Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

[SynissterSyster]

Maybe a stupid question. Say I grab Baron for my DE. Baron says that Hellions count as troops. Do I count Hellions as troops and fast attack, just fast attack but troops for getting objectives, or as troops which means I can get up to four squads of them? Thanks guys.

[Squark]

Depends on the exact wording. Your best bet is to check the FAQ, which usually irons that out. I know that both the Space Wolves versions (Logan Grimnar and Canis Wolfborn) only let you take the specific unit (Wolf Guard and Fenrisian wolves, respectively) as a troop choice, not as their original slot (Elite/Fast attack, respectively).


However, given that you now get a new force organization chart at 2000 points, I can't see you running out of troop slots to take Hellions in unless you're doing something strange.

[SynissterSyster]

If I remember exact wording correctly it says this. Having Baron or a Haemy as HQ it makes Hellions or Wracks as a Troop choice. The current FAQ doesn't say anything about it so maybe I need to see a 5th edition FAQ.

[Hootman]

Are you trying to say that the psycannons are all I'll need for tanks?

Pretty much, yes. S7 Rending solves a LOT of problems. Anything you would be able to solve with meltas can instead be solved with one of the following:

1) Insane volume of S7 Rending. Auto-glances AV14 on a Rend, and if you pen, you get a +1 to damage because of AP2.
2) Liberal application of S10 Daemonhammers. Hammerhand's kind of OP, as it apparently increases your base strength.

However, if you would like to ditch the Exorcist, a squad of 5 Multimelta Retributors in a Rhino is roughly the same price.

The Seraphim are there to provide a bodyguard to Celestine, who will otherwise spend the entire game getting Instant Death'd from across the board. I know I'd throw a little plasma her way once she came into range--S7 AP2 settles a lot of T3 Characters' hash, regardless of any resurrection special rules they may have. You're welcome to remove them, I just thought they might come in handy, what with having Hit & Run.

Maybe a stupid question. Say I grab Baron for my DE. Baron says that Hellions count as troops. Do I count Hellions as troops and fast attack, just fast attack but troops for getting objectives, or as troops which means I can get up to four squads of them? Thanks guys.

The general rule is that if "HQ Guy makes Non-Troops Unit into Troops", then they may only be taken in Troop-FOC-Slots. If instead it said "HQ Guy makes Non-Troops Unit SCORING", then they remain in Non-Troop-Slots, but can capture objectives and suchlike.

First category: Deathwing, Ravenwing, Logan, Biker Captains, Wazdakka, and probably several others, including your Baron if I understand correctly.
Secord category: Pedro Cantor & Sternguard. I don't know any others off the top of my head.

[Wyntonian]

I've been looking around for the right army, and I've come across the Eldar. I know they're pretty complex, but how do you folks feel about them? Worthwhile? Fun?

[Hootman]

I've been looking around for the right army, and I've come across the Eldar. I know they're pretty complex, but how do you folks feel about them? Worthwhile? Fun?

Worthwhile: Certainly, but you're going to need a lot of money for this one. Most of the important models are currently in Finecast, and you'll need like 8 of essentially the same vehicle at higher points (in the same way that I own 4 or 5 Rhinos-chassis for Space Marines).

Fun: Based solely on my own experience with Eldar players, there are only two possible outcomes of a game. Quit on Turn 2...or quit before the game starts. This is that money-thing I mentioned before; my Eldar-bro doesn't have any, so he can't buy 5+ Wave Serpents/Fire Prisms

Eldar seem to rely VERY heavily on their transport vehicles, and even MORE heavily on strong Generalship, and I've seen why--even with my Orks, I'm able to blow them away with my superior volume of fire long before I even get in assault if my opponent places them anywhere I can get to. Unfortunately for the Eldar, they do not have the long-range power of the Tau or Guard, nor do they possess the staying power of Marines.

