[3.5] Bloodlines. After a week of research, I still don't get them.

[tsj]

The way I interpret bloodlines from reading about them just now is...

Major bloodline : just are forced to take 3 bloodlines levels as part of your 20 levels

Intermediate bloodline : as above but 2 bloodline levels

Minor : as above but 1 level

For example... a major bloodline :

3, 6 and 12 are bloodline levels

So a PC with a class/classes and a major bloodline looks like this

Levels 1 & 2 = regular class levels
Level 3 = bloodline level (with no HD)
Levels 4 & 5 = regular class levels
Level 6 = bloodline level (with no HD)
Levels 7, 8, 9, 10 & 11 = regular class levels
Level 12 = bloodline level (with no HD)
Levels 13+ = regular class levels

So any PC with a major bloodline
and an ECL of 13+ effectively
has a LA of 3 due to his bloodline

So it's like LA but it is enforced at
specific levels

The way I read it, a bloodline does & must affect ECL.

However... the rules seem to indicate that if you skip a bloodline level, you don't get the get new benefits but
you still get to keep the benefits you already got....

So this could in theory allow for free stuff at levels 1 and 2... However as a GM I would rule that a PC MUST take at least the first bloodline level in order to keep any of the benefits...

[rrwoods]

Thinking that LA +1 is free power under the buy off rules tells me you don't have experience with a party containing an LA +1 character. I do, and my experience is that the level adjust and buy off thereof keeps the character pretty much in line with the rest of the party.

Maybe you do have experience with it and it's drastically different for some reason. *shrug*

[Beheld]

Thinking that LA +1 is free power under the buy off rules tells me you don't have experience with a party containing an LA +1 character. I do, and my experience is that the level adjust and buy off thereof keeps the character pretty much in line with the rest of the party.

Maybe you do have experience with it and it's drastically different for some reason. *shrug*

Having played more than one game that started at or went to level 7, I can see that the Difference between a White Dragonspawn Spellscale Sorcerer 7 and a Spellscale Sorcerer 7 is the difference between free power and not free power.

Or a Wizard 5 versus a Lolth Touched Wizard 5 is the difference between not free power, and free power.

[Segev]

But the bloodline level text does not in fact, grant you the ability to exceed the actual cap of the PrC. Whether or not you can do that is basically nonsense. You can't say the rules allow you to do that, because they don't, and you can't say the prohibit it, because they don't. Instead they just do not compute.

What happens when you are Hellfire Warlock 4 is not that you have 8d6 hellfire blast, it's that you are never hellfire warlock 4. So you can't say that class features that only apply to 3 levels by RAW apply past that, they just require you to make up content, which fine, whatever, you have to do that so you do that, but it's not RAW.

The Hellfire Warlock class feature - in the text, not the table (and text trumps table) - specifies that you gain +2d6 per class level. It does not specify a cap. Therefore, if you somehow can count as a 4th level Hellfire Warlock, you do, in fact, have 8d6 Hellfire Blast. For a "PrC cap" to limit this, it would have to be explicitly stated. Or the ability would have to read, "At level 1, you get 2d6. At level 2, it increases to 4d6. At level 3, it increases to 6d6." Which would (technically) leave level 4+ undefined. That isn't how they're written, however. Level 4 is defined by the progression specifying +2d6 per level. That there are only 3 levels of the class doesn't mean you can't have effective levels that are greater; the Bloodline level mechanics are one such way to have more effective levels.

I disagree, for two reasons. First, because they enumerated everything else it did. If it had this effect, they would have said so. Second, at the very beginning it says "Because the power gain is gradual over a span of twenty levels, a static level adjustment doesn't truly reflect this difference." It is clear they specifically intended to avoid giving an ECL adjustment.

Quite the contrary. If they intended to avoid that, there would have been no reason to spell out that it gave anything. Just have an XP cost at the minimum levels and move on. The only reason to spell out "bloodline levels" as actually being LEVELS is if they take up "space" in your 20-level progression.

Specific trumps general, so where the Bloodline Level rules say something is different, that is different. Where they say something is not different, that something is the same as for a "normal" level. Where they are silent, then again, anything about which they are silent remains the same as for a "normal" level, because there is no specific to trump general.

Therefore, the bloodline levels ARE levels and DO factor into ECL, XP-minima-for-next-level, etc. Only where it explicitly spells out a difference does that difference exist.

As a concrete example, consider a caster who gains a level, and takes the feat Focused Specialist. Now they can expend their focus while casting a spell, for +1 CL. So, they gained one CL on their spell when they levelled, but also a second effective level because of the feat. Yet they didn't gain two levels to their ECL, only one.

True, but irrelevant. They didn't gain a "Focused Specialist Level." They gained a feat which gave them +1 to a calculation of effective level for a specific purpose.

"Bloodline levels" are, quite explicitly, levels. They behave differently in a number of ways, but those ways are expressly enumerated. "Does not raise ECL" is not one of them. It is not stated nor even implied. The closest it comes is saying that it doesn't do everything that normal class levels do.

There are numerous feats for expending bardic song to gain caster levels for you or your allies. I think there are feats to expend turning attempts, too. None of these give an ECL.

Of course not. They're feats, not levels. Note that you expend a resource - a feat - to gain these bonus to level-based calculations. If bloodline levels are not levels, you do not expend any such resource. (In fact, bloodline levels never even say you spend xp on them. Because it is one of those things on which the rules are silent, you DO spend XP on them just as you would a normal level, just as they raise your ECL as would a normal level.)

Errr, did you make those classes up? Soooo many PrCs, even google can't find them all.

The Fatebinder (which I may be misnaming) is in C. Arcane. "Sneaky Bastard" I made up because I'm too lazy to look up the PrCs that grant consistent sneak attack bonuses to see which ones are worded how.

Normal levels raise your CL, bloodline levels don't.

There is no text supporting this assertion.

That is the only difference possible, unless you're going to apply a LA (and let people buy it off?).

This statement is false. There are a number of possible differences; the ones which apply are enumerated (and include "no increase to HD or BAB"). I am not sure what level adjustment has to do with anything, here.

I think the meaning is clear, even if the literary skills of the writer left something to be desired.

Obviously not, since you're reading it and coming to a conclusion that is not supported by the text presented in the rules.

I hope you aren't going to argue that their intent was to make you spend XP for a level, be treated as a character of one level higher, but NOT get a hit die, BAB, saving throws, class abilities, an allotment of skill points?

I am. It's what the rules explicitly say happens. I mean, how much clearer can they be than to say:

"A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features."

If you are going to treat the character as one level higher on their CL after getting a bloodline level, then that is exactly what you are doing.

It is exactly what the rules say to do, assuming you mean "CL" to mean "Character Level."

No. See my previous paragraph. You've made them take a full level, and gotten far less than a real level gives.

That is exactly what the rules say to do. Explicitly.

That makes even less sense than other stuff people have argued, or the text itself.

Er, it's what the text itself says. And I don't see why it fails to make sense; the whole point of "bloodline levels" is clearly to pay for the bonuses given by the bloodline. It is SUPPOSED to be a cost to the PC. Paying a level to partially pay for all those bonuses (or fully pay, in the case of minor bloodlines).

