes so little is there ANY need to play, explore, or experience it past the initial rush? Nope. It will always be 40k. No need to wonder what the status quo is because it will always be the same. Good old wake up at 5 in the morning Space Marine who checks in for work with his equally early Chaos Space Marine buddy at work to play some rock em sock em robots before hitting the usual work routine then going home arguing about who's favorite sport team is better. Both of them just hitting middle age and that sort of feeling irrelevant phase of life known as a mid life crisis.

That's what 40k means to me. This sort of weary feeling I get when an old geezer goes off on why his time was better or tells the exact same story for the 50th time.

I can agree with all of this, the over arching fluff hasnt made a significant step forward since 5th edition. Hell the Game Space Marine added more to the fluff in one game then GW has the past 2 editions. For those of you who don't know Space Marine is set in M42, so that means either Cato Sicarius is dead or hes been made Captain of another Company, or he was put in charge of a new Space Marine Chapter. The point is SOMETHING CHANGED!! It also helps that Titus is awesome.

[Grim Portent]

The problem with trying to advance the setting is that they've written themselves into a corner with it.

The setting is poised on Abaddon's next crusade, all the fluff points to it being the last one. Prophecies in setting dictate that it's now or never for Abaddon, the biggest and baddest of the many BBGs in 40k.

To advance the setting would need either an End Times for 40k, or for Abaddon to fail and be replaced by a new character. Both are big risks for a setting with a huge and dedicated fanbase. Either they destroy huge chunks of the setting and kill a bunch of beloved characters, which is causing a huge amount of whinging among fantasy players, or they wind the tension of chaos down to basically zilch unless they can create a really good replacement for Abaddon.

Of course Abaddon has already failed to maintain any tension because of all the memes around him, but it's still safest to stick with the BBG they know is reliably accepted.

[Blackhawk748]

The problem with trying to advance the setting is that they've written themselves into a corner with it.

The setting is poised on Abaddon's next crusade, all the fluff points to it being the last one. Prophecies in setting dictate that it's now or never for Abaddon, the biggest and baddest of the many BBGs in 40k.

To advance the setting would need either an End Times for 40k, or for Abaddon to fail and be replaced by a new character. Both are big risks for a setting with a huge and dedicated fanbase. Either they destroy huge chunks of the setting and kill a bunch of beloved characters, which is causing a huge amount of whinging among fantasy players, or they wind the tension of chaos down to basically zilch unless they can create a really good replacement for Abaddon.

Of course Abaddon has already failed to maintain any tension because of all the memes around him, but it's still safest to stick with the BBG they know is reliably accepted.

From what i understand the End Times are being pretty well recieved by Fantasy players, it also helps im a Vampire Counts player and i love Undead Legions.

On the subject of killing main characters, so what? Fantasy has done it, hell 3 of my Vampire Counts heroes are dead (like dead dead) i can still use them. They've already proven that just because they died in fluff it doesnt mean that they cant still be used on the tabletop, but for some weird reason thats a no no in 40k. Personally i would love to see them re-stat Lord Solar Macharius, or to watch Marnius Calgar or Chaplain Cassius die like the Badasses i know they are.

Hell theres a great piece of fan fiction in which Creed lures Abaddon into a trap with himself as bait, Abaddon is about to kill him and all Creed is doing is grinning like an idiot. Abaddon asks why (in his weird gravely voice) and Creed just points up. Que Cyclonic torpedoes. Cadia is being obliterated around them, Abaddon's legions are crippled and Abaddon's last words are "CREEEEEEEEED!!!" So in summation, Creed: Dead, Abaddon: Dead, Cadia: Gone, Chaos: Crippled, Fun Entertaining Fluff That Goes Back To A Bit Of Their Old Humor? Check.

Thats actually a thing i think they've forgotten, WH 40k used to be funny, like there were a bunch of tongue in cheek jokes buried around (unless you were Necrons or Nids, cuz your not funny) and the Imperium was a living Heavy Metal Album. It was great. So ya, im all for moving the fluff forward, and as im an Ork player that doesnt even use named characters i dont particularly care if i lose some, as long as their death is awesome.

[golentan]

It's okay if chaos doesn't win to advance the story. Nids fall, everyone dies.

[Blackhawk748]

It's okay if chaos doesn't win to advance the story. Nids fall, everyone dies.

And im fine with that, hell someone did a WH 50k setting, and sweet baby jesus is that setting dark.

[golentan]

I just have this recurring fantasy, where Abbadon's next crusade goes off without a hitch, he rampages his way all the way to earth, and arrives to find the whole planet has been tyrannoformed, with the biggest tyranid of all time trying to pick a little bit of emperor out of its teeth. And he just stops, stares, and shouts "What am I supposed to do now?!"

