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2010-06-16, 08:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6
I'd really like to see a source on that.
It's on my to-add list (which is really really big right now). Are there any better shadow pouncer PrCs than Telflammar Shadowlord?
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2010-06-16, 08:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6
Likes and dislikes don't enter into it. Personally, I really like Rogues, and am always on the lookout for ways to make them more effective. But I try to read the rules as written, then figure out if and how to put things together in a useful fashion. There's nothing in the rules that says a bunch of feats, none of which are in a feat tree, need to work well together.
Originally Posted by Jarian
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2010-06-16, 08:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6
Except the feat does what it's intended to do: It sees through a darkness spell.
A spell like ability, quoth the SRD...
Originally Posted by SRD
The invocation specifies that "you can use darkness as the spell".
If I am using Darkness as per the spell, and spell-like abilities function just like the spell of that name, then by RAW At Home In the Deep will allow me to see through it.
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2010-06-16, 09:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6
Curmudgeon, I have to agree with ZeroNumerous here. The rules for SLAs suggest that when an SLA mimics a spell, it counts as that spell for all purposes. You can qualify for prestige classes by having SLAs of spells. You can qualify for feats with SLAs of spells.
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2010-06-16, 09:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6
Looking good thus far.
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2010-06-16, 09:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6
As you quoted, "Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name."
Except, of course, when the feat says that it specifically works on the Darkness spell alone. The writers of the feat were clearly aware of this distinction, because the feat's prerequisite includes "Darkness as a spell-like ability", whereas the benefit is for "the Darkness spell" and not the Darkness spell-like ability.
You can't have it both ways. If the distinction isn't important, as you claim, then the feat wouldn't call out distinct versions of Darkness in the prerequisite and benefit sections. If the distinction does matter for the feat, then the benefit works only as stated.
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2010-06-16, 09:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6
What about the pixie race? Isn't it awesome for a rogue?
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2010-06-16, 09:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-06-16, 09:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6
I'd suggest dropping the matter and letting Curmudgeon play it how he likes it, or starting a new thread on the SLAs vs. spells argument.
On a sidenote, one PC in a game I run is a 12th level warlock who went nuts with the darkness-themed feats and the house-ruled lesser invocation version of darkness (the one that includes a swarm of bats). Her character is an absolute pain in the butt to fight in most combats - flying around with immediate action deeper darkness+bats that grants her HiPS and a hide bonus. She's actually considering taking a level of rogue and the craven feat to boost her skills and damage vs. flat-footed opponents.Handbooks: (Hosted on the new MixMax forums)
[3.5] The Poison Handbook
[3.5] (New) Master of Shrouds Handbook
[3.5 Base Class] Healer's Handbook
Trophies!Spoiler
Thanks to Strategos and Jumilk for the awesome Iron Chef trophies!
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2010-06-16, 09:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6
*facepalms forever*
So, we have this spell-like ability. It functions, for all intents and purposes, as a spell of the same name.
But the ability that requires said spell-like ability doesn't actually let you use it.
Because you're coming up with... what? The lack of "-like ability" in the feat's description?
Ugh. I need a drink just trying to understand your thought processes.
Edit: Above poster is correct. No sense derailing this thread with further pedantry.Last edited by Jarian; 2010-06-16 at 09:14 PM.
My forum avatars appear to have decomposed in my absence. C'est la vie.Homebrewer's Signature
If you use any of my homebrew, or even if you just have a strong opinion on it, please let me know. Feedback is always useful.
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2010-06-16, 09:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6
This is a case of ovals and circles, I'd say. A circle is an oval, but an oval is not a circle. By the same token, SLAs act as spells of the same name. However, the spell does not act as an SLA. The distinction matters for the pre-req, because the spell will not qualify, only the SLA will. It does not matter in the description, as the SLA works as the spell does, and as such can be seen through.
Edit: drop'dLast edited by Thiyr; 2010-06-16 at 09:16 PM.
The Complete Warrior rules on losing prerequisites for a PrC apply to all books. This bothers me enough to sig it. If you disagree, please PM me, I'm down with being proven wrong.
Steam: Thiyr (The Great and Powerful Bulbasaur).
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Bulbabulbabulbabulba...SAUR.
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2010-06-16, 09:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6
If you had simply continued onward, past my bolding, you would notice this:
Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.
Denoting that the 'Usually' qualifier applies only in cases where the spell-like ability in question specifies otherwise.
There is no specific case in Darkness(the invocation) that specifies that it functions in any way except as per Darkness(the spell).
The only specification relevant to At Home in the Deep is that it does not function on other [Darkness] effects.
