General WoD Discussion #1: Assemble

[Fouredged Sword]

The whole spirit / ghost ridden thing kinda works with the rules from werewolf actualy.

There isn't a rule stateing that Spirits can't drain the essence of ghosts, and spirits become what they eat if they eat something they aren't supsed to eat. Then that spirit could ride any individual it wished, expecialy if they had some connection to him or her. they would have control over thier influences, like the death that they represent and be drawn to such things.

Such a being would be shuned by other spirits though, and werewolves would treat it as an abomination and a violation of the oath to the moon to let live (poor giest who thinks werewolves would be nice)

Just my two cents. I don't own giest, but the concept is neat.

[Fox Box Socks]

It's worth pointing out that one of the main reasons that Geists offer The Bargain is that sitting in the head of a willing human blunts a lot of effects that work specifically on ghosts/spirits. I'd say that a Mage would notice that Sin-Eater's aura is a little weird, and might be able to be trained to recognize them on sight based on aura alone, but they're going to have to put in a little more mojo to be able to sense who's got a Geist and who doesn't. Death3/Spirit3 seems more appropriate.

[Blackfang108]

The whole spirit / ghost ridden thing kinda works with the rules from werewolf actualy.

There isn't a rule stateing that Spirits can't drain the essence of ghosts, and spirits become what they eat if they eat something they aren't supsed to eat. Then that spirit could ride any individual it wished, expecialy if they had some connection to him or her. they would have control over thier influences, like the death that they represent and be drawn to such things.

Such a being would be shuned by other spirits though, and werewolves would treat it as an abomination and a violation of the oath to the moon to let live (poor giest who thinks werewolves would be nice)

Just my two cents. I don't own giest, but the concept is neat.

True. There is a special numen in one of the W:tF books that lets the spirit eat ghosts, but I don't recall which one offhand, and I'm AFB right now.

[CN the Logos]

The whole spirit / ghost ridden thing kinda works with the rules from werewolf actualy.

There isn't a rule stateing that Spirits can't drain the essence of ghosts, and spirits become what they eat if they eat something they aren't supsed to eat. Then that spirit could ride any individual it wished, expecialy if they had some connection to him or her. they would have control over thier influences, like the death that they represent and be drawn to such things.

Such a being would be shuned by other spirits though, and werewolves would treat it as an abomination and a violation of the oath to the moon to let live (poor giest who thinks werewolves would be nice)

Just my two cents. I don't own giest, but the concept is neat.

That's one of three possible origins for geists given in the Geist corebook, and the last one mentioned in the sidebar. The book actually seems to suggest more that it might be the other way around, and in the most explored option the process doesn't involve another spirit at all; instead a particularly desperate, powerful, and clever ghost starts replacing destroyed anchors with archetypal symbols that resonate with the way it died (this seems to be what the geist-in-progress in Book of the Dead is doing)The book says that the origins could be any or all of the above however, and it doesn't matter to sin-eaters much because most of them don't even know the Shadow exists.

I pity the fool werewolf pack that picks a fight with a krewe of experienced sin-eaters, though. I haven't read Werewolf, but apparently the power difference between Bound and the Uratha is pretty huge; the five dot version of Boneyard alone gives sin-eaters the ability to hit their foes from several miles away while hiding in a locked basement somewhere fairly safe from counterattacks. If the werewolves are lucky, the sin-eater is merciful and just uses a Passion Boneyard to prove that the pack is totally out of their league without killing them all outright. If the wolves are unlucky, it's a Pyre-Flame Boneyard and the fight is referred to by outside observers in years hence as "that year all those people spontaneously combusted."

That said, I'd still enjoy a Geist/Werewolf crossover. I think the idea has serious potential (darkly comic or serious).

[Wings of Peace]

That's one of three possible origins for geists given in the Geist corebook, and the last one mentioned in the sidebar. The book actually seems to suggest more that it might be the other way around, and in the most explored option the process doesn't involve another spirit at all; instead a particularly desperate, powerful, and clever ghost starts replacing destroyed anchors with archetypal symbols that resonate with the way it died (this seems to be what the geist-in-progress in Book of the Dead is doing)The book says that the origins could be any or all of the above however, and it doesn't matter to sin-eaters much because most of them don't even know the Shadow exists.

I pity the fool werewolf pack that picks a fight with a krewe of experienced sin-eaters, though. I haven't read Werewolf, but apparently the power difference between Bound and the Uratha is pretty huge; the five dot version of Boneyard alone gives sin-eaters the ability to hit their foes from several miles away while hiding in a locked basement somewhere fairly safe from counterattacks. If the werewolves are lucky, the sin-eater is merciful and just uses a Passion Boneyard to prove that the pack is totally out of their league without killing them all outright. If the wolves are unlucky, it's a Pyre-Flame Boneyard and the fight is referred to by outside observers in years hence as "that year all those people spontaneously combusted."