[Hiro Protagonest]

It's okay if chaos doesn't win to advance the story. Nids fall, everyone dies.

But the Nids were secretly created by Omegon to distract Terra's forces while he sneaks into the throne room to revive the emperor and save humanity!

...Okay probably not. >_>

[Blackhawk748]

But the Nids were secretly created by Omegon to distract Terra's forces while he sneaks into the throne room to revive the emperor and save humanity!

...Okay probably not. >_>

Hey, we all know Alpha Legion is a bunch of closet loyalists.

[The Glyphstone]

40K for me is utter futility, bleak nihilism, and dark depressing hopelessness cranked so far up past 11 that it wraps around into glorious black comedy. Where merciless autocratic Catholic Space Nazis are the designated protagonists, and their brutally suppressive society is actually necessary to stop humans from becoming demon chow. Where the closest thing to 'good guys' is a bunch of mecha-driving space communists with hooves, who employ mind control on subordinate races and mass sterilization to quell unrest in conquered populations. Where an immensely powerful dedicated anti-theist/atheist has been crippled and subsequently deified to the point where he may be an actual god in his own right. Generals who clear minefields with infantry are hailed as visionaries for using a disposable, renewable resource instead of valuable and expensive equipment. And, of course, where red ones actually do go fasta.

[Hiro Protagonest]

and their brutally suppressive society is actually necessary to stop humans from becoming demon chow.

Ehh, there's Interex...

[Lord Raziere]

Ehh, there's Interex...

See, this is why I wouldn't play in it, it does actually acknowledge that if this actually happened, everything would be fine, but it didn't, because the universe is just grimdark like that, so whats the point of trying, of playing in this universe? If I want to play a tech-priest, I can just make a highly religious Artificer or something, if I want to play an Inquisitor its a viable DnD class, if I want to worship gods of chaos I can just make four Chaotic Good deity expies, and if I want to play something like a Space Marine, I have Mutants and Masterminds, and so on and so forth. any attempt at bringing back enlightenment or whatever would just result in Tzeentch worship, shortly followed by stupid complex plans then death by Space Marine.

we need a nobledark version of this setting or something so that victory is actually possible.

[Reprimand]

It means I get to make slannesh sisters of battle and play them as two different armies!

Sisters of battle/chaos space marines

It means I can convert an entire guard army to look like girl scouts and convert their grenades to look like cookies!

It means I can run 100+ guardsmen or 15 leman russ tanks as a troop choice

It means I can run dark eldar wych cult into your army on turn 2 and eat you alive.

it means I can play tau and make my friend cry bitter tears as his tries desperately to attack my stealth suits with his Chaos Termies while I kite him in circles

[Raimun]

Seriously. Chaos wants to destroy and/or defile. There is no room for interpretation. That is their sthick. All your points are invalid.

40K for me is utter futility, bleak nihilism, and dark depressing hopelessness cranked so far up past 11 that it wraps around into glorious black comedy. Where merciless autocratic Catholic Space Nazis are the designated protagonists, and their brutally suppressive society is actually necessary to stop humans from becoming demon chow. Where the closest thing to 'good guys' is a bunch of mecha-driving space communists with hooves, who employ mind control on subordinate races and mass sterilization to quell unrest in conquered populations. Where an immensely powerful dedicated anti-theist/atheist has been crippled and subsequently deified to the point where he may be an actual god in his own right. Generals who clear minefields with infantry are hailed as visionaries for using a disposable, renewable resource instead of valuable and expensive equipment. And, of course, where red ones actually do go fasta.

Thank you. It is not a good place for anyone. Except the orks. They like the whole endless warfare.

[Raimun]

That's a one-dimensional view of burgle. Burgle loves the farmer and loves the crops, so he and his yield survive despite being infected with death plague 40000. He just doesn't understand why they might not be completely happy with that.

You are deluded. Nurgle loves only the farmers who have the rot.

Some of us do not like cackling villains one after another with no redeeming qualities. While I love them in comedies (such as Mr Gently Benevolent), they so often fall to being one dimensional characters. I don't want flat villains, they just don't intrigue me.

Villains need to be villains. Just because a villain might pet one puppy, it doesn't mean he's not a monster that should be killed with extreme prejudice.

Or Vampire the Masquerade. Or *gasp*, Mary Shelly's Frankenstein. Or Paradise Lost.

They are different things and you know it. Some "Vampire the Masquarede"-vampires deserve death more than Chaos cultists. Some of those vampires might be able to live lives that aren't about sacrificing the innocent. Mary Shelly's Frankenstein (the monster, not the professor) did not choose to be a monster, he was made as one. Don't know anything about Paradise Lost.

And Chaos cultist would sacrifice their humanity and souls if they got bigger muscles out of the deal.