Well, real character levels give them more ranks. If you are going to treat bloodline levels as real levels, then the character should get the HD, BAB, saves, skill points, and levels of class skills. Since they don't, it's not a character level.

The rules disagree with you. It's a character level. It just doesn't increase things the way a normal character level would. It says as much. It does not give HD, BAB, saves, or skill points. It does give skill ranks, does not count for multiclass penalties, and does count for any class-level-based calculations (such as CL or other features which are calculated directly on class level) for all classes the character has.

The rules are explicit on this.

You seem to be objecting that, despite it saying that it doesn't behave like a normal character level, it has to behave like a normal character level to raise the ECL. But it's a LEVEL. It says so. If you can arbitrarily decide that it doesn't count as your level for that XP band, then you can arbitrarily decide it costs no XP. The same leaps of logic apply. This is clearly not intended.

Bloodline levels are MEANT to be a cost to pay for those bloodline bonuses.
That's why they have so many normal-level-things they do not give you. They ARE stand-ins for LA, but the creators decided to throw a bone in class-level-based calculations and skill rank caps, for some reason.

Bloodline levels are intended to be a "penalty." Paying for your Bloodline bonuses by giving up HD, BAB, skill points, and slowing down acquisition of new class features.

You cannot calculate a cost for them if they're not levels. Not without inventing far more complicated, unwritten rules to handle it.

Gaining a level doesn't cost XP, so there's no way to "pay" XP for a Bloodline level that isn't a level and doesn't count towards your ECL. The rules provide no special way to handle this. The rules instead call them "bloodline levels," and refer to "taking" them. "Taking a level" means that you HAVE gained a level, it counts for XP purposes as a level you've taken.

And though this came before Savage Species, I believe, Savage Species provides further precedent for levels that don't grant HD, BAB, skill points, etc.: monster advancement levels. And the "empty" levels there serve exactly the same purpose: increasing effective character level as a form of payment for abilities and powers, without gaining everything that increasing your character level normally would.

[dascarletm]

It's only (mostly) free power if you can acquire the LA at-will. Most sources of LA are from something inherent to your race. The grand majority will be with your character from day 1. Taking that into account, LA buy-off does exactly what it means to do. That is, it removes the penalty at higher levels of play when the benefits from the LA source will most likely be less significant.

For a level 1 party including one player with a +1 LA race. here is the breakdown, Player A has the template, Player B does not.

Spoiler: Long breakdown up to level 6

Show

Levels 1, 2, and 3 play out the same as a normal game. Everyone gets the same experience.

Player A: 6000 XP, reached level 3 (ECL4).
Player B: 6000 XP, reached level 4(ECL4).

Now things will change, player A pays 3,000xp and has no more LA.

Player A: 3000XP, level 3 (ECL3)
Player B: 6000XP, level 4 (ECL4)

Power-wise they are both the same as a game without LA reduction, the only difference is that player A now gains extra XP.

I'm going to assume a party of 4 and they fight CR 4 challenges until the party levels up. if you think this is unfair I'm only doing it for simplicity.

After 9 challenges Player A levels. The party now looks like this

Player A: 6042XP, level 4.
Player B: 8700XP, level 4.

Player A is now rocking his/her level 4 abilities. Something that the party has had for 9 encounters thus far. I hope those racial abilities were worth it. Now A is better than his/her party. That is until 5 encounters roll by.

Player A: 7542XP, level 4.
Player B: 10200XP, level 5.

Player A is now rocking those sweet level 4 abilities, but his/her buddies just got their level 5s. As DnD is a bit swingy in power gained it could be absolutely nothing, or access to level 3 spells. Lets say everyone is now fighting CR 5 challenges. It is going to take 7 encounters for player A to level up, at that point.

Player A: 10342XP, level 5
Player B: 12825XP, level 5

After 6 encounters the rest of the party is leveling up while player A is staying behind.

Player A: 12592XP, level 5
Player B: 15075XP, level 6

I think we can see where I am going with this. I'll stop now because I don't want to keep on doing the math. Someone can pick up where I left off if they want.

The point is, they are going to be fluctuating. Player A is going to sometimes be the same level, and the rest will be ahead of him/her most of the time (though that will depend on what CR challenges you fight). However, at some point this is going to even out. I'm going to guess around level... 10ish?

At that point most CR 1 templates are not going to be worth 1 level. Sure you can say, "it's still free power," but it isn't. You still are at varying fractions of levels behind the party, and that is something. Saying it is free is just objectively wrong.

[Darrin]

If a bloodline level is going to raise the character's level, then why wouldn't they give HP, BAB, saving throws, skill points, and class abilities/new spells with it? That makes no sense. You're making the character a level higher, but with only a minor gain in power, far less than a character would get with a real level. Avoiding that is clearly the intent behind bloodline levels; the text even says so, in a round-about way.

It's very difficult to tell what the designers thought would be a minor or major gain in power. There's an argument that the list of special abilities that bloodlines grant over the course of the PC's career is an adequate trade-off for losing HP/BAB/saves/skills/class abilities. These are, after all, the same designers who thought that Dragon Disciple was a sorcerer-friendly PrC, or that a sorcerer would want to spend five of his precious feat slots on Draconic Legacy to get three crappy spells added to his spells known. There are countless examples of the designers misunderstanding the cost of, say, a caster level, bonus feat, SLA, etc.

Bloodline levels appear to be an alternative to imposing crippling LA or slapping on wonky templates for players that wanted a "descended from {X}" character concept. Gaining HP/BAB/saves/skills along with the entire package of level-dependent abilities may have been a step too far for the designers. They may have been trying to mimic the effects of LA +1/+2/+3, and felt more comfortable that PCs were giving up HP/BAB/saves/skills/etc. Or they may have just been trying to avoid arguments about, "Wait, why does a major red dragon bloodline only give me 1d4 for HPs? Shouldn't I get 1d12 for being descended from a dragon?"

Personally, I prefer method #1, but without any specific text that describes how XP totals are adjusted, I have to conclude that the only RAW interpretation is that bloodlines count towards ECL, and giving up the HP/BAB/saves/skills/etc. was supposed to be part of the cost to balance out all of the new abilities gained.

[Andorn]

You claim to be contradicting my point that LA buyoff rules are free power for nothing, or non functional, you can't use the nonfunctional parts as proof that I am wrong, because that mean's I'm right.

Sigh. This isn't about being right, it is about understanding correctly. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that at level 1, if you have a level adjustment, you are getting powers that you haven't paid for or worked for in some way. Do I have that correct?

Well, if that is what you are trying to communicate, then I *agree* with you. But, I don't think it is particularly important, because very few games make players start with truly nothing and earn their first class level, though, so everybody starts with *something* that was "free". Games that start with characters at higher levels got ALL their early levels for "free", so what? That doesn't mean the system is broken.

If you have a level adjustment at level 1, you pay for it later in reduced XP gain relative to a group of people who don't have any level adjustments. You pay for it again if you buy off level adjustments later. Sure, LA+1 isn't *much* of a burden, but it isn't much of a gain, either, compared to gaining a full level, or a higher LA.