That said, I'd still enjoy a Geist/Werewolf crossover. I think the idea has serious potential (darkly comic or serious).

The power difference is fairly wide but with some optimization on the werewolves part it can be compensated for. If both parties are optimizing though then the Sin-Eater walking around with infinite plasm is going to win.

[Yuki Akuma]

That said, I'd still enjoy a Geist/Werewolf crossover. I think the idea has serious potential (darkly comic or serious).

That does sound neat. Someone should run it.

[Fouredged Sword]

Depends if giset powers reach into the gauntlet. If a werewolf walks away it will come back in a few hours with full health.

Enlist a bunch of spirits to run you around and make things hard on you... Hide in the shadow world... Wear you down with repeted skermishes...

Werewolves are very tough, and though they may not have the raw power of a giset they have a great base of inherent powers to build off of.

Also many werewolves are hard to find without potent sensory abilities. yes you can shoot a werewolf from across the city, but where is the werewolf, and even if you know where it is, it's hidden with werewolf gifts of stealth or hiden as a dog.

And when you do fire your gun the spirit of mechanical failure causes it to jam.

That and they can summon interogate a spirit of anything they want to know something about. Are you hideing? They summon a spirit of stealth and tell it to find you.

A werewolf pack is all about useing the spirit world to make things easier for them and harder for you.

[Yuki Akuma]

Yes, and Sin-Eaters can step into Twilight and smack spirits around when they try to harass them.

And I don't think a spirit of mechanical failure will work on an object enhanced with the Industrial Key.

Plus there's quite a few ways a Sin-Eater can detect a hidden werewolf... There's a very simple Ceremony for it, for instance, as well as the many and varied ways the Oracle Manifestation can sense things.

(Oh and Sin-Eaters can summon and interrogate ghosts, you know. And can create Fetters to use their powers. Sin-Eaters are basically like Werewolves, except with ghosts instead of spirits.)

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok, so it sounds like sin eaters are kina werewolf +'s with a dash of mages. good luck werewolves trying to beat that.

[Yuki Akuma]

Sin-Eaters are commonly called the second most powerful splat for a reason, yes.

Oh and to top it off, Sin-Eaters can't be knocked out and can auto-resurrect after being killed. Four or five times depending on their Synergy, but still.

[hiryuu]

Yes, and Sin-Eaters can step into Twilight and smack spirits around when they try to harass them.

Oh, I have a Sin-Eater in my game with Stigmata caul. It is glorious and horrifying.

And I don't think a spirit of mechanical failure will work on an object enhanced with the Industrial Key.

The way I ended up ruling it is that when you're enhancing an object with Industrial key (or any key or manifestation that infuses an object), you're possessing it. So if a werewolf tries to intimidate the object into doing what it wants, it's like saying "shoot yourself" or "don't shoot me" really loudly, and that has this habit of just annoying the person you're yelling at. I've used werewolves as antagonists before, mostly to illustrate that the PCs aren't the only fish in the pond.

Or, to put it another way, I found this in another forum some time ago, and it has relevance here:

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Speaking as the guy who laid down a lot of the background behind Gifts:

I love them. They're not pick-and-choose superpowers, they're things that spirits believe that you want or need. They're outright modifications to your soul, and there's no going back.

But there's something to remember: That's talking about the concept and nature of Gifts as a whole. Individual Gifts also come into things, and there's a different thematic layer that some people don't get when they read the Gift Lists.

Gifts are all about dominance.

You're a werewolf. You are the apex predator, nothing can beat you in physical power. And spirits give you powers that let you exert that natural authority over the world.

You can make a room warmer not out of the kindness of your heart, but because you're commanding the room to be warmer. You don't just "short out lights", you glare at them and the lights are scared poopless of you and wink out in fear. You don't psychically control technology, technology recognizes you as something higher up the food chain and bows down before you. You're such a consummate warrior that you can command armor from the spirits of the air and they give it to you.

Gifts are about your ultimate dominance over the world, given because you have proven yourself worthy of respect. Rites, by contrast, are highly formalized bargains that work on codified and enforced give-and-take between powerful spirits and werewolves. That's why you get Gifts with Renown, while any schmuck can learn plenty of rites.

Thus, when you're using an object enhanced with the Industrial key, the werewolf is trying to dominate you, and you're not exactly a spirit, so screw the hairy guy snarling. Bang.

Plus there's quite a few ways a Sin-Eater can detect a hidden werewolf... There's a very simple Ceremony for it, for instance, as well as the many and varied ways the Oracle Manifestation can sense things.

(Oh and Sin-Eaters can summon and interrogate ghosts, you know. And can create Fetters to use their powers. Sin-Eaters are basically like Werewolves, except with ghosts instead of spirits.)

