EMPIRE! CWBG VIII: It's Not An Event Without A Few Corpses

[QuintonBeck]

I am in 100% agreement with what you're laying down there Riz. My point of order is that the openness to communication needs to come from both sides, in a war for example since it's the simplest, the attacker and defender. The whole Zhuang thing for instance, I tried to talk to you quite a bit through PMs and Skype throughout the round that was happening about different ideas/compromises/etc. and your only response was a complete disdain for me getting involved in "your stuff" I wasn't doing that to win or lose, I was doing it for IC reasons but you didn't want to talk about it with me privately and eventually exploded publicly that I was attempting to strong arm you or somesuch in the OOC thread despite me trying to talk to you for at least a week. I don't hold such against you, especially understanding you were struggling through difficult things at the time, but you can perhaps see how after a complete failure to communicate even attempting to communicate might seem a bit pointless on the whole?

Anyway, I don't want to dredge up old issues again, but I've generally found most players to be communicable and personally don't see too great an issue there. Plus, if someone is doing something involving your nation that they haven't talked to you about you can always begin that conversation as well. Would it be more polite for them to start said conversation, sure, but I don't think it can all be laid on them for not doing it either.

[Rizban]

I am in 100% agreement with what you're laying down there Riz. My point of order is that the openness to communication needs to come from both sides, in a war for example since it's the simplest, the attacker and defender. The whole Zhuang thing for instance, I tried to talk to you quite a bit through PMs and Skype throughout the round that was happening about different ideas/compromises/etc. and your only response was a complete disdain for me getting involved in "your stuff" I wasn't doing that to win or lose, I was doing it for IC reasons but you didn't want to talk about it with me privately and eventually exploded publicly that I was attempting to strong arm you or somesuch in the OOC thread despite me trying to talk to you for at least a week. I don't hold such against you, especially understanding you were struggling through difficult things at the time, but you can perhaps see how after a complete failure to communicate even attempting to communicate might seem a bit pointless on the whole?

Anyway, I don't want to dredge up old issues again, but I've generally found most players to be communicable and personally don't see too great an issue there. Plus, if someone is doing something involving your nation that they haven't talked to you about you can always begin that conversation as well. Would it be more polite for them to start said conversation, sure, but I don't think it can all be laid on them for not doing it either.

The main issue I had, as I stated at the time, was that it was ill-timed and set right in the middle to mess up the thing we'd been working on for awhile at the time. Yeah, I wasn't terribly reasonable about it, and I should have handled it differently, but I thought we had agreed to something of a delay, at which point I would have been okay with it. I'm not saying I was in the right on that, because, yeah, I screwed up on some stuff. The problem there was lack of communication more than the attack itself.

[QuintonBeck]

The main issue I had, as I stated at the time, was that it was ill-timed and set right in the middle to mess up the thing we'd been working on for awhile at the time. Yeah, I wasn't terribly reasonable about it, and I should have handled it differently, but I thought we had agreed to something of a delay, at which point I would have been okay with it. I'm not saying I was in the right on that, because, yeah, I screwed up on some stuff. The problem there was lack of communication more than the attack itself.

You're right, and that's another reason I don't take issue cause I was definitely in the wrong as much on my side as well. Neither of us were wholly right nor wholly wrong and perhaps greater communication would have helped.

That in mind, a way to facilitate communication isn't completely clear either since a pretty valid point is sometimes you don't know when or if you're going to get involved with something until late in the game/round. Morph mentioned discussing wars a round before they'd even take place but that would just make long rounds seem even longer in my mind and prevent others from joining in conflicts should they have an unexpected change of position IC from a round opener or some such.

It's not the easiest situation to solve. I suppose making it clear that OOC discussion is welcome regarding anything is a good move but I don't have any great ideas beyond that.

[Aedilred]

There is a saying that war is the last stage of diplomacy. I don't think I ever actually appreciated what that meant until playing this game. Solving things diplomatically is the way things are generally done, but if a complete impasse is reached and the current situation is unsatisfactory... well, resolving that sort of thing is what war is basically for. Of course a compromise should be reached if possible, but if there's no compromise that's acceptable to both parties, then without the option of going to war, there's effectively no way that will ever be resolved.

