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2012-11-20, 01:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)
Please note that I did not say "no mistakes". I said "no flaws". Trusting someone is not a character flaw. Similarly, I was discussing people's moral choices being infalliably correct, not every decision that causes drama. AND that was a warning sign. I notice that you didn't even try to engage me on the two main points.
But hey, I'll take up your gauntlet because why not, it's good for a laugh. Ichigo's "mistake" of trusting Ginjo was a meaningless one that granted him a new set of super-powers, which he instantly lost but just as instantly gained stronger ones with no consequences or effort and then the bad guys were utterly beaten with no casualties on the good team. He suffered no negative consequences for trusting Ginjo whatsoever - every negative thing that happened to him and his friends was done by Tsukishima, who he knew was evil.
On top of that, it wasn't a mistake at all - Ginjo was trustworthy! He was mind-controlled into being trustworthy and then re-mind-controlled into being a villain again! Ginjo couldn't just be lying, because that would mean that Ichigo made a mistake. No, he had to have all of his memories rewritten in an absurdly complex and meaningless Xanatos Roulette because god knows you can't slip a lie past Ichigo.If you like my thoughts, you'll love my writing. Visit me at www.mishahandman.com.
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2012-11-20, 01:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)
I wouldn't go so far as to call Ichigo a Gary Stu. Sure he gets all the powers ever, but I think that's more just poor writing than anything else.
If anyone in this series gets to be called a Gary Stu, it's Aizen.
Or possibly Tsukishima from a literal standpoint.
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2012-11-20, 02:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2009
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Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)
Mary Sue was never a well defined term to begin with, I'm not sure there is any point in arguing over whether any given character is one, no matter how obvious it seems. I don't really think of Ichigo as one, his characterization is actually fairly rounded which in my book is a mark against being a Mary Sue. Really the problem with the manga isn't the main characters who are all pretty well rounded and dynamic for a shonen manga, but the rest of the manga including the fact that most of the characters don't get much screen time anymore and the one who does (Ichigo) spends most of it fighting.
Edit: Oh yeah, new chapter. Well, I'm not too happy about Unohana being nerfed in favor of this zero division guy, or in general the zero division acting all high and mighty, but it wasn't a bad chapter overall.Last edited by Drolyt; 2012-11-20 at 02:25 PM.
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2012-11-20, 02:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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- Freljord
Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)
Checking back on it, the Shinigami Research and Development Institute was founded by Urahara, so if she was a captain of the 12th Division, she was in-between Urahara and Mayuri. It's always been tied to the 12th Division since then, so other possibilities are that she had the lab before then and the SRDI was put in the same location (maybe even for that reason) or that she was once part of the 12th Division and the SRDI, but when being promoted to captain she went to a different division.
What I am kind of wondering though, is why is Byakuya coming along, while Kenpachi isn't? He is in just as much danger as Byakuya is.Homebrewer's Signature | Avatar by Strawberries
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2012-11-20, 02:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2005
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- Toronto, Canada
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Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)
I have to admit that the superpower of "self-insert fanfiction" is one of the best things ever. :)
Well, mileage can certainly vary, but I don't think that Ichigo is actually well-rounded - anymore.
I want to stress that I do not believe that Ichigo started Bleach as a Mary Sue. At creation, he was a spiritually and emotionally myopic hothead. Hell, the entire series only exists because of his flaws. If he'd just sat back and accepted that maybe this crazy-powerful magical binding wasn't something he should be breaking, Rukia could have killed the Hollow instead of getting brutally wounded saving him, and he wouldn't have had to take her power, and then she wouldn't have been arrested etc etc.
The first season's arcs are all based around the flaws of Ichigo and his friends. Ichigo's thoughtlessness results in Rukia having to teach him to hunt ghosts, and his reluctance causes trouble all over the place. Chad and Orihime's respective refusal to discuss their problems nearly gets each of them killed. Ishida's hatred nearly gets everyone killed when he unleashes problems he can't fix, and in the process his total lack of attention to his friends nearly gets them killed when he fails to realize that they could be in danger.
The second arc is about consequences, too - Ichigo goes after Rukia because of his own guilt and sense of responsibility for what happened to her, and guilt and loss are at the root of why everyone in Soul Society is behaving like a twit. Renji is guilty for abandoning Rukia, Byakuya is guilty for breaking the laws for his wife, Tousen is angry at the death of his captain, Hinamori flips out over Aizen and Toshiro flips out over Hinamori, Soi Fon is destroyed because she was abandoned... and so on. Ichigo almost gets himself and Yoruichi killed because he tries to fight Byakuya without his bankai, Ishida destroys his own powers to get revenge, Kenpachi changes sides when he finally finds a worthy opponent, and Aizen is obsessed with perfecting himself and overcoming his perceived flaws.
The problem is that Ichigo overcomes those flaws in the third arc. He makes peace with his anger, he accepts his limits, and he sacrifices his power not to destroy the big bad, but to let someone else do it. He's accepted his limits and is ready to fade away.
And then he doesn't.
Ichigo's myopia is gone. His anger is focused and only actually comes out when it's reasonable and correct for it to. But nothing has replaced the loss of those character traits. Kubo completed his story, and then decided to tell two more chapters of it, and the result is that there's nothing to fill the gap, no emotional resonance or character dilemmas. Ichigo's decisions are reduced to "can I fight even harder", and the answer is always "not at first, but then later yes".If you like my thoughts, you'll love my writing. Visit me at www.mishahandman.com.
