What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

[JoseB]

Some people said the lack of phylactery in Jirix's crayon story is a hint of unreliability. (Compare: second and third panels.) I think that just means the crayon stories just don't show details the person telling the story chose to omit, but are otherwise almost exactly what happened.

First of all, it is not surprising that the panel doesn't show Jirix with the phylactery, because Jirix, at that point, was not carrying Xykon's phylactery ;) He carried his holy symbol.

But, in any case, in the second strip linked to (#704), the crayon drawing that shows Jirix being killed by O-chul *shows* Jirix wearing his holy symbol. It is hard to see, because the symbol itself is hidden by the iron bar that O-chul is wielding. If you look carefully you can see the string or chain that holds the symbol hanging from Jirix's neck --it is just that, in that panel, its colour is very similar to the background of Jirix's vest.

So, that particular argument, using these two strips, is not relevant.

[Kish]

Soon accurately reported what he believed to be true.
[...]
The crayon strips are therefore the inaccurate memories of someone who does not fully understand the situation.

Soon didn't narrate one of the crayon strips.

Shojo, who lied habitually and casually, did.

[Tebryn]

No one else noticed that the throne doesn't have the sapphire in it in the crayon picture? It's the Sapphire. I think that's pretty clear.

[Cizak]

First of all, it is not surprising that the panel doesn't show Jirix with the phylactery, because Jirix, at that point, was not carrying Xykon's phylactery ;) He carried his holy symbol.

But, in any case, in the second strip linked to (#704), the crayon drawing that shows Jirix being killed by O-chul *shows* Jirix wearing his holy symbol. It is hard to see, because the symbol itself is hidden by the iron bar that O-chul is wielding. If you look carefully you can see the string or chain that holds the symbol hanging from Jirix's neck --it is just that, in that panel, its colour is very similar to the background of Jirix's vest.

So, that particular argument, using these two strips, is not relevant.

What are you talking about? We're talking about the fact that the phylactery O-chul dropped cannot be seen in the second comic linked.

[Sarco_Phage]

No one else noticed that the throne doesn't have the sapphire in it in the crayon picture? It's the Sapphire. I think that's pretty clear.

Yes. What we're arguing about is whether or not it's THE Sapphire, and if it is, how this contradicts parts of the story, since it's been stated that the seal can't exactly be moved.

[zimmerwald1915]

Has the possibility been explored that the Gate was not the Sapphire itself, but rather that it originally looked like Lirian's and Dorukan's Gates (a, in this case tiny, pink wall buttressed by stone edges? Lirian's Gate looked like that and was floating in midair) and that the Sapphire was just placed in front? Hinjo says that the Gate is the Sapphire itself, but he's a Paladin told about the Galte's construction many years after the fact, not an epic spellcaster who should be expected to know about Gate construction.

[Tebryn]

Yes. What we're arguing about is whether or not it's THE Sapphire, and if it is, how this contradicts parts of the story, since it's been stated that the seal can't exactly be moved.

Why wouldn't it be -the- Sapphire? I'm more confused why we're even discussing it when it's so plain to see. Why would they rotate Sapphires out of the throne of the Lord of Azure City?

[Sarco_Phage]

Why wouldn't it be -the- Sapphire? I'm more confused why we're even discussing it when it's so plain to see. Why would they rotate Sapphires out of the throne of the Lord of Azure City?

Because if the seal is the Sapphire, then there's some incongruity with when the seal was created.

[Cizak]

Why wouldn't it be -the- Sapphire? I'm more confused why we're even discussing it when it's so plain to see. Why would they rotate Sapphires out of the throne of the Lord of Azure City?

Because it has been established that the gate cannot be moved, and the sapphire is the gate. That's the whole reason this is all pretty confusing.

[Tebryn]

I doubt there is. The rift in Azure City is in the sky, we know that. Perhaps the gate was sealed with a rune like the others we've seen and the rune was replaced by the Sapphire via some other spell. We don't know. But Occam's Razor is applicable here. The solution with the least assumptions is probably the right one. There's no reason for it -not- to be -THE- Sapphire. It's the bloody Sapphire.