And to be honest, ongoing disagreement and continual butting of heads over a given issue is probably more poisonous to OOC relationships than an actual war is. Admittedly, now the rounds are longer, wars take about a month to resolve assuming a two-round conflict, which is longer than might be ideal, but once they're done, at least that's a resolution of sorts and we can all move forward. Otherwise some issues never get properly addressed and there's simmering resentment - on both sides - which lasts forever and leads to all sorts of stuff OOC we don't really want. Which isn't to say that war is great, but it's not always the worst thing in the world, whether IC, OOC or indeed, in real life.

Edit: adjustment made to a couple of the battle scores in the round opener to reflect reality, copy-paste errors, and an incorrectly halved military score. No overall battle results are affected.

The round opener has also been updated with exploration results.

[Sorrcerousflux]

I assume that ill be coming into play this round correct? When I do the Nix are going to come into seafaring peoples around the Cairmine sea(I believe thats the name anyway) and give everybody a chance for diplomacy, just contact me via PM to discuss RP.

[Rizban]

Looking at the numbers in Salteire, your math is wrong, Aedilred. The defenders should have a 34, not a 33.

Had the extra 1800 militia counted (either as +1 or +.9) instead of being completely ignored, the extra +0.5 from the Holy Order would have changed that to either a 35.4 or 35.5 and a win for the Priory.

[ImperatorV]

Which, frankly, is kind of rude, since it gives people no time to react or even know you've done stuff against them until after it's been completely resolved by the round's end.

Ok, now this is just insulting. Unlike some people in this thread, I have stuff besides one forum game going on, and it takes a lot of time to do those things. I mean, Quinton often has to send me PMs late into Saturday night to remind me to make actions at all, and I ended up staying up way later than I should have last night to make sure I went through with a deal that had been promised to some other players. Furthermore, because of the dynamics of the Triumvirate; the fact that we consult each other and discuss every move, and often hold lengthy discussions with other players as well if our actions will affect them, means that I don't even know what actions to take until later on. Again, Quinton is largely responsible for making sure I do them at all by making a list near the end of the round of what has to be done.


On the topic of the huge argument: if I was ever surprise attacked by a player in the middle of doing something else, I wouldn't throw a fit about it. And I wouldn't care if they hadn't warned me. Why? Because to me this game is meant to be a simulation (using the term loosely) of commanding a nation in a fantastic world. And politics don't go smoothly always, diplomacy often fails, and nations don't consult each other over every little detail. I personally think, Rizban, that you are way to inflexible. Why not take these things you didn't want to happen, and turn them into an awesome story? You don't see Aedil and Durk last round lodging complaints that they weren't warned of Guilder's involvement. They ran with it. You can't expect everything that happens in this game, and that's part of what makes it fun. You'll never fully enjoy any type of multiplayer story game if you can't say "screw what I was doing; let's create something new and better."

Additionally, if you had that attitude, I feel people would be more open to negotiating with you on things. I think there are some of us that are actually afraid to talk to you about stuff, because they are worried you won't like what they want to do and will make a stink about it OOC.

[Aedilred]

Looking at the numbers in Salteire, your math is wrong, Aedilred. The defenders should have a 34, not a 33.

Goddamit, you're right *smacks self upside the head*. I think I forgot the plate armour when doing the final addition.

I assume that ill be coming into play this round correct? When I do the Nix are going to come into seafaring peoples around the Cairmine sea(I believe thats the name anyway) and give everybody a chance for diplomacy, just contact me via PM to discuss RP.

The Carmine Sea is what I/Jarrlanders call it. I only started doing that when I needed a new name for my Great Kingdom and thought it made sense to name it after the sea it effectively surrounds; before that it didn't have a name, and IC other people may well have other names for it.

You don't see Aedil and Durk last round lodging complaints that they weren't warned of Guilder's involvement.

To be fair, I was a bit annoyed at the time, and may have made some remarks to that regard, but I got over it.

[DurkBlanston]

To be fair, I was a bit annoyed at the time, and may have made some remarks to that regard, but I got over it.

Yeah, we definitely complained a bit to each other in PMs but that was pretty much it.

[Jeriah]

People don't always respond to PMs.

[Morph Bark]

[snip]

Lots of stuff--most of which I've said in the past as well.

On another note, Rizban, your inbox is full.

[moossabi]

I am back and... What the heck. I didn't know that someone else was intercepting my troops. And why didn't the interceptor (I cannot remember who it was) tell me to back off? I'd have been open to turning around and heading home. So: overall question: WHY?