I am NOT the person to ask about how good they CAN be with enough money and/or dedication behind them. I have no idea. However, unlike most Marine armies (as well as Orks, but for a slightly different reason), I can tell you that I don't think Eldar are a good Pick-Up-And-Play army. Their units are designed to be incredibly specialized (and somewhat over-points'd, but that's mostly the edition changes), so there's little flexibility for a new player to make mistakes with.

There is only one thing I can say for certain: If you don't like COLORS, don't play Eldar. An army of Eldar that isn't painted as audaciously as possible has no business calling itself a final product on a tabletop.

[Wyntonian]

Hm... I'm not jingling as I walk, so money may be a bit of an issue. I also don't pitch a tent at the thought of sitting there with a bunch of paints and plastic, but I'm not really adverse to it. They seem really easy to screw up.

[houlio]

It also depends on where you're coming from/who you're playing with. If Eldar seem cool to you, try to find a FLGS that does 40k and see if you can try a game or two there just by borrowing some Eldar. You won't know what you like until you try it.

In the few games I played with them, the best thing that worked for me was to run a seer council around in a falcon and murder everything with destructors or singing spears (I was playing guard, so it was a bit silly). I found that both fun and worthwhile. Alternatively, running a bunch of storm guardians with melta guns in a wave serpent was much less entertaining for me, even though it was likely more effective an option.

You also can pretty much paint your guys however you want to, but if you want help at all: go to the painting/modelling thread and check out what other people have been doing and their tips for doing them.

[lord_khaine]

It would proberly help to know how your local metagame looks though, what are the other people in your area playing, and how does their armies look?

[Wyntonian]

I don't actually know yet, really. I have yet to visit the local game stores, but of the two people who I'll be regularly playing against, one does "shooty shooty Tau" with Battlesuits and Hammerheads, and the other does Wolves, Marines and IG. That's about all I have .


Also, what's a FLGS? Something something game store?

[Eldan]

Friendly Local Game Store.

[Wyntonian]

Friendly Local Game Store.

Oh, right. Derp. I've heard the guy at Pegasus games is a crotchety old bastard with beard that doubles as a garotte for people who break his models until you buy something and look interested when he talks, when he magically turns into Santa Claus. I'm going to duck in this weekend sometime.

[Gauntlet]

Space Wolves: Attempt III

-1800 Points
-No fortifications, no Allies

Spoiler

Show

HQ
Logan Grimnar 275

Rune Priest 100

Troops

5 Wolf Guard 355
Arjac Rockfist
Terminator Armour, Assault Cannon
3x Combi-Melta
Drop Pod

10 Grey Hunters 160
Plasmagun x2

10 Grey Hunters 160
Plasmagun x2

5 Grey Hunters 115
Meltagun
Drop Pod

Fast Attack

3 Thunderwolves 205
Frost Blade, Storm Shield

Heavy Support

6 Long Fangs 140
Missile Launcher x5

6 Long Fangs 140
Missile Launcher x5

5 Long Fangs 150
Multi-Melta x4
Drop Pod

----
1800

I figured with three drop pods, I can either drop in Wolf Guard + Long Fangs for eight or more Melta shots turn 1, or keep some back for later. I can also put Logan and co. in with Grey Hunters if I don't need the melta support early. I like the idea of being able to split up the Wolf Guard if I want to cut down on kill points, or keep them together to hold an objective out of the way, or drop them in to reinforce wherever they are needed.

[Erloas]

Well I've been playing Eldar for a while and think they are a very good army, but one I don't think a lot of people play in the right way, mostly considering what I hear people say about how bad they are.

But I would also say that I haven't yet played any games with 6th edition and my meta-game does not match what the internet says it should. Though I do see a lot of highly mechanized lists they don't usually match the net. My win rate with Eldar is probably in the 80% range with the rest split between draws and losses.

Eldar seem to rely VERY heavily on their transport vehicles, and even MORE heavily on strong Generalship, and I've seen why--even with my Orks, I'm able to blow them away with my superior volume of fire long before I even get in assault if my opponent places them anywhere I can get to. Unfortunately for the Eldar, they do not have the long-range power of the Tau or Guard, nor do they possess the staying power of Marines.