If you have already gained enough levels to qualify for buyoff, you can avoid the XP reduction penalty in those early, and buy it off immediately when you acquire it, so that will reduce your costs (although you also didn't get the benefit of the abilities for those early levels, either). That comes somewhat closer to "free" power, but really it isn't totally "free", is it?

As for being non-functional, how can you say that? If you have a level adjustment you XP slower than if you didn't, because you get less XP for the same encounters. If you buy the level off, that is a permanent loss of XP that otherwise you could use to gain a level. You may feel the amount of XP is too little to matter, but there *is* a cost. You may not like how it functions, but it does function.

Personally, I'm not too concerned about LA+1, because I don't think it has that much of an impact, either for in-game character power or for cost. I'm more concerned about higher LA, because I think the mechanics are broken. I've already given concrete examples of the mechanics, and pointed out that it makes characters too fragile to stay with a group in a long campaign. I've outlined a method of LA buyoff that I think makes the problem more manageable, so players can keep a group together in long-lasting campaigns.

LA buyoff rules are free power for nothing at LA 1, they are basically non functional at LA 3, at LA 2, they are just like any other dumb thing that is free power at high levels and a crippling handicap at low levels, like the slow trait on Wizards and Sorcerers, or being an Anthrobat Druid (except that the break point is later than level 6), or being an Ancient Druid who only gets bonuses and no penalties.

LA rules suck. LA buyoff rules don't fix any of the problems with LA rules, and introduce a new problem of their own. They also take the obvious worst possible system of LA reduction, making high LA's take forever to reduce or literally never reduce, but giving the low LAs free power for nothing immediately, even though literally reversing that would be better in every way.

Well, I agree with you that the buyoff rules suck, but I don't think they should be completely reversed. It's not all or nothing with me, there is a middle road. Let ALL characters buy off a level immediately. Treat each source of adjustment separately. So, if you have a LA+4 and a LA+2, you can buy off one level from each immediately, if you want to pay the XP. Then you are +3 and +1. A few levels later, buy off some more. That way you pay for the extra abilities over time, as you make use of them.

Saying "But being a level 1 character with 4 LA still sucks!" doesn't prove me wrong about any of that, it doesn't even contradict anything I said. You can refuse to address anything I said if you want, but if that's your goal, why are you quoting me when you are talking to some other person (or no one) and not addressing anything I said?

Well, I don't think you understood my points at all, if that is all you got out of what I have written.

[Andorn]

The way I read it, a bloodline does & must affect ECL.

However... the rules seem to indicate that if you skip a bloodline level, you don't get the get new benefits but
you still get to keep the benefits you already got....

So this could in theory allow for free stuff at levels 1 and 2... However as a GM I would rule that a PC MUST take at least the first bloodline level in order to keep any of the benefits...

So, you think they intended to make the character 1 level higher with each bloodline level, but deny that character the hit die, BAB, saving throw bonuses, skill points, and new spells per level, feats, stat increases, and class abilities?

That makes no sense.

The character is either a level higher or it isn't. If you aren't getting all the stuff I just mentioned, it makes no sense to treat the character as 1 level higher when it is XP award time.

As for the "free stuff" at level 1 and 2, if you don't take the bloodline level, you forever after suffer a 20% penalty to XP. What's "free" about that?

[Beheld]

Sigh. This isn't about being right, it is about understanding correctly. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that at level 1, if you have a level adjustment, you are getting powers that you haven't paid for or worked for in some way. Do I have that correct?

No, you do not have me right. You have no where within a billion miles of me.

If you have a level adjustment at level 1, you pay for it later in reduced XP gain relative to a group of people who don't have any level adjustments. You pay for it again if you buy off level adjustments later. Sure, LA+1 isn't *much* of a burden, but it isn't much of a gain, either, compared to gaining a full level, or a higher LA.

Once again. 1) If you have 1 LA, you may actually start with 1000 more XP than everyone else. 2) Even if you don't, the amount you lose from being higher level from 1-3 is less than the amount you gain from 4-5. Less. You earn back three levels of reduced XP gain in one level.

If you have already gained enough levels to qualify for buyoff, you can avoid the XP reduction penalty in those early, and buy it off immediately when you acquire it, so that will reduce your costs (although you also didn't get the benefit of the abilities for those early levels, either). That comes somewhat closer to "free" power, but really it isn't totally "free", is it?

Yes, it's totally free. You get some LA, and then you are the same level as everyone else for 95% of the rest of the game. That's free power.

[Andorn]

Quite the contrary. If they intended to avoid that, there would have been no reason to spell out that it gave anything. Just have an XP cost at the minimum levels and move on. The only reason to spell out "bloodline levels" as actually being LEVELS is if they take up "space" in your 20-level progression.

Specific trumps general, so where the Bloodline Level rules say something is different, that is different. Where they say something is not different, that something is the same as for a "normal" level. Where they are silent, then again, anything about which they are silent remains the same as for a "normal" level, because there is no specific to trump general.

Therefore, the bloodline levels ARE levels and DO factor into ECL, XP-minima-for-next-level, etc. Only where it explicitly spells out a difference does that difference exist.

Except the text specifically says "Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's level the way a normal class does, but they do provide certain benefits."

It explicitly says it doesn't increase their class level. And, to apply a level increase without the Hit Dice, BAB, saves, skill points, increase in spells known/usable, or class skills just doesn't make any sense.

"Bloodline levels" are, quite explicitly, levels. They behave differently in a number of ways, but those ways are expressly enumerated. "Does not raise ECL" is not one of them. It is not stated nor even implied. The closest it comes is saying that it doesn't do everything that normal class levels do.

"Does raise ECL" is not one of them, either. However, given all the things they don't do, it makes more sense that they don't raise character level than that they do, along with the telling phrase "do not increase a character's level".

Of course not. They're feats, not levels. Note that you expend a resource - a feat - to gain these bonus to level-based calculations. If bloodline levels are not levels, you do not expend any such resource. (In fact, bloodline levels never even say you spend xp on them. Because it is one of those things on which the rules are silent, you DO spend XP on them just as you would a normal level, just as they raise your ECL as would a normal level.)

Sure you did, you expended the time and effort to gain the XP that went into the ability. And, people expend XP on other things that aren't levels, so not all XP expenditures are character levels.

The Fatebinder (which I may be misnaming) is in C. Arcane. "Sneaky Bastard" I made up because I'm too lazy to look up the PrCs that grant consistent sneak attack bonuses to see which ones are worded how.

Ah, you are referring to the "Fatespinner". "Each day, a fatespinner can use a number of points of spin equal to his fatespinner class level."

Sounds like luck points from the luck feats in Complete Scoundrel, or action points from Eberron. So, a 1 level dip in Fatespinner and 3 bloodline levels gets you 4 spin points to use. Wow, I think we have a new build concept: 3 bloodline levels, and one level dips in a ton of PrCs. Talk about versatility.

If you have two bloodlines, you can take 6 bloodline levels. A one level dip in Warlock gives you a 4d6 EB. One level dip in sorcerer gives you 4d4+4 magic missiles, but why bother?