According to your logic, that qualification is irrelevant as Descriptors only apply to spells, which you clearly believe Spell-like Abilities are not.
As such, an SLA that "functions as per Darkness" will continue to function as per Darkness and an ability that sees through Darkness will see through such an SLA, as--again, according to you--such an SLA is not a [Darkness] spell.
Then again: Anyone else would say "That's bunk" and classify an SLA as a [Darkness] spell, even if strict RAW says otherwise. This is known as the "No, you cannot heal yourself by dunking your head under water" effect.
EDIT: Ninja'd.
+6 LA says otherwise...Last edited by ZeroNumerous; 2010-06-16 at 09:17 PM.
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2010-06-16, 09:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6
Sometimes yes; sometimes no.
... a prestige class with a spellcasting requirement of “Must know (or be able to cast) darkness” is met by a warlock who chooses darkness as one of her invocations, or by any creature with darkness as a spell-like ability.... requirements for feats and prestige classes based on specific levels of spells cast (“Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells,” for example) cannot be met by spell-like abilities or invocations—not even spell-like abilities or invocations that allow a character to use a specific arcane spell of the appropriate level or higher.Originally Posted by MindbenderPrerequisite: Ability to cast arcane spells or use spell-like abilities (including invocations).
By popular request, I guess I'm done here.
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2010-06-16, 09:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6
It has some very good abilities, but the +4 LA really hurts. It could be decent in high level games though, as long as your DM isn't popping True Seeing on everything. I'll go over it in the LA races section I'll add eventually.
Here you go.Last edited by PId6; 2010-06-16 at 10:02 PM.
Rogue Handbook | Warmage Rebuild | Diablo's Assassin | Revised Classes
Potpourri Creation Contest II Winner: Desert Martial Adept Substitution Levels
Potpourri Creation Contest III Best Characterization: Edward the Sly's Lucky Spells
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2010-06-16, 11:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6
If the DM is giving away free LA, then pixie is good at +1 or even +2 LA, but I think +4 is probably too much for a rogue. Being 4 ranks below an ECL 5 human rogue's skills is probably just too much even for constant greater invis and the other nice stuff.
My personal favorite rogue race is probably strongheart halfling, followed closely by whisper gnome and human/azurin.Handbooks: (Hosted on the new MixMax forums)
[3.5] The Poison Handbook
[3.5] (New) Master of Shrouds Handbook
[3.5 Base Class] Healer's Handbook
Trophies!Spoiler
Thanks to Strategos and Jumilk for the awesome Iron Chef trophies!
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2010-06-16, 11:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-06-17, 12:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6
Here you go.[/QUOTE]
Thanks. I've wondered this for quite some time, and never bothered to look in an actual book. Never could find anything on the SRD, either way.
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2010-06-17, 12:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6
The full explanation is not in the SRD. The d20srd.org version adds the stack definition, because that was released separately for the online D&D Glossary. However, as I noted, this only provides (as examples) 2 of the 3 exceptions to the basic stacking rule (circumstance and dodge bonuses); it omits mention of the other exception: racial bonuses.
The SRD is very nice, and I use it a lot. But hauling out the actual books is the way to go when things aren't clear after you've exhausted the convenient (but sometimes misleading) online material.
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2010-06-17, 01:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook – When the darkness hits back (for 10d6 damage)
And I assume this is one of the reasons that a magic enabled Rogue is very popular. Wraithstrike (especially in Extended or Persisted form) makes TWF fun even at very high levels.
Then again, when you can persist Wraithstrike, I guess you're more of an almost full caster than a Rogue. ;)
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2010-06-17, 01:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook – When the darkness hits back (for 10d6 damage)
I don't see how you can Persist it without either 1. significant levels in a full casting class, or 2. way too much effort to cheese it in without 1. Naenhoon Illumian with a cleric dip, a wizard dip, and Precocious Apprentice would qualify for 2, but you're better off just turning into a full caster in that case.
Rogue Handbook | Warmage Rebuild | Diablo's Assassin | Revised Classes
Potpourri Creation Contest II Winner: Desert Martial Adept Substitution Levels
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2010-06-17, 04:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6
Update: I've added an LA races section with some of the suggestions. Marrulurks really are just awesome.
Rogue Handbook | Warmage Rebuild | Diablo's Assassin | Revised Classes
Potpourri Creation Contest II Winner: Desert Martial Adept Substitution Levels
Potpourri Creation Contest III Best Characterization: Edward the Sly's Lucky Spells
Prestige Class Contest XXI Submission: Child of the Seelie Court
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2010-06-17, 04:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook – When the darkness hits back (for 10d6 damage)
Well, with Rogue/Wizard/Unseen Seer/(Other PrC), you can get significant levels in a full casting class without losing the Rogue feel, but yes, it requires crazy levels of caster and maybe some Metamagic-reducing feats as well.