While Eldar might not have the firepower of Tau or Guard, they have the maneuverability and options to not need to just stand there and shoot like either of those armies.

Movement is the key to victory. Along with that is knowing what each of your units can and can't do and how to manipulate your opponents actions. And playing to the mission, I know so many games where I almost couldn't loose because my opponent waited until too late to try and deal with the objectives rather then just trying to kill me.

Of course having looked at how I build my army it pretty much goes against every bit of advice I've seen for Eldar on the internet. I've never ran a seer council, fire dragons, wraithguard, or prism tanks; I use guardians, and small units of jetbikes, usually only have 1 wave serpent, maybe 2 at 2000 points. What I do usually have is somewhere in the range of 40-60 Str6 shots per turn between the guardians, war walkers, jetbikes, vypers, warp spiders, and other stuff I'm probably forgetting.

With the 6th edition changes I think my use of wave serpents and banshees might change but I haven't looked at it enough to know for sure how. But I use the army very aggressively and rarely will any unit not move in any given turn. The changes to cover saves will probably hurt some too. The way I play doesn't work well if someone wants to play on a very open table.

[Squark]

Space Wolves: Attempt III

-1800 Points
-No fortifications, no Allies

Spoiler

Show

HQ
Logan Grimnar 275

Rune Priest 100
You should probably mark if he's a diviner or a codex Rune PRiest
Troops

5 Wolf Guard 355
Arjac Rockfist
Terminator Armour, Assault Cannon
3x Combi-Melta
Drop Pod
Fine for the most part, although that suicide squad is just that, a suicide squad.
10 Grey Hunters 160
Plasmagun x2
Decent
10 Grey Hunters 160
Plasmagun x2
Decent
5 Grey Hunters 115
Meltagun
Drop Pod
Feels... out of place. 5 lone grey Hunters aren't going to survive long. I'd probably consider adding 4 more grey hunters and a wolf guard if you can change the points arround
Fast Attack

3 Thunderwolves 205
Frost Blade, Storm Shield
S10 Powerfists are awesome. Use them. Now that you have the multi-melta distraction going, though, these guys are probably safer, since your opponent has to choose between shooting the thunderwolves and the multi-melta long fangs
Heavy Support

6 Long Fangs 140
Missile Launcher x5

6 Long Fangs 140
Missile Launcher x5

5 Long Fangs 150
Multi-Melta x4
Drop Pod
Personally, I'd go with 1 more mult-melta here, 1 less missile launcher on the other group (6 Long Fangs +Logan +Arjac comes out to a full drop pod)
----
1800

I figured with three drop pods, I can either drop in Wolf Guard + Long Fangs for eight or more Melta shots turn 1, or keep some back for later. Fine, but then you need to beef up that 5 man squad of grey hunters a bit I can also put Logan and co. in with Grey Hunters if I don't need the melta support early.I don't know what the multi-melta team is going to do without Logan, frankly I like the idea of being able to split up the Wolf Guard if I want to cut down on kill points, or keep them together to hold an objective out of the way, or drop them in to reinforce wherever they are needed. 3 models in power armor are not likely to hold an objective unless it's hidden from the rest of the battlefield by terrain

Comments in bold

[Gauntlet]

I was keeping the grey hunter squad at 5 so I could put Logan + Arjac(or the other terminator wolf Guard) + Priest here if I didn't need to Melta anything. I would love to put more in but I don't know where I could find the points. The reason the Melta squad only has 5 in is the same, so if I need to I can put all the angry characters there.
The Wolf Guard would usually get split up- I just like having the option of taking an extra unit if needed. The drop pod was intended to let me drop the other two down on turn one if I want to.
The Rune Priest would use the BBB powers, yeah. I agree I should find space for a Power Fist in the thunderwolf squad, maybe swap out the Frost Blade for one.