Once again, Fantasy has the better universe.

I actually do prefer Warhammer to 40k.

Anyway, no offense, I wouldn't want you to fight alongside me in any Warhammer game. You seem like a traitor and heretic.

[Blackhawk748]

See, this is why I wouldn't play in it, it does actually acknowledge that if this actually happened, everything would be fine, but it didn't, because the universe is just grimdark like that, so whats the point of trying, of playing in this universe? If I want to play a tech-priest, I can just make a highly religious Artificer or something, if I want to play an Inquisitor its a viable DnD class, if I want to worship gods of chaos I can just make four Chaotic Good deity expies, and if I want to play something like a Space Marine, I have Mutants and Masterminds, and so on and so forth. any attempt at bringing back enlightenment or whatever would just result in Tzeentch worship, shortly followed by stupid complex plans then death by Space Marine.

we need a nobledark version of this setting or something so that victory is actually possible.

You should check out Brighthammer

[Reprimand]

I still say they should make rules for corrupted sisters of battle or chaos corrupted armies in general!

imagine talon-gaunts with demonic mutation and mark of khorne so silly : P

[golentan]

I still say they should make rules for corrupted sisters of battle or chaos corrupted armies in general!

With my dual T armies (Tau and Tyranid) I'd like more opportunity to represent their ability to subvert enemies. Rogue humans having signed up to work for the Greater Good for example, using the statline of an imperial guardsman but armed with a pulse carbine/rifle (we know they exist in Canon), or Genestealer Hybrid Armies where maybe you can't field vehicles or walkers, but can field infantry from an enemy faction as an infantry choice as long as you field at least one unit of genestealers.

[Blackhawk748]

Lost and the Damned forever!!

And on the Genestealer cult thing. Kill Team has rules for them, but as its kill team your only playing at like 300 points, though they are a lot of fun, because holy crap purestrain genestealers. Note that i havent gotten a Tyranid codex since 4th, because the new ones made me sad.

[Shoggy]

40k is about soldiers fighting for their lives in a universe so much bigger than them that you need scientific notation to do any real comparisons. It's about mud, blood, alien and daemonic horrors, and holding the line.

Oh and I guess there's space marines, but guardsmen are way cooler than them.

[Lord Raziere]

You should check out Brighthammer

That has the opposite problem in that its so bright, that I wonder why heroes are even needed if things are good already.

[The Glyphstone]

Seriously. Chaos wants to destroy and/or defile. There is no room for interpretation. That is their sthick. All your points are invalid.

See, that's not grimdark enough. The Chaos Gods are not just the expression of outright negative and destructive concepts, but otherwise positive concepts that have been warped to negative ends. Nurgle does love everyone, not just the farmers with the rot, so in 40K, love is an evil emotion, because it slightly empowers Nurgle. Hope is evil because it falls into the portfolio of Tzeentch. Khorne's gotten seriously flanderized over time, but at one point he had Honor and Courage under his purview. Slaanesh means anyone who takes Pride in their accomplishments or skill, or anyone trying to perfect themselves and their talents, is at risk of becoming corrupted.

TLDR: The god of Hope is Lawful Evil. That basically says all it needs to for me.

Thank you. It is not a good place for anyone. Except the orks. They like the whole endless warfare.

Sure, but that doesn't make it objectively better for them. They're a discarded, abandoned superweapon left behind from a war that ended millions of years ago, with no guidance to do anything except what they were built for any no ability to ever change and do something different. They think it's the best thing ever, but in reality they're possibly the worst off of all the non-Tyranid races, because they can't even conceive of a future that is not exactly the same as the present.

With my dual T armies (Tau and Tyranid) I'd like more opportunity to represent their ability to subvert enemies. Rogue humans having signed up to work for the Greater Good for example, using the statline of an imperial guardsman but armed with a pulse carbine/rifle (we know they exist in Canon), or Genestealer Hybrid Armies where maybe you can't field vehicles or walkers, but can field infantry from an enemy faction as an infantry choice as long as you field at least one unit of genestealers.

It's mechanically just an Imperial Guard army with Tau paint schemes and decals, using Fire Warriors as officers, but otherwise that is my army. If I owned any actual Tau models anymore, I could use them as Allies of Convenience, I believe.

[Blackhawk748]

That has the opposite problem in that its so bright, that I wonder why heroes are even needed if things are good already.

Huh, i thought there were enough problems that i could have fun playing. Be part of His Imperial Majesty's Secret Service and go deal with those nasty Eldar, Crazed Cultists (of the Universe Destroyer), the Most Evil and Foul Tau, and the Nids, because Genestealer cults are still a thing.

I agree that it is pretty bright and shiny but theres enough problems that id feel useful.