There is no text supporting this assertion.

Yeah, there is, see above. You can try to twist it, but I think the most obvious meaning is the intended one. It says it doesn't raise character level, "the way a normal class level does." You are inferring that it must raise class level in some other way. I think you're working it too hard. The fact it doesn't give any of the normal class level benefits is a clear indication how we should read it.

This statement is false. There are a number of possible differences; the ones which apply are enumerated (and include "no increase to HD or BAB"). I am not sure what level adjustment has to do with anything, here.

Well, every time you gain an actual class level, you get hit dice. Always. There are no exceptions. You also always get skill points. Always, no exceptions. You usually get BAB and/or saving throws. Even with classes with slow progression, you almost always get at least one of those. Even racial paragon levels give hit dice, skill points, BAB and saves.

So, bloodline levels aren't real class levels. The only other mechanism for raising a character's level is a level adjustment. The text explicitly says bloodline levels aren't "a static level adjustment". You could try to read that as some sort of non-static level adjustment, but again I think you'd be reading more into it than is actually there.

Obviously not, since you're reading it and coming to a conclusion that is not supported by the text presented in the rules.

I am. It's what the rules explicitly say happens. I mean, how much clearer can they be than to say:

"A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features."

It also says they "do not increase the character's character level the way a normal class does but they do provide certain benefits".

It is exactly what the rules say to do, assuming you mean "CL" to mean "Character Level."

Yes, character level is exactly what I meant. It is exactly what the rules say not to do. The rules explicitly say a bloodline level does not increase a character's class level the way a normal class level does. You are reading into the phrasing that they must increase the character level in some other way. I disagree with that interpretation. If they had intended it to be a real level, then why deny the character all the standard benefits of a class level?

That is exactly what the rules say to do. Explicitly.

Er, it's what the text itself says. And I don't see why it fails to make sense; the whole point of "bloodline levels" is clearly to pay for the bonuses given by the bloodline. It is SUPPOSED to be a cost to the PC. Paying a level to partially pay for all those bonuses (or fully pay, in the case of minor bloodlines).

Well, for "all those bonuses" it is 3 levels worth of XP, not just one, or a 20% XP penalty for life.

The rules disagree with you. It's a character level. It just doesn't increase things the way a normal character level would. It says as much. It does not give HD, BAB, saves, or skill points. It does give skill ranks, does not count for multiclass penalties, and does count for any class-level-based calculations (such as CL or other features which are calculated directly on class level) for all classes the character has.

The rules are explicit, it does not raise a character's character level. You just seem to not want to believe it, and so you keep insisting it reads some other way, which just isn't there.

The rules are explicit on this.

You seem to be objecting that, despite it saying that it doesn't behave like a normal character level, it has to behave like a normal character level to raise the ECL. But it's a LEVEL. It says so. If you can arbitrarily decide that it doesn't count as your level for that XP band, then you can arbitrarily decide it costs no XP. The same leaps of logic apply. This is clearly not intended.

Well, the game has different types of level. Spells have a spell level, and a caster level. Classes have a class level. Characters have a character level. Encounters have an encounter level. Saying it is a LEVEL doesn't mean it is a character level. Again, it explicitly says it doesn't increase a character's character level.

[quote]
Bloodline levels are MEANT to be a cost to pay for those bloodline bonuses.
That's why they have so many normal-level-things they do not give you. They ARE stand-ins for LA, but the creators decided to throw a bone in class-level-based calculations and skill rank caps, for some reason.
[quote]

Well, that cost is the XP cost of this pseudo-level. (my word).

Bloodline levels are intended to be a "penalty." Paying for your Bloodline bonuses by giving up HD, BAB, skill points, and slowing down acquisition of new class features.

The cost is the XP you spend. Making the character a full level higher, without benefit of all the stuff you always get with a real level, for the few bonuses you have at the time you take your bloodline level is not justified, and trying to read that into it makes no sense.

If we follow your way of reading it, a 1st level character, with one hit die, gains XP for level two. He has gained a +2 bonus on one skill check from his bloodline. So now he takes the bloodline level. All he gets is an increase in his skill cap, but has no skill points to take advantage of it. He has no hit die, no BAB, no saves, no feats, no new spells. Very few class abilities are going to increase with a single class level, not at level 1. To get XP parity he's going to have to fight level 2 monsters, though. That makes no sense. If he waits until level 2, and then takes level 3 as a bloodline level, well, he will get some minor increases, an extra d4 on his magic missile, for example.

You cannot calculate a cost for them if they're not levels. Not without inventing far more complicated, unwritten rules to handle it.

Granted, they should have made the cost explicit, but it isn't much of a stretch to say it is however much XP you need for your next class level.

Gaining a level doesn't cost XP, so there's no way to "pay" XP for a Bloodline level that isn't a level and doesn't count towards your ECL. The rules provide no special way to handle this. The rules instead call them "bloodline levels," and refer to "taking" them. "Taking a level" means that you HAVE gained a level, it counts for XP purposes as a level you've taken.

The language is a mess, no doubt about it. So we have to look at what the text says, take it as close to face value as we can, and fill in the holes with what seems most consistent with the established game balance. In other words, pretty much what people always have to do with some product that got rushed out the door to get it to market.

And though this came before Savage Species, I believe, Savage Species provides further precedent for levels that don't grant HD, BAB, skill points, etc.: monster advancement levels. And the "empty" levels there serve exactly the same purpose: increasing effective character level as a form of payment for abilities and powers, without gaining everything that increasing your character level normally would.

But racial paragon levels in UA give hit dice and BAB and saves and skill points. The stuff in SS had to fit in with the existing starting hit dice of creatures already in the books.

[Andorn]

It's only (mostly) free power if you can acquire the LA at-will. Most sources of LA are from something inherent to your race. The grand majority will be with your character from day 1. Taking that into account, LA buy-off does exactly what it means to do. That is, it removes the penalty at higher levels of play when the benefits from the LA source will most likely be less significant.

For a level 1 party including one player with a +1 LA race. here is the breakdown, Player A has the template, Player B does not.

I'm sorry, but your example is incorrect. The player with the LA+1 is going to get less XP per encounter than the level 1 characters in the group. When those folks hit 6,000 Xp, the person with the LA+1 will be at 5K and change, or maybe a bit less, depending on what they fight.

[Andorn]

I just found an FAQ from WotC, dated from June of 2008:

www.adnd3egame.com/documents/mainfaq.pdf

It makes a couple of points about bloodline levels. The first is that since rogue sneak attack damage isn't a level formula, that bloodline levels don't advance it. Looking at Warlock, this is also true, so bloodline levels will not advance EB (Hellfire Warlock is a different matter). While the text says that EB gets stronger with level, it gives no formula. It is all in the class table. Also, the progression changes at level 13.

The second is this:

"Bloodline levels don’t stack with class levels for the purpose of meeting prerequisites (such as the minimum fighter level for selecting Weapon Specialization)."

Unfortunately, it doesn't address the overall character level issue. The other stuff definitely nerfs the power of bloodline levels a bit, though.