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2012-11-20, 03:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)
These Squad Zero guys are a bunch of jerks. Except for giant beard guy.
I actually like Orihime, so it really bugs me when everyone acts as if she doesn't exist. The crippled captains and lieutenants and the broken bankai do not require these jerks to be fixed. Definetly agree with Morph: Why Byakuya but not Kenpachi?Last edited by Slayer Lord; 2012-11-20 at 03:17 PM.
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2012-11-20, 03:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)
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2012-11-20, 04:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)
The one harrasing Shinji does not seem so bad. But yeah, the other two have real attitude problems. The SS Captains seem to think so to.
Kenpachi may not have been wounded badly enough to be worried about him. He certainly is extreamly tough. Orihime is in Hueco Mundo and I don't think she has been forgotten about. The last page has "that person" arriving and I would be surprised if she where not along with him.
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2012-11-20, 04:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2012
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- Franconia
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Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)
Last edited by Dscherro; 2012-11-20 at 04:31 PM.
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2012-11-20, 04:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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2012-11-20, 04:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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- WI, USA
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2012-11-20, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2007
Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)
Yeah, stupid-hair earned my spite, and Beardface (this needs to be his nickname here) earned awesome points because of stupid-hair ***ness.
Last edited by Dante & Vergil; 2012-11-20 at 05:05 PM.
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2012-11-20, 05:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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- Freljord
Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)
ChildbirthEating a lot of cakes and not exercising does that to a woman.
Shame none of the guys have been named yet. For now I'm gonna call them Zerobeard, Zeroshades and Zerohair.
Yes, they're slightly ironic. But what are you gonna do about it? They were Zero Division before it wasknowncool.Homebrewer's Signature | Avatar by Strawberries
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2012-11-20, 08:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2009
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2012-11-20, 11:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2007
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- UTC -6
Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)
I dunno, beardy looks like a "Zangief" to me.
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2012-11-20, 11:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)
"Just because you are badly developed character it does not make you bad guy."
Okay, that was horrible. Ow! Stop throwing stones!
Yeah, but no one else has changed that much in a hundred years. I like Morph's explanation. They probably don't get that much exercise hanging around the palace.
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2012-11-21, 01:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2007
Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)
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2012-11-21, 02:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
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- Below sea level
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Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)
Warlock Poetry?
Or ways to use me in game?
Better grab a drink...
Currently ruining Strahd's day - Avatar by the Outstanding Smuchsmuch
First Ordained Jr. Tormlet by LoyalPaladin
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2012-11-21, 03:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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2012-11-21, 04:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2012
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- Franconia
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2012-11-21, 06:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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- Freljord
Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)
I liked it when Ichigo's hair was longer. Shame that his aging was reversed for half-explained reasons.
I guess Orihime's boobs got bigger?
Uryuu drastically changed his hairstyle iirc. I know I barely recognized him at the start of the Fullbring arc.Homebrewer's Signature | Avatar by Strawberries
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2012-11-21, 10:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)
There are physical changes with the people that are still alive, though they are subtle for the most part. Only about a year and a half has passed so your not going to see a huge change in things other than hairstyle and such (other than Ichigo's sisters of course). For instance Orihime does have a different hairstyle and has her "hairclips" on her cloths now. The people in the SS age very very slowly and so we should not see any changes in age. But there have been changes in style up there as well. First time I saw Rukia I didn't really recognize her.
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2012-11-21, 11:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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2012-11-21, 12:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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- Freljord
Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)
Strangely enough though, Yachiru appears to have visibly grown too, despite the incredibly slowed aging in Seireitei. (I mean, it's like, what, one fifth the speed of the real world, tops?)
Homebrewer's Signature | Avatar by Strawberries
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2012-11-21, 01:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2012
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Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)
During their first meeting Rukia mentioned that she's nearly ten times as old as Ichigo. Since she could easily blend in with Ichigo's classmates, she probably looks like a teenager, and she is, for a shinigami, rather young, that could mean that she is in her "shinigami-teens". So the ratio would be around 1:10.
But of course there are 30 years old that could pass for teens, and Rukia is quite small. 1:5 sounds right too (that would put Rukia in her "30s"). Maybe somewhere in between.
Unfortunately we have no information about a shinigami's average life span, and they might not even age on a constant speed.
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2012-11-21, 01:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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- Freljord
Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)
Since Rukia might've exaggerated, I went with what I figured would be the easiest way to measure it: Byakuya. He appeared in the Swing Back The Pendulum arc 110 years in the past as a boy in his early teens, whereas at current I'd put him in his 30s (he doesn't appear old enough to be in his 40s, but old enough to have kids in their early teens himself). So roughly 20 years to 110 years, rounded it a little, 5:1 seemed good. It could be higher, but I certainly wouldn't put it lower. Maybe 4:1, but it's more likely to go in the other direction, up to 10:1 or even slightly beyond.
This is of course assuming members of the noble clans are all born into the spirit world.Homebrewer's Signature | Avatar by Strawberries
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2012-11-21, 03:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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2012-11-21, 03:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2009
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- I'm sure it's somewhere
Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)
My bet is that the progression from adult to old person is significantly slower than the growth from child to adult.
Avatar Credit: the very talented PseudoStraw. Full image:Spoiler
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2012-11-21, 03:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)
Or maybe we should stop trying to make sense of non-sense Kubo put in without thinking of how they work.
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2012-11-21, 03:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)