True dat. There's no werewolves in my current campaign. At least, no Forsaken as they are in the book, so I've been thinking about playing up the mythic aspect more and making a custom key that deals a little bit with the spirit world.

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok, now I want to run or be in a nWoD game based around a sin-eater, spirit mage, and werewolf in a city with a very dangerous spirit/ghost envorment through the gauntlet.

One is a reincarnated cop, the other is a loose cannon, the other a mystic shaman. Together they fight crime... Spiritual crime.

[Yuki Akuma]

Resurrected, not reincarnated.

[hiryuu]

Ok, now I want to run or be in a nWoD game based around a sin-eater, spirit mage, and werewolf in a city with a very dangerous spirit/ghost envorment through the gauntlet.

One is a reincarnated cop, the other is a loose cannon, the other a mystic shaman. Together they fight crime... Spiritual crime.

This is awesome and you should be proud. I have half a mind to steal this idea and go buy the Dragnet soundtrack.

[Yuki Akuma]

This is awesome and you should be proud. I have half a mind to steal this idea and go buy the Dragnet soundtrack.

Run it on the forums.

I call the Sin-Eater.

[TheCountAlucard]

This disappoints me. Note the mention of a certain tabletop game...

[CN the Logos]

This disappoints me. Note the mention of a certain tabletop game...

Do you mean you're disappointed with psychotic idiots that share your hobbies attracting negative attention for everyone in them, or that you're disappointed the media thought bringing up the "RPGs are teh Satan" thing again was a good idea?

[TheCountAlucard]

Do you mean you're disappointed with psychotic idiots that share your hobbies attracting negative attention for everyone in them, or that you're disappointed the media thought bringing up the "RPGs are teh Satan" thing again was a good idea?

Both.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

I remember that Florida/V:tM fiasco. That was an interesting story; I need to see if I can find it again.

There is an actual psychological disorder that makes people think they're vampires, but that's not as much fun for the media as connecting this stuff to pop culture. Though I take offense to Twilight being included in this list. There are no vampires in Twilight, only sparkle fairies.

[CN the Logos]

I remember that Florida/V:tM fiasco. That was an interesting story; I need to see if I can find it again.

There is an actual psychological disorder that makes people think they're vampires, but that's not as much fun for the media as connecting this stuff to pop culture. Though I take offense to Twilight being included in this list. There are no vampires in Twilight, only sparkle fairies.

But, as the article suggested, it does offer a portrayal of vampires which includes most of the cool powers with none of the whole "monstrous dead-but-still-moving parasite" thing. Thus, it introduces a group that normally might not care about vampires at all to them, and the idea that being one might be "cool."

Ultimately however, I blame Anne Rice for the prevalence of the "vampires as angsty, tortured souls" portrayal, which ultimately led to Twilight's sparkle fairies. With very few exceptions, classical forklore portrays vampires as evil and probably insane. The moment they started being regularly portrayed as sympathetic, it was inevitable someone would eventually think "being one of these wouldn't be so bad" and from that point it's not all that far to "I'm going to remove the weaknesses from my vampires because those weaknesses don't fit with my fantasies about living forever as a badass with superpowers."

[TheCountAlucard]

On an unrelated note, I just spent the last five hours discussing Slashers with a friend.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

But, as the article suggested, it does offer a portrayal of vampires which includes most of the cool powers with none of the whole "monstrous dead-but-still-moving parasite" thing. Thus, it introduces a group that normally might not care about vampires at all to them, and the idea that being one might be "cool."

Ultimately however, I blame Anne Rice for the prevalence of the "vampires as angsty, tortured souls" portrayal, which ultimately led to Twilight's sparkle fairies. With very few exceptions, classical forklore portrays vampires as evil and probably insane. The moment they started being regularly portrayed as sympathetic, it was inevitable someone would eventually think "being one of these wouldn't be so bad" and from that point it's not all that far to "I'm going to remove the weaknesses from my vampires because those weaknesses don't fit with my fantasies about living forever as a badass with superpowers."

But that's the problem: Vampires are evil parasites. There's no way around it. Classic vampires kill and feed on humans. The modern angsty ones don't, they instead choose to feed on animals, and then wangst about how awful their eternal lives are, now that they have all of the amazing super powers. Twilight's the worst because, as you said, they don't have weaknesses, so the wangst is even more pointless and unsympathetic.

I don't know, I just have trouble looking at vampires as sympathetic characters unless the reason I'm supposed to be sympathizing with them is something other than the fact that they are a vampire.

On an unrelated note, I just spent the last five hours discussing Slashers with a friend.

Nice.

[TheCountAlucard]

Nice.

I ended up helping him work out a fun plot for a potential game...

Now he just needs to get a group.