[DurkBlanston]

I am back and... What the heck. I didn't know that someone else was intercepting my troops. And why didn't the interceptor (I cannot remember who it was) tell me to back off? I'd have been open to turning around and heading home. So: overall question: WHY?

You sent troops and ships to get involved in a war against the Salterri Imperium, the Salterri Imperium stopped you because that would have been bad for them. That's why. I'm confused why you're confused? Sending troops usually means you expect there's a possibility they might die.

[Rizban]

Ok, now this is just insulting.

Sorry you took that as insulting. It wasn't meant as a direct insult against you but as descriptive of my views of the general action of editing in hostile actions last minute with no recourse against them.

You sent troops and ships to get involved in a war against the Salterri Imperium, the Salterri Imperium stopped you because that would have been bad for them. That's why. I'm confused why you're confused? Sending troops usually means you expect there's a possibility they might die.

I think this is another clear case of communications failure.

Edit: Fixed so that the quotes to which I'm responding are actually quoted.

[Lord_Burch]

I am back and... What the heck. I didn't know that someone else was intercepting my troops. And why didn't the interceptor (I cannot remember who it was) tell me to back off? I'd have been open to turning around and heading home. So: overall question: WHY?

You sent troops and ships to get involved in a war against the Salterri Imperium, the Salterri Imperium stopped you because that would have been bad for them. That's why. I'm confused why you're confused? Sending troops usually means you expect there's a possibility they might die.

Probably because A) it happened less than twelve hours before the round ended- to a player who normally isn't very active, and one who had stated multiple times he wasn't going to be able to respond to anything after a certain point- B) he lost 4000 troops who were somehow unable to actually participate in the battle, but still died. Magic, I guess?

Sorry if I'm wrong there, moos.

[Aedilred]

Probably because A) it happened less than twelve hours before the round ended- to a player who normally isn't very active, and one who had stated multiple times he wasn't going to be able to respond to anything after a certain point- B) he lost 4000 troops who were somehow unable to actually participate in the battle, but still died. Magic, I guess?

Sorry if I'm wrong there, moos.

He lost 2,000 troops total. 1,000 of those were the naval troops which fought, the other 1,000 were the army troops being carried by the ships when they were attacked. The remaining 2,000 casualties were disregarded. There is no precedent on this, admittedly, but on the principle that the ships were transporting troops (why they were involved at all) and that naval troops carry army ones at a 1:1 ratio, it was felt that that was the way to handle it - rather than the transported troops magically disappearing, or larger numbers of transported troops being killed (up to and including all of them).

I do agree that late military actions are a problem in principle (I don't think anyone disagrees), but I don't think there are any entirely innocent parties in that regard, even in this case: the Salterri attack on the Alydaxis ferry was a late response to a late response to a response to a response of which in itself no notice was given except in the actions post itself.

[Sorrcerousflux]

It seems like all of these can be prevented with warning, co-operation, and discussion.

Point A. dont procrastinate until posting day, try to have a grasp of efficient time consumption.

point B. this is an interactive story, work together for a better tale instead of railroading or overpowering everyone you dont see eye-to-eye-with.

Point C. discuss with your allies, and the person your attacking (invading, or simply working against) why, how, and when youll be doing something; so the narrative works for everyone.

thats what I took out of these arguments anyway

[Rizban]

It seems like all of these can be prevented with warning, co-operation, and discussion.

Point A. dont procrastinate until posting day, try to have a grasp of efficient time consumption.

point B. this is an interactive story, work together for a better tale instead of railroading or overpowering everyone you dont see eye-to-eye-with.

Point C. discuss with your allies, and the person your attacking (invading, or simply working against) why, how, and when youll be doing something; so the narrative works for everyone.

thats what I took out of these arguments anyway

Yep, pretty much...

[Morph Bark]

It seems like all of these can be prevented with warning, co-operation, and discussion.

Point A. dont procrastinate until posting day, try to have a grasp of efficient time consumption.

point B. this is an interactive story, work together for a better tale instead of railroading or overpowering everyone you dont see eye-to-eye-with.

Point C. discuss with your allies, and the person your attacking (invading, or simply working against) why, how, and when youll be doing something; so the narrative works for everyone.

thats what I took out of these arguments anyway

And with that, I think we can call things closed for now. Good summary of things.

If anyone has anything they feel they should really say on this matter, they can PM me about it. If it's something regarding rulings, I'll take it up with the other GMs. Any rulings about any wars this round were provided by someone other than me, as to provide a neutral third party.