Some stuff from Andy Collins:

http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...d/ps/20040207a

Interesting quote:
"Andy: Unearthed Arcana didn't undergo anything like "traditional" playtesting. In a sense, though, Unearthed Arcana has been in playtesting for years, as it includes many rules subsystems first published in other d20 games, as well as never-before-published house rules and other personalized variants contributed by designers from their own house games. As the foreword advises, DMs and players cracking open this book should go in with their eyes open -- it's not for the faint of heart."

Discussion thread in which Andy Collins answers some questions:

http://gameschat19968.yuku.com/topic/2348#.VqsvL7ZMFpg

[Segev]

So, you think they intended to make the character 1 level higher with each bloodline level, but deny that character the hit die, BAB, saving throw bonuses, skill points, and new spells per level, feats, stat increases, and class abilities?

That makes no sense.

The character is either a level higher or it isn't. If you aren't getting all the stuff I just mentioned, it makes no sense to treat the character as 1 level higher when it is XP award time.

It makes perfect sense. LA does the exact same thing: it increases ECL without granting even skill rank caps. Bloodline levels do increase ECL, just "not the way that normal character levels do." But they do "provide some benefits."

As for the "free stuff" at level 1 and 2, if you don't take the bloodline level, you forever after suffer a 20% penalty to XP. What's "free" about that?

I believe his point is that, if the game only lasts until 2nd level or even 3rd level, you never pay anything by not taking the bloodline level.

Except the text specifically says "Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's level the way a normal class does, but they do provide certain benefits."

You have to read the whole sentence. You keep insisting on ignoring "the way a normal class does." That doesn't mean nothing. It means that it DOES increase a character's level, just not exactly the same way normal class levels do. If it meant "does not increase character's level at all," it would say either that, or at least stop after "level," because the rest is extraneous.

It explicitly says it doesn't increase their class level.

No, it says it does "not increase a character's level the way a normal class does." Technically, it uses the phrase "character level," which, by itself, would be a stronger support for your position. However, "the way a normal class does," undermines your point.

And, to apply a level increase without the Hit Dice, BAB, saves, skill points, increase in spells known/usable, or class skills just doesn't make any sense.

It makes perfect sense. It may seem a silly thing to do, but it is a concept that is easily done (as evidenced by Savage Species and LA, the latter of which predates UA by a fair bit). So it makes sense in that it is something that can be done without too much confusion.

Your character level is the level you are on the XP chart. Bloodline levels count as one of your levels on that chart. They do not grant HD, BAB, save bonuses, or skill points. This doesn't make taking up space on the level chart meaningless; a Bloodline level fills a range on your XP chart. They mean that you must get to the NEXT range band on the XP chart to gain a new level in another class. This is a clear mechanical meaning. It's the meaning held by level adjustment and by savage species progressions which don't advance BAB or HD or the like.

You don't have to LIKE it, but you can't correctly argue that it makes no sense. It makes perfect sense, in that it both has mechanical meaning and it suits the role as a cost. A level that doesn't grant HD, BAB, saves, or skill points is definitely a cost compared to a level that would grant those things.

"Does raise ECL" is not one of them, either. However, given all the things they don't do, it makes more sense that they don't raise character level than that they do, along with the telling phrase "do not increase a character's level".

It specifically enumerates the things it "does not do." The things that make it fail to raise character level "the way normal class levels do." Anything it doesn't enumerate has no specific rule, so the general rule takes over. The general rule says that a level raises your ECL.

Sure you did, you expended the time and effort to gain the XP that went into the ability. And, people expend XP on other things that aren't levels, so not all XP expenditures are character levels.

Nowhere do the rules on Bloodline Levels say "expend XP." You don't expend XP when you level up.

No, seriously. Look at how the rules for leveling up work:

Once you have a certain amount of XP accumulated, you gain a level. Rules that require you to expend XP delay level acquisition. Level loss causes XP loss in order to drop you to the XP band that corresponds to your new level. But actually gaining levels never, ever involves SPENDING experience points! It involves accumulating them.

Bloodline levels don't say that you expend XP. The house rules that treat Bloodline levels as if they do have you expend your XP when you should level up to drop yourself down to the bottom of your current level, prior to leveling up. But that procedure is nowhere spelled out, referenced, or even suggested by the RAW. The RAW would state that you're expending XP if you were.

You're not. You're gaining a level. If you are taking a Bloodline level as your third level, you have just gotten to 3000 XP. You take a Bloodline level as your third level. You still have 3000 XP, and earn more. When you hit 6000 XP, you level up to level 4. It is literally the only mechanical meaning of "taking a level" in D&D 3.5.

Every example of spending XP to reduce your effective level refers explicitly to "spending XP." LA buyoff, reducing your level permanently, even magic item creation and the like refers to SPENDING XP, not to "leveling up without raising your ECL."

Put it another way: If you "take a bloodline level," but it doesn't raise your ECL, at what XP total do you actually gain a new level? Note again that nowhere in the RAW does it say to reduce your XP total, nor to spend XP, when you take a Bloodline level. So when you take a Bloodline level, your XP total does not change.

Do you immediately gain both the Bloodline level AND a normal level, because you've enough XP to level up?

THAT is nonsensical.

The only sensible reading of the rules is that a Bloodline level is a level. It occupies space on your level-up chart.

Ah, you are referring to the "Fatespinner". "Each day, a fatespinner can use a number of points of spin equal to his fatespinner class level."

Sounds like luck points from the luck feats in Complete Scoundrel, or action points from Eberron. So, a 1 level dip in Fatespinner and 3 bloodline levels gets you 4 spin points to use. Wow, I think we have a new build concept: 3 bloodline levels, and one level dips in a ton of PrCs. Talk about versatility.

If you have two bloodlines, you can take 6 bloodline levels. A one level dip in Warlock gives you a 4d6 EB. One level dip in sorcerer gives you 4d4+4 magic missiles, but why bother?

Indeed. But more to the point, Fatespinner doesn't say you have a maximum of 5 spin points. (Thanks for looking that up for me, by the way.) So if your Fatespinner level is 8, because, for example, you've taken 3 Bloodline levels, then you get 8 spin points per day.

Yeah, there is, see above. You can try to twist it, but I think the most obvious meaning is the intended one. It says it doesn't raise character level, "the way a normal class level does." You are inferring that it must raise class level in some other way. I think you're working it too hard. The fact it doesn't give any of the normal class level benefits is a clear indication how we should read it.

See my discussion with several bolded lines above. Your reading requires inventing rules that aren't there, or a completely degenerate, nonsensical set of consequences (e.g. gaining a bloodline level also immediately gains you a class level, because your XP total is unchanged and you have not officially gained a level, somehow).

To reiterate: The rules don't say you expend XP on Bloodline levels. They do call them "levels." They do say that you "take" them. Taking levels doesn't change your XP value; it fills a certain band of XP with a given level. When you take a Bloodline level, therefore, you have increased your level, because you're in a new band on the XP chart.