[SurlySeraph]

On an unrelated note, I just spent the last five hours discussing Slashers with a friend.

It's a good book. I thought up one where the concept started as "Mute who kills vampires before a local Hunter cell can get to them, and leaves them cryptic poems written in blood on the walls hinting at where to find more targets," and evolved into "What if Emily Dickinson was seven feet tall and an axe murderer?"

[ToySoldierCPlus]

It's a good book. I thought up one where the concept started as "Mute who kills vampires before a local Hunter cell can get to them, and leaves them cryptic poems written in blood on the walls hinting at where to find more targets," and evolved into "What if Emily Dickinson was seven feet tall and an axe murderer?"

...
I love it! You must now run this game.

[CN the Logos]

But that's the problem: Vampires are evil parasites. There's no way around it. Classic vampires kill and feed on humans. The modern angsty ones don't, they instead choose to feed on animals, and then wangst about how awful their eternal lives are, now that they have all of the amazing super powers. Twilight's the worst because, as you said, they don't have weaknesses, so the wangst is even more pointless and unsympathetic.

I don't know, I just have trouble looking at vampires as sympathetic characters unless the reason I'm supposed to be sympathizing with them is something other than the fact that they are a vampire.

I didn't say it wasn't a problem. In fact I consider it a pretty major one from the perspective of vampires as antagonists; friendly neighborhood vampires aren't scary at all, and they actually offer their audience a glimpse of consequence-free immortality. One's left to wonder; why isn't everyone a vampire in these settings?

The Vampire games don't get a pass here. In fact, for all the angst about how horrible vampire society is, Requiem's got a power that pretty much reads "never have to hurt humans again." The only reason the Ordo Dracul doesn't teach that coil to everyone, have the vampiric government decree it law for new vampires to learn it, and then end the masquerade is that they're shortsighted *******s. (Also, from a metagame perspective, killing/mind-wiping/fleeing from people who know too much comprises a good chunk of the suggested plot hooks, and another good chunk is eating people without getting caught, so giving everyone the Coil of Blood leaves us with nothing but vampire politics.)

This is why I pretty much ignore all of Vampire's fluff and just treat it as a source of stats and powers for vampire antagonists. I get cool powers for my monsters and leave the undead angst in The Vampire Chronicles. However...

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I do have one occasionally recurring vampire NPC in my Geist game that has actually reached Golconda, just to screw with my players (who know I like to depict vampires as cannibalistic monsters who aren't interested in politics, or anything other than eating people, really). So far there's been one incident where a character offered him a cigarette and burning lighter in game, thinking out of game that this was possibly going to cause frenzy, and another incident where a character covered in blood was cleaning off in a bar's bathroom and encountered him, thinking he was about to be eaten. Both occasions were fairly tense. I was amused.

[Fox Box Socks]

I can't speak for Masquerade, but the entire point of Requiem was that Vampires are not supposed to be sympathetic characters and they are not supposed to adhere to human morality.

You're just not supposed to agree with that at first.

[Fouredged Sword]

I had a vampire game that the prince did STRONGLY encourage everyone to learn obfuscate 2 and at least the first coil of blood.

He was a humanity 2 monster though. He just saw it as the best way to prevent in fighting among the power groups. Supressing the taint in all the vampires goes a long way to makeing them all work together better. That and feading only every three days and on animals makes for a much more stable population that is much less dependant on risking exposure to eat.

didn't stop the vampires from feeding on people though. Part of the whole plot was "wakeup - you are a monster now. The human morality you cling to is a lie" Everything was about practicality and power.

I did have a vampire trying to reach golconda though. Mastering one of the alternate coils gets you very close. You just have to keep your humanity high.

[comicshorse]

The Vampire games don't get a pass here. In fact, for all the angst about how horrible vampire society is, Requiem's got a power that pretty much reads "never have to hurt humans again." The only reason the Ordo Dracul doesn't teach that coil to everyone, have the vampiric government decree it law for new vampires to learn it, and then end the masquerade is that they're shortsighted *******s. [/SPOILER]

The vast majority of Vampires (Blood Potency one and two) can feed from animals anyway.

[The Glyphstone]

The Vampire games don't get a pass here. In fact, for all the angst about how horrible vampire society is, Requiem's got a power that pretty much reads "never have to hurt humans again." The only reason the Ordo Dracul doesn't teach that coil to everyone, have the vampiric government decree it law for new vampires to learn it, and then end the masquerade is that they're shortsighted *******s.

Or cause, y'know, they're incredibly jealous of their secrets and don't actually give two pints about other non-Ordo vampires or mortals? Plus, there's no such thing as a 'vampire government'. Treating the WoD like a D&D setting that must inevitably end in Tippyverse will only lead to pain, as will any approach where you consider the rules to be in-game laws that the in-game population will exploit if at all possible.