[Wyntonian]

Do Eldar deepstrike at all? I kinda enjoy that, drop-podding in SM's. Is that a viable tactic?

[Tome]

Do Eldar deepstrike at all? I kinda enjoy that, drop-podding in SM's. Is that a viable tactic?

No, they don't really. Nor is it a viable tactic for them.

They have two units, Swooping Hawks and Warp Spiders, that can Deepstrike. Swooping Hawks are bad, and Warp Spiders aren't too hot either in my experience.

If you like Deepstriking, Blood Angels have an entire list built around it (Descent of Angels). Most flavours of SM and Tyranids can also DS a fair few units in a useful fashion.

[Erloas]

What I've found is that deep striking is never a good idea. Of course I've never ran drop pods either, and with reserves being easier to get in and not being able to assault after an outflank anyway, it might be a bit more viable then it was before.
Its not even that necessary with Eldar anyway because the jetbikes can move 24" and the wave serpents can now do 36" (maybe even 48 with the star engines, haven't really looked at it too closely), and jump troops being mobile on their own (the only ones that can deep strike) they don't really need to risk deep striking when they can get where they want to go very quickly anyway.

I didn't really care for warp spiders when I first tried them, but once I forgot about trying to deep strike them and cut them down to a fairly cheap unit (ie no exarch) I've found them to be rather good. Their lack of AP is rarely an issue (anything AS 5-6 dies in droves anyway and everything else gets their saves against everything but heavy weapons anyway) and the main issue of ap- against vehicles is gone now too. Keep them cheap and expendable and use them in a way that forces your opponent to deal with them instead of something more important.

[Wyntonian]

What I've found is that deep striking is never a good idea.

Is this Eldar-specific, or more general? Because Podding in a unit of Grey Hunters/Long Fangs is pretty effective against a big ol' squad of Tau/Tanks, from what I've seen (1 game, but still).

Also, are there any good videos of games on Youtube? I know they can last several hours, but I imagine you could skip parts like rolling and such. It might help me get a feel for the game and the different armies.

[Squark]

Certain units can do deep striking well. Specifically, Blood Angels do pretty well with Deep striking, because their jump pack deep strikers only scatter 1d6 instead of 2. Drop pods also work better, because they won't mishap if you scatter onto impassible terrain or another unit (Instead, they're repositioned. Also, half your drop pods enter on the first turn, which lessens the downside). IF you don't have something making it more reliable, though, deep striking is usually too dangerous to be practical.

[Maugan Ra]

So. Tyranids. Anybody got much advice concerning them?

I've basically been heavily committed to my Imperial Guard up until now, amassing something in the region of six and a half thousand points of them, and I feel like a change for my next army. Thus, I have next to no practical experience on running an army with real close combat ability - part of the reason for the switch, since I like trying new play styles. So any general advice in that area would also be quite welcome.

Sadly, my local meta game is utterly devoid of Tyranid players, which does restrict me on the otherwise excellent advice a lot of folks offer there.

[One Step Two]

*de-lurks*

Just adding my two-cents about Eldar. I'll advocate the recommendation that you check your local Meta to see what you'll be dealing with on the field, but don't let that discourage you from playing the Army, it is pretty fun, though I wont deny it can hurt the hip pocket when you're building up the various elements.

As for Eldar being mech reliant, I can't say I've seen an over-dependance on that myself, only because their transports are freaking expensive pointswise. Myself, I run a Jetbike army, a little costly, but excellent maneuverability, and constantly surprising other players that they are troops choices, even in groups of 4-6 which is a little light, using cover to the maximum and bootsint beside objectives late in the game is a big boon.