I know, I know. Just saying that it's doable. ;)
However, if you go Rogue X/Focused Specialist Transmuter Y/Unseen Seer 2 , you don't need too many non-Rogueish levels to use Extend Spell, both for Wraithstrike and Hunter's Eye.
Anyway, great handbook! I forgot to say that, and I apologize. Awesome work!
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2010-06-17, 04:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook – When the darkness hits back (for 10d6 damage)
I do love me some Unseen Seer. My current one has Persistent Wraithstrike running everyday, along with Persistent Hunter's Eye, Cloud of Knives, Golem Strike, Grave Strike, Guided Shot, and Sniper's Shot. I should probably add Easy and Practical Metamagic to the feats section; they're extremely helpful for all Unseen Seer-type builds.
Thanks!Rogue Handbook | Warmage Rebuild | Diablo's Assassin | Revised Classes
Potpourri Creation Contest II Winner: Desert Martial Adept Substitution Levels
Potpourri Creation Contest III Best Characterization: Edward the Sly's Lucky Spells
Prestige Class Contest XXI Submission: Child of the Seelie Court
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2010-06-17, 03:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6
Rogue! Every class handbook is better with a link to the original class!
Savage Progressions has LA0 versions of Aasimar, Drow, and Tieflings. Aasimar and Tieflings are still native outsiders!
Whisper Gnome Stats.
Dragonborn of Bahamut Template.
Goblin is probably worse than Air Goblin. Extrapolating other elemental races (+2 INT, -2 CHA for Races of Fire) may be viable.
Gray Elf.
Half-Elf.
There's controversy whether Action Before Thought allows Evasion. If so, this maneuver is slightly more viable. I also greatly recommend save swap maneuvers if your DM likes forcing saves. Having them handy is usually an auto-pass 1/encounter.
You reference Penetrating Strike (Dungeonscape 13) so often yet I didn't see the source or how to get it. Penetrating Strike is an alternative class feature (ACF) that replaces Trap Sense at Rogue3.
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2010-06-17, 03:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook – When the darkness hits back (for 10d6 damage)
SpoilerI Am A: Lawful Good Human Ranger (3rd Level)Ability ScoresStrength: 15Dexterity: 18Constitution: 16Intelligence: 16Wisdom: 16Charisma: 14Find yours here: http://www.easydamus.com/character.html
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2010-06-17, 03:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook – When the darkness hits back (for 10d6 damage)
Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2010-06-17, 04:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6
That is a good idea. I'll add the links later.
There's no reason by RAW why it wouldn't work with Evasion. Action Before Thought replaces the roll with a Concentration check "to determine the save's success." Evasion says that if the rogue "makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage." If Action Before Thought reports success, then Evasion prevents all the damage.
I dislike Action Before Thought on rogues, however, because your Reflex saves are already high enough. You have to choose to use it before you know whether you've rolled a natural 1, so the only point is to prevent a 5% chance of failure, expending an action to do so. You also have to spend points on Concentration, and it prevents you from taking a better maneuver like Mind Over Body, since Fortitude actually is a problem.
You must have missed it then. It's in the ACF section, under "Replaces Trap Sense."Rogue Handbook | Warmage Rebuild | Diablo's Assassin | Revised Classes
Potpourri Creation Contest II Winner: Desert Martial Adept Substitution Levels
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2010-06-17, 05:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6
I was just looking at the Swordsage dip advice; it says that a 1 level dip (ideally taken at level 9) allows you to take 'Assassins Stance', but that stance requires 3 levels of Swordsage to take. Is there something Im missing?
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2010-06-17, 05:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6
You're missing the rules about how initiator levels for maneuvers function. "Swordsage 3" in the maneuver description means that it's a 3rd level maneuver for swordsages, so a swordsage can take it at (initiator) level 5. Non-martial adept classes (ie. non-ToB ones) advance your initiator levels at 1/2 ratio, so level 8 something/1 swordsage would have initiator level 5 (8/2+1) for swordsage maneuvers and could thus take 3rd level maneuvers. Savvy?
Last edited by Greenish; 2010-06-17 at 05:32 PM.
Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2010-06-17, 05:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6
There is a debate over the line 'begins play with...' means exactly. Some people do believe that a Rogue8/SS1 is limited to 1st level stances because of that line, and others believe that it only applies to taking your first character level as Swordsage. I am ambivalent, (and could have the details of the debate wrong) due to lack of ToB.