Well, every time you gain an actual class level, you get hit dice. Always. There are no exceptions. You also always get skill points. Always, no exceptions. You usually get BAB and/or saving throws. Even with classes with slow progression, you almost always get at least one of those. Even racial paragon levels give hit dice, skill points, BAB and saves.

Which is all irrelevant, since Bloodline levels explicitly say they do not behave the same way normal class levels do. It's in the line you keep quoting and then ignoring the "the way normal class levels do" part.

So, bloodline levels aren't real class levels.

Correct. They're Bloodline levels. Which are still levels.

The only other mechanism for raising a character's level is a level adjustment.

Not entirely true. Unless you want to take back your "no exceptions" statements above and say that Savage Species monster-class-levels are "class levels."

The text explicitly says bloodline levels aren't "a static level adjustment".

No, they say that the power of a bloodline cannot be represented by a static level adjustment. That's quite a different statement. If it could be, a bloodline would have an LA of +1, +2, or +3, paid up front, like other monster races and templates.

You could try to read that as some sort of non-static level adjustment, but again I think you'd be reading more into it than is actually there.

I'm reading what is explicitly there. You're reading things into it that are not because you're hung up on the idea that HD, BAB, saves, and skill points are essential to something being a "level." This is patently untrue, as numerous examples and the very way the rules are written for Bloodlines demonstrate. All something needs to do to be "a level" is fill a "slot" on the list of range bands of XP. It makes you count as a level higher and therefore need more XP than you currently have to gain a new level of any sort.

[dascarletm]

I'm sorry, but your example is incorrect. The player with the LA+1 is going to get less XP per encounter than the level 1 characters in the group. When those folks hit 6,000 Xp, the person with the LA+1 will be at 5K and change, or maybe a bit less, depending on what they fight.

My example is in fact not incorrect. At least in this example, since ECL levels 1-3 receive the same experience.

[Beheld]

My example is in fact not incorrect. At least in this example, since ECL levels 1-3 receive the same experience.

Wow, you are right (well I haven't looked at the DMG charts to check, but at least according to that encounter calculator) +1 LA even from character creation is just as much free power for nothing as later applied templates, since you get the same XP from 1-4 no matter what level you are.

[dascarletm]

Wow, you are right (well I haven't looked at the DMG charts to check, but at least according to that encounter calculator) +1 LA even from character creation is just as much free power for nothing as later applied templates, since you get the same XP from 1-4 no matter what level you are.

Well, then you look at the rest of the work I did and see that it isn't free. LA reduction turns you from being 1 level behind the party 100% of the time, to a decreasing % as you gain levels.

It is a better deal than no LA buyoff.

It isn't free.

Alternatively here is another source.

[Segev]

Wow, you are right (well I haven't looked at the DMG charts to check, but at least according to that encounter calculator) +1 LA even from character creation is just as much free power for nothing as later applied templates, since you get the same XP from 1-4 no matter what level you are.

It's free power at level 1. If you assume that it really IS fair, then it's no longer free power by level 2; when everybody else is level 2, they've caught up to the LA+1 1-HD character. In practice, they're usually more powerful than he is, given that LA is usually not as strong as the levels it adjusts through.

[ComaVision]

Query: From the example in UA, it's clear that Bloodline Levels do not count as character levels for the purposes of gaining the benefits of a bloodline (ex. a level 2 sorcer/bloodline 1 character can't have a 3rd level bloodline bonus). If bloodline levels count as character levels for ECL, then why do the bloodline charts go to 20? You'd have to be level 23 to have all the benefits of the chart, assuming bloodline levels count for ECL.

[Segev]

Query: From the example in UA, it's clear that Bloodline Levels do not count as character levels for the purposes of gaining the benefits of a bloodline (ex. a level 2 sorcer/bloodline 1 character can't have a 3rd level bloodline bonus). If bloodline levels count as character levels for ECL, then why do the bloodline charts go to 20? You'd have to be level 23 to have all the benefits of the chart, assuming bloodline levels count for ECL.

I am afraid I only have the SRD from which to work; I do not see examples in there.

However, example characters are OFTEN built incorrectly in 3.5 books, sadly. And though they CAN help show intent, they do not necessarily do so.

The RAW provide for bloodline bonuses being based on character level. It would mean, then, that you would, in fact, get them when you gain any sort of level, even a bloodline level.

The core point remains that there is literally no provision in the general rules nor the specific bloodline level rules for losing XP. It speaks solely of "taking" a bloodline level. That means it MUST fill the "level slot" you have available when you take it; if it does not, then you immediately gain ANOTHER level of any sort you like, and the bloodline level didn't cost a thing. At all. It in fact just gave you MORE bonuses. If that was the intent, there would be no penalty for failing to take bloodline levels. In fact, you should take them all at level 1, because you can and they cost you nothing and they let you push your skill rank caps and any CL you might get from your very first class level up by 3.

Now, "it would be broken" isn't a RAW argument. But it is a point to keep track of when discussing whether something would really work that way.

The RAW state that you take a bloodline level. When you take a level, your ECL increases. It has to, because your XP doesn't decrease when you level up; your XP determines what level you ARE.



One more time:

A major red dragon bloodline human warlock reaches 3000 XP, having taken 2 levels of Warlock. He chooses, as his third level, to take a bloodline level.

His CL increases to 4 for Warlock invocations. His class skill rank cap increases to 6 (though he has no skill points with which to help reach that cap at this time). He gains no new invocations, no new class features, no BAB, HD, or save bonus increases.

If, as you say, the Bloodline level does NOT increase his level, then what happens?

No rules say he loses XP, so he's still at 3000 XP. That's enough to gain a third level. Does he immediately also gain a 3rd level (which he could put into Warlock)? Does he lose XP? Where do the rules say he does? How many? 2000, to put him at the bottom of 2nd level? Where do the rules say so?

The rules don't say so. They say he takes a bloodline level. That bloodline level is his third level. He gains a fourth level at 6000 XP, which he probably will put into Warlock.

This preserves the notion of balance purported in paying for the bloodline powers with bloodline levels, because it is a legitimate cost (hit points, BAB, save bonuses, skill points). It avoids awkward questions about how to adjust XP when no XP adjustment is listed, or how to handle a level that isn't a level when the XP says you should have a certain number of levels. It is similar to Savage Species approaches to monster "class" levels, and has the same motive as a Level Adjustment. And it is 100% consistent with the RAW, requiring no extra words be read into it that are not there, and no extra rules be invented to handle things that arise from it.

[Beheld]

Well, then you look at the rest of the work I did and see that it isn't free. LA reduction turns you from being 1 level behind the party 100% of the time, to a decreasing % as you gain levels.

You showed that by level 5 you are spending more than half of each level as the same level as everyone else. Since you can only buyoff at ECL 4 anyway, that means that within one (of their) level(s) you are already spending half the time at the same level as them. That's pretty much totally free power for nothing, since by level 6 it is even more, level 7 like 80-90% and level 8, all the time.

That's free power for nothing, Turning LA 1 into LA .5 would already be worth it if that was all it did, and it does more than that after they've leveled once. You get an LA, and you lose basically nothing.

Also all your math ignored the rules for Starting a character with LA (the rules say that you start with 1k XP if you have +1 LA).