As Erloas said, people underestimate the humble guardian squads, nowadays in 6th edition, they're a very decent objective holder, supporting them with some of the more specialist units in the army to get the job done, is more or less how Eldar are meant to be played.
A few other tips:
In a Marine heavy meta, you'll get alot of fun out of Dark Reapers, costly, but being able to punish a space marine squad with 8 S5 AP3 shots a turn, and the Exarch using his Eldar Missile launcher to good effect can be quite descisive, especially now you can use them on the move with snap shots.
Eldar Rangers are neat, the new stealth rules makes them very hardy at long range, paying a few extra points to make them pathfinders is costly but very decent if you can stick them on a remote, or difficult to reach objective in cover, they are going no-where, 2+ cover saves are fun.
You will find busting tanks a little harder than some armies, the lack of anything over S9 can hurt when hitting at things AV 14 or so, but missiles are neat, and War-Walkers can surprise you in how good they are at being sneaky tank poppers when they outflank with two Missile launchers (not twin linked, two of em)

Over-all though, the thing to really remember, is that the army is fragile, T3, low armour, and small numbers, means you're going to feel losses, so play them lke the flightly little Space Elves they are. Test out a few games at your FLGS like everyone else says, and remember, this whole game is costly, don't go buying everything at once.

[Renegade Paladin]

So. Tyranids. Anybody got much advice concerning them?

I've basically been heavily committed to my Imperial Guard up until now, amassing something in the region of six and a half thousand points of them, and I feel like a change for my next army. Thus, I have next to no practical experience on running an army with real close combat ability - part of the reason for the switch, since I like trying new play styles. So any general advice in that area would also be quite welcome.

Sadly, my local meta game is utterly devoid of Tyranid players, which does restrict me on the otherwise excellent advice a lot of folks offer there.

The only advice I've got is that there's an excellent reason your metagame is devoid of Tyranid players. Mine is too. That wasn't the case a year and a half ago. The players aren't gone (with one exception); their Tyranids are.

[Wyntonian]

The only advice I've got is that there's an excellent reason your metagame is devoid of Tyranid players. Mine is too. That wasn't the case a year and a half ago. The players aren't gone (with one exception); their Tyranids are.

....Is this going to be an Indian in the Cupboard thing? I don't get it....

[Renegade Paladin]

....Is this going to be an Indian in the Cupboard thing? I don't get it....

This is going to be a "Tyranids are terrible, which is why no one plays them" thing.

[Wyntonian]

Oh, fair enough. Are they really that bad? What makes them a weak army?

[One Step Two]

The increased emphasis on shooting in the new rules, and the changes to how fleet works means that their ability to assault has been hampered. The changes to units coming out of reserve, them not being allowed to assauly specifically, is a pretty big damn hit as well, especially for uses of the Trygon's tunnel much like the Dark Eldar webway, amoung other various changes. Admittedly I haven't read their FAQ to see what else has been hampered, but it really isnt plesant.

[Squark]

Let me put it this way; Tyranids were already struggling. Now getting into assault is harder, shooting is stronger, allies are awesome (and nids don't get any), and... you get the idea. 6th edition really kicked 'nids while they were down.

[Hootman]

In 5th Edition, Tyranids were CRIPPLED by their lack of cheap anti-tank options over 24". By which I mean, they didn't have anything at all that was practical. Their best anti-tank units were Zoanthropes at 18" (shut down by Psychic Hoods, a Marine and Eldar standard item), and Hive Guard at 24" (pretty awesome, but only 3 models to a unit), and everything else was either a wimpy objective holder, or Krak Missile Bait (S8 AP3 does wonders against T6 Sv3+ Monsters). Poison weapons (Dark Eldar) and Force Weapons (Grey Knights) also shut them down, hard.

In 6th Edition, they only really got 3 things that make them any better.

1) Flying Monsterous Creatures in 2 different Force Org Slots.
2) Overwatching "Devilgants" (Termigants with a very high volume of fire).
3) Biomancy Psychic Powers, specifically Iron Arm on the Hive Tyrant/Swarmlord.

Unfortunately, I do not expect this to make them much more competative than they were, because you still cannot effectively deal with vehicles. Much like Orks, Tyranids have no trouble at all just REAPING their way through waves of Infantry--Vehicles, on the other hand...