Also, I've been sending out some PMs to invite people to an event. Some will be personalized, others perhaps less so. I'll post the link to the event in this thread, as well as in my actions post when I get the thread up, which should be tomorrow.

[Aedilred]

On a related note, I was looking over your map again and noticed that the region you call the Green Sea I call the Black Sea. What you call the Black Sea I call the Outer Sea. Just to clear up what I'm talking about for future reference.

Aha, I was working from the text descriptions and trying to work out what was what; obviously I got that wrong. I'll change that next time I edit the map. I think you mention something about a Green Sea somewhere in your region writeup though?

Also, do you have any objection to my writing up a fluff depiction of the Battle of Tempestia?

Not at all!

[SamBurke]

I believe there was mention of making all decimals/fractions round down and conservatism is probably wiser to assume than over inflating the numbers so I'd go with rounding down.

This makes no sense... round to what's closer, especially on something as close as 1.8 to 2 (as opposed to 1.8>0...)

I should have 5k troops in Ri Chugang, not 4k.

I also haven't gotten credit for the past two rounds' troop buildup (+2 aerial units, +1 naval unit, +1 land unit, which died, so is irrelevant).

Looking at the numbers in Salteire, your math is wrong, Aedilred. The defenders should have a 34, not a 33.

Had the extra 1800 militia counted (either as +1 or +.9) instead of being completely ignored, the extra +0.5 from the Holy Order would have changed that to either a 35.4 or 35.5 and a win for the Priory.

I'm gonna go ahead and protest a choice of 1.8>0, not just because of the result... because of the mathematical absurdity.

Yeah, we definitely complained a bit to each other in PMs but that was pretty much it.

Oh I definitely heard quite a bit from others, and some in the OOC. That said, it wasn't bad, and I didn't mind.

It seems like all of these can be prevented with warning, co-operation, and discussion.

Point A. dont procrastinate until posting day, try to have a grasp of efficient time consumption.

point B. this is an interactive story, work together for a better tale instead of railroading or overpowering everyone you dont see eye-to-eye-with.

Point C. discuss with your allies, and the person your attacking (invading, or simply working against) why, how, and when youll be doing something; so the narrative works for everyone.

thats what I took out of these arguments anyway

You, sir, will do well in this game. I look forward to the inclusion of someone with your wisdom.

[Lord_Burch]

This makes no sense... round to what's closer, especially on something as close as 1.8 to 2 (as opposed to 1.8>0...)
...
I'm gonna go ahead and protest a choice of 1.8>0, not just because of the result... because of the mathematical absurdity.

I had made a post basically pointing this out, though in regards to unit losses. In short I said numbers should be straight rounded- neither up nor down- though my post was ignored and subsequently buried.

[Aedilred]

I had made a post basically pointing this out, though in regards to unit losses. In short I said numbers should be straight rounded- neither up nor down- though my post was ignored and subsequently buried.

You can't straight round odd numbers to even ones (or half numbers to whole ones; same difference), so you need a rule on rounding for unit losses at least.

On other notes, I have a couple of questions. First, what are the basic tenants of the LoF faith, as received by Clovis from Emryn? Who is the Avatar, where does he live, what is a good Burner (or whatever they're called) supposed to do, etc. If you don't tell me, I'll probably start making random junk up.

The Avatar is a girl (probably now in her late teens/early 20s?) living in Calorum, where the LoF faith is now effectively based. Her mother appeared mysteriously in Niskovia a while ago. I don't think she's been named officially, although some might have suspicions about her true identity.

The previous Avatar was Greta Cardion Divinorum, who was "avatared" in 381 (publicly, spectacularly, and disastrously) and then did relatively little in public for the next 19 years, until eventually she went to confront a quasi-rogue priest of the LoF religion who had gone a bit mad and banished him to the spirit realm. Unfortunately the Shahidi Mkuu tried at the same time to turn her into a god, and she disappeared never to be seen again (or was she?!)

The previous Avatar to her was a Raaneki chap who was assassinated at the First World's Fair in 358. I think the one before him was a bit of a jerk, but that was before the game started.

To get an idea of LoF-ing it's probably best to ask Chief (by PM; he doesn't visit the thread often) as he's basically in charge of it now. Morph might also be able to provide some details, or maybe Wombat? There aren't many active LoF-following factions left. I also think there's some stuff in the Calorum region write-up on religious life in Calorum, which is now effectively the LoF mainstream (and the denomination to which Emryn effectively belongs, even if not officially).