It's free power at level 1. If you assume that it really IS fair, then it's no longer free power by level 2; when everybody else is level 2, they've caught up to the LA+1 1-HD character. In practice, they're usually more powerful than he is, given that LA is usually not as strong as the levels it adjusts through.

Once again. I'm not talking about level 1 being free power (sure it is) I'm talking about how you buy it off and then are just exactly the same as another character but with LA.

However you are completely wrong about them catching up by level 2. By the time everyone else is level 2 you are 1000xp away from level 3 and they are 2000XP away.

Also, frankly, aside from new spell levels, LA is usually worth as much as a level (if it's one of the ones worth taking). So when they hit level 3 and you are still a level 2 +1LA character, that's actually the first time you are ever noticeably weaker than them, and even that doesn't last long. And as I said before, when they are level 5, you spend more than half of that level as a level 5 character with a free +1 LA.

[ComaVision]

I am afraid I only have the SRD from which to work; I do not see examples in there.

Spoiler: Examples from the SRD

Show

For example, A 1st-level character with a major bloodline (silver dragon) receives a +2 bonus on Sense Motive checks as a bloodline trait. When he reaches 2nd character level, he gains the Alertness feat as a bloodline trait. Before he reaches 3rd character level, he must take a level of bloodline in order to continue gaining bloodline traits. if he reaches 3rd character level and has no bloodline levels, he does not gain the bloodline trait due him at 3rd character level (Strength +1) and must take a 20% reduction on all future XP gains. If he later meets the minimum required bloodline levels, he gains his 3rd-level trait at that time (as well as any other traits he may have failed to receive for not taking his bloodline level right away), and the XP reduction no longer applies to future gains. Before reaching his 6th character level, he must have taken two levels of bloodline in order to keep gaining bloodline traits. If he takes his third bloodline level before reaching 12th character level, he becomes eligible to gain all the traits of his bloodline (as they become available when he reaches new character levels).

It seems that the most reasonable interpretation is that your experience progression is permanently off-set. I'd rather "pay" it just for ease of book-keeping. It doesn't contribute to ECL and you don't get a free level.

[dascarletm]

You showed that by level 5 you are spending more than half of each level as the same level as everyone else. Since you can only buyoff at ECL 4 anyway, that means that within one (of their) level(s) you are already spending half the time at the same level as them. That's pretty much totally free power for nothing,

Being behind in level a % of the time =/= nothing.
If I told you that your character is going to be 20% of the game 1 level behind the other members of the party, and you get nothing in return. If that is, according to you nothing, then you would have no problem with that. I mean you're saying it doesn't matter at all, but it does matter. We just disagree that LA +1 equals a level at all levels. The point of LA buyoff is that you assume as your level increases the difference decreases

since by level 6 it is even more, level 7 like 80-90% and level 8, all the time.

Maybe, you'll have to do the math to prove it.

That's free power for nothing, Turning LA 1 into LA .5 would already be worth it if that was all it did, and it does more than that after they've leveled once. You get an LA, and you lose basically nothing.

Again, being behind in level a % of the time =/= nothing. You can argue that it is not as large of a drawback as what an LA+1 race gives you, but it isn't nothing.

It's an optional rule, if you don't believe in the premise behind it then don't use it. If you do believe, then it delivers on what it seeks out to do.

Also all your math ignored the rules for Starting a character with LA (the rules say that you start with 1k XP if you have +1 LA).
...
However you are completely wrong about them catching up by level 2. By the time everyone else is level 2 you are 1000xp away from level 3 and they are 2000XP away.

Never seen that, I'd like to know where it says that. Either way, that's a problem with a DM not starting all players with the same XP. This is not a problem with LA buyoff, and I don't see it being a particularly interesting/worthwhile avenue to follow.

Once again. I'm not talking about level 1 being free power (sure it is) I'm talking about how you buy it off and then are just exactly the same as another character but with LA.

Also, frankly, aside from new spell levels, LA is usually worth as much as a level (if it's one of the ones worth taking). So when they hit level 3 and you are still a level 2 +1LA character, that's actually the first time you are ever noticeably weaker than them, and even that doesn't last long. And as I said before, when they are level 5, you spend more than half of that level as a level 5 character with a free +1 LA.

Except not all levels are equal. In general in DnD levels are worth more as you level up. (Yes, there are exceptions. No, you don't need to point them out). The point of this is at high levels LA is theoretically the power gap between n and n-1 increases as n increases. Since most sources of LA provide static benefits you need something to bridge the gap. Since half levels don't exist this delivers on that.

Sure, at certain points of the campaign LA guy will be the same level. Other times he/she will be one level lower with a LA source which has benefits that are... possibly relevant at this level.

Either way, if you disagree on the basic premise, "LA is worth less the higher you go in level." Then it is obviously not for you.

[Segev]

However you are completely wrong about them catching up by level 2. By the time everyone else is level 2 you are 1000xp away from level 3 and they are 2000XP away.

How do you figure? If you start at the same XP level as everybody else (0) in a level 1 game, but you're playing a 1 HD 1 LA character, you are still gaining XP at the same rate. When everybody hits level 2 at 1000 XP, you are also still ECL 2 with 1000 XP.

Having a Level Adjustment doesn't magically give you XP. See the Lycanthropy rules for backup: afflicted Lycanthropes get a bunch of HD and LA, but their XP doesn't jump. They just don't get to gain any more levels until their XP catches up with their ECL.

Spoiler: Examples from the SRD

Show

For example, A 1st-level character with a major bloodline (silver dragon) receives a +2 bonus on Sense Motive checks as a bloodline trait. When he reaches 2nd character level, he gains the Alertness feat as a bloodline trait. Before he reaches 3rd character level, he must take a level of bloodline in order to continue gaining bloodline traits. if he reaches 3rd character level and has no bloodline levels, he does not gain the bloodline trait due him at 3rd character level (Strength +1) and must take a 20% reduction on all future XP gains. If he later meets the minimum required bloodline levels, he gains his 3rd-level trait at that time (as well as any other traits he may have failed to receive for not taking his bloodline level right away), and the XP reduction no longer applies to future gains. Before reaching his 6th character level, he must have taken two levels of bloodline in order to keep gaining bloodline traits. If he takes his third bloodline level before reaching 12th character level, he becomes eligible to gain all the traits of his bloodline (as they become available when he reaches new character levels).

It seems that the most reasonable interpretation is that your experience progression is permanently off-set. I'd rather "pay" it just for ease of book-keeping. It doesn't contribute to ECL and you don't get a free level.

Actually... the example supports my position.

It says, "if he reaches 3rd character level and has no bloodline levels, he does not gain the bloodline trait due him at 3rd character level (Strength +1) and must take a 20% reduction on all future XP gains."

That's a big "if."

If he takes, as his third level, a bloodline level, then that whole clause about not receiving his Strength +1 bloodline bonus is invalidated because he has his bloodline level by level 3.

[ComaVision]

Actually... the example supports my position.

It says, "if he reaches 3rd character level and has no bloodline levels, he does not gain the bloodline trait due him at 3rd character level (Strength +1) and must take a 20% reduction on all future XP gains."

That's a big "if."

If he takes, as his third level, a bloodline level, then that whole clause about not receiving his Strength +1 bloodline bonus is invalidated because he has his bloodline level by level 3.

If he has not taken a bloodline level by his 3rd character level. The bloodline level doesn't count as a character level except for some express purposes.

Don't you think the examples would be written differently if bloodline levels counted for bloodline traits? It doesn't say, "if the character takes a bloodline level as his 3rd level, he then gains the bloodline trait due to him" or "if the character doesn't take a bloodline level as his 3rd level, he does not gain the bloodline trait due to him".

Your interpretation is incredibly weak mechanically, even by WotC design standards.

[Segev]

If he has not taken a bloodline level by his 3rd character level. The bloodline level doesn't count as a character level except for some express purposes.

Incorrect. It does not raise character level in the same fashion as a normal class level. It is, however, still a character level. The ways in which it does not behave like a normal level are explicitly listed. "Does not increase your ECL" isn't one of them.

To accomplish the "offset" in XP you suggested would require an express statement in the rules. No such statement is present. Your interpretation still requires adding text; mine does not.

Don't you think the examples would be written differently if bloodline levels counted for bloodline traits? It doesn't say, "if the character takes a bloodline level as his 3rd level, he then gains the bloodline trait due to him" or "if the character doesn't take a bloodline level as his 3rd level, he does not gain the bloodline trait due to him".

Your interpretation is incredibly weak mechanically, even by WotC design standards.

Er...

No?

My interpretation is expressly what the rules say, relying on general rules where the specific ones are silent.

The example you quoted says that he only fails to get the bonus if he has not taken it by his third level. It doesn't say "as" his third level because he has the option of taking it earlier. He could have taken it as his second level. (He can't as his first because, with 0 HD, he'd be dead.) It is, in fact, possible for him to take a Bloodline level as his second, third, AND fourth level, and thus meet all requirements for having taken sufficient bloodline levels by the deadlines in his build.

That's why they're written as they are. It says "by" not "as," because it doesn't require him to wait. That's all. You're reading into it something that isn't there.

[Andorn]

My example is in fact not incorrect. At least in this example, since ECL levels 1-3 receive the same experience.

Doh! You are correct, sir. Yeah, that makes LA+1 a lot easier to bear. LA+3 is a different matter, though.

That's kinda weird, when you think about it. I mean, a level 3 character is a lot more capable than a level 1. In particular, more hit points, and much better spells and damage dealing. Plus, a level 3 is going to have much better gear than someone with base gold. They really ought to be treated differently.

[Andorn]

It seems that the most reasonable interpretation is that your experience progression is permanently off-set. I'd rather "pay" it just for ease of book-keeping. It doesn't contribute to ECL and you don't get a free level.

Exactly. As Andy Collins admitted, this stuff wasn't playtested. In his campaign, where this rule came from, everybody had bloodlines, and they were free. No XP costs, and no levels. He slapped a cost on them in order to stick them in the book, and didn't work through the mechanics.

Clearly, in his mind they aren't real levels. Otherwise, they'd have all the stuff you get with a real level, hit dice, BAB, saves, skill points, class ability advancements, more spells, yada yada yada. He has also stated that they don't count for your level-based feats and stat increases. His racial paragon levels give all that stuff.

The text says a static LA isn't right. And the text says (infamously, now):

"Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below)."

Some people insist this sentence means that they increase a character's character level anyway, just in some other fashion. Let's try on a couple other sentences:

"An ice cube doesn't increase the temperature of your food the way a normal stove does, but it does have certain effects."

Or something a little closer:

"A warming tray doesn't cook your food the way a normal stove does, but it does provide the benefit of keeping your food warm."

"The Arcane Thesis feat doesn't raise your character's character level the way a normal class level does, but it does provide certain benefits."

Clearly, just because there is a qualifier, it doesn't mean you must read extra stuff into the sentence. An ice cube doesn't increase the temperature of your food in some other fashion, a warming tray doesn't actually cook your food in some other fashion, and the Arcane Thesis feat doesn't raise your character level in some other fashion.

Bloodline "levels" don't provide ECL, the introduction rules out the intent of providing a static level increase. We are told specifically where to include benefits from bloodline levels: "calculating any character ability based on class levels" and as a class level for calculating maximum skill rank. That's clearly an error, because max skill ranks are calculated based on character level, not class level. Gee, I'm *shocked* to find another error here.

But that's it. It does not generally include abilities that are calculated based on character level, such as the number of essentia points you can put into an essentia feat or a soulmeld. Andy Collins has said they don't count for getting character level-based feats and stat points, either. FAQ from WotC has pointed out that sneak attack damage isn't actually a formula, so they don't increase things like that (which must include EB damage from Warlock).

The fact he gave them out in his campaign for free ought to be enough to tell us that he didn't view them as real character levels.

Of course, a DM is free to impose any penalty they want on their players. But having them count as a character level, when all you are getting is some minor power bumps, without the stuff that comes with a real level, goes against the wording, and the expressed intent of the designer.

[ComaVision]

Incorrect. It does not raise character level in the same fashion as a normal class level. It is, however, still a character level. The ways in which it does not behave like a normal level are explicitly listed. "Does not increase your ECL" isn't one of them.

To accomplish the "offset" in XP you suggested would require an express statement in the rules. No such statement is present. Your interpretation still requires adding text; mine does not.

Bold is your added text and is not said anywhere in the Bloodline section.

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

It doesn't say "not in the same fashion, is says you do not get a character level BUT you do get some benefits.

I don't think there's anything to be said that hasn't been said in the thread already though, so I'll refrain from further commentary.

[Segev]

Bold is your added text and is not said anywhere in the Bloodline section.

It doesn't need to be. It is the general rule. There is no specific text saying it does not add to your ECL, that your ECL remains the same as it was before you took it, nor to explain how to handle XP not changing despite you having not gained a level when taking a level.

It doesn't say "not in the same fashion, is says you do not get a character level BUT you do get some benefits.

That's not what it says. It says it doesn't raise it in the same way.

I don't think there's anything to be said that hasn't been said in the thread already though, so I'll refrain from further commentary.

Fair enough.



To the examples given a couple posts up, none of those actually make sense, because the language isn't used that way.

A warming tray isn't a stove, normal or otherwise. Arcane Thesis isn't a level; it's a feat. Saying "Apples don't give you vitamin C the way normal oranges do" is technically true, but carries an utterly false implication that Apples are Oranges, just abnormal ones.

The Bloodline Levels text says that they don't raise your level the way normal levels do, implying that they ARE levels, but that they don't do it quite the same way. (Hint: they're CALLED bloodline LEVELS. They're levels. They behave like levels except as noted. It says they don't give BAB, HD, saves, or skill points. IT does NOT say that they leave your ECL the same as it was before you took them. It even says you take them. Taking a level increases your ECL.)

[Andorn]

Also all your math ignored the rules for Starting a character with LA (the rules say that you start with 1k XP if you have +1 LA).

Where on earth does it say that???