[SamBurke]

I had made a post basically pointing this out, though in regards to unit losses. In short I said numbers should be straight rounded- neither up nor down- though my post was ignored and subsequently buried.

I saw it, and I think I agreed with it...?

[Aedilred]

Straight rounding might not be a terrible idea (frankly, I have no strong feelings one way or the other, so long as things are broadly consistent), but it doesn't work for unit losses because the figure you're rounding is always n.5. You can take the view that 0.5 rounds to 1, as is conventional, but that's no different to the current system of rounding up unit losses anyway.

[Rizban]

Straight rounding might not be a terrible idea (frankly, I have no strong feelings one way or the other, so long as things are broadly consistent), but it doesn't work for unit losses because the figure you're rounding is always n.5. You can take the view that 0.5 rounds to 1, as is conventional, but that's no different to the current system of rounding up unit losses anyway.

They aren't talking about unit losses. They're talking about me having 9800 militia and only 8000 of them counting for the battle because the last 1800 were rounded down to 0 rather than up to 2000 or just left as a 0.9 bonus.

[Aedilred]

They aren't talking about unit losses. They're talking about me having 9800 militia and only 8000 of them counting for the battle because the last 1800 were rounded down to 0 rather than up to 2000 or just left as a 0.9 bonus.

Burch mentioned it specifically with regard to unit losses:

I had made a post basically pointing this out, though in regards to unit losses. In short I said numbers should be straight rounded- neither up nor down- though my post was ignored and subsequently buried.

I know that the militia is what has sparked this iteration of the discussion; I'm just pointing out that in the stated situation (i.e. unit losses), there's no way it could work.

[Rain Dragon]

[445.1] Drinking contests have become popular in Niskovia. Leikjos warn against irresponsible consumption.

Pff, you know it was probably due to Haljan influence to begin with.

I bet the Leikjos join in after mentioning how horrible death by alcohol poisoning is.

EDIT - Typo

[QuintonBeck]

Round 22 Stats!

Kingdom of the Burning Mountains - NPCed and Vassalized to Hurosha!

Celero - +1 Diplomacy +1 Curiosity (C5)

Triad Legislator (Q) - +2 Curiosity +1 Diplomacy (C10) New Leader: Speaker Ajeet Nia-Rohana

Triad Judicator (Z) - +2 Curiosity +1 Faith (C5)

Triad Executor (I) - +1 Curiosity +1 Diplomacy +1 Military (C10)

Hurosha Empire - +1 Curiosity +1 Diplomacy +1 Military

Faedas - +2 Faith

Calorum - +1 Curiosity +1 Faith

Kingdom of Serendel - +2 Military +1 Curiosity

Razdis - INACTIVE 1 ROUND

Guilder - +2 Military +1 Diplomacy

Bordeux Concordat - +1 Military +1 Diplomacy (D5: 132, 71, 49)

Kingdom of Ashenia – +1 Curiosity +1 Diplomacy +1 Military

AQUA – +1 Curiosity +1 Faith New Leader: Skipper-General Andus Fitzrion

Alydaxis - +2 Curiosity

Salterri Heartlands - +1 Military +1 Curiosity

Priory of Ascension - +1 Diplomacy +2 Military

Niskovia - +1 Curiosity +1 Military

Fera - +1 Curiosity

Sycia - Inactive for 7 Rounds! NPC! (?)

Glazfell - +2 Curiosity +1 Military (M5)

Kingdom of the Carmine Sea - +2 Military +1 Curiosity

Palas Caercia - +1 Diplomacy +1 Military

Pavonia - +1 Diplomacy +1 Curiosity

Tzalteclan – +1 Diplomacy +1 Faith (M10)

The Broken Enclave - INACTIVE 2 ROUNDS

Sangela - INACTIVE 1 ROUND

Ri Chugang - +1 Curiosity (C10)

Mularuhm - +2 Diplomacy

The Alzeroth Collective - +4 Curiosity

Previous Round Increases:
Round 1
Round 2
Round 3
Round 4
Round 5
Round 6
Round 7
Round 8
Round 9
Round 10
Round 11
Round 12
Round 13
Round 14
Round 15
Round 16
Round 17
Round 18
Round 19
Round 20
Round 21
Round 22

[TheDarkDM]

So, am I correct in assuming that a Faith based Holy War will work on this Ridovo cult, or will I need to bring Military into it?