Edit: I am also fairly certain that in SoD Redcloak mentions being able to actually move the gates.

[Quild]

A "big" rift has been sealed in a "tiny" sapphire, which is held "quite far" from the original emplacement of the rift.

Maybe the sapphire can't be moved more than a few dozens feet away.

It's like my house's phone. I can't use it outside my house, but I can move inside the house while answering a call.

[Tebryn]

It's also called the Sapphire Guard. Not the Guardians of the Rift or the Topaz Templar or the Cat's Eye Crusaders. They're protecting the object that seals the rift. The Sapphire. The Sapphire which was in the throne, but isn't in the picture. To claim it's not the same sapphire would require a good deal of evidence. Claiming it is the sapphire does not, the evidence is in the drawing. It was intentionally not drawn into the picture. Sure a cigar is a cigar but I think Rich is pretty clear that the Sapphire in the drawing is the same one on the throne. Meaning that it's the seal for the rift. How that works...I dunno.

[Cizak]

I doubt there is. The rift in Azure City is in the sky, we know that. Perhaps the gate was sealed with a rune like the others we've seen and the rune was replaced by the Sapphire via some other spell. We don't know. But Occam's Razor is applicable here. The solution with the least assumptions is probably the right one. There's no reason for it -not- to be -THE- Sapphire. It's the bloody Sapphire.

Edit: I am also fairly certain that in SoD Redcloak mentions being able to actually move the gates.

What other rifts were sealed with a rune?

The reason for it not to be -the- sapphire is the fact that the gate cannot be moved.

The part with RC you mention is with the ritual. I dount Soon knew about the ritual.

[Tebryn]

What other rifts were sealed with a rune?

None of them were sealed by runes, but I do believe at the very least the Elven Lands Gate and the Red Mountains Gate had runes on the gates themselves. Again, I could be remembering incorrectly and only the RM one did. We've actually yet to see two of the others.

The reason for it not to be -the- sapphire is the fact that the gate cannot be moved.

False.

The part with RC you mention is with the ritual. I dount Soon knew about the ritual.

By your own post. The Gates -can- be moved.

Once again, Occam's Razor. The answer with the least assumptions is more than likely the correct one. The Sapphire he's being handed is the sapphire that held the gate. Once again, how is it possible? No idea, barring the Giant coming in and explaining himself which I doubt quite highly will happen there is little reason to assume otherwise.

I think it's the sapphire which would eventually become Soon's Gate. The rift is floating the sky, and then (minor War and XPs spoiler)

Spoiler

Show

Lord Ronjo built a new tower to reach the rift.

And then Lirian and Dorukan perform the ritual in the new throne room and never see Soon again (unless Soon is already dead by that point).

I think.

There's also that bit of information or to really add to it. If it -isn't- the Sapphire then it's just some random sapphire with no baring on the story and there's really no need to discuss it is there?

[Sarco_Phage]

False.

... but it's stated that they can't.

[Tebryn]

... but it's stated that they can't.

But it's shown that there is a way around it. So...what exactly is your point? Just because someone said they couldn't means they can't even though on of the main villains has a ritual that will let it be moved around? I actually forget who said they couldn't be moved, if you could refresh my memory. Red Cloak says he can move them via a spell the Dark One gave him. So either the person who said it can't be moved is incorrect or Red Cloak is.

[Quild]

I thought that Redcloak's spell was supposed to allow him to control the Snarl. Not to move the gate (but to move the gate is a part of the plan).

[Tebryn]

I thought that Redcloak's spell was supposed to allow him to control the Snarl. Not to move the gate (but to move the gate is a part of the plan).

Red Cloak actually states that the Snarl is uncontrollable and that the spell only lets them move the portal where ever they wish.

[Quild]

Can't check my "Start of Darkness" right now, but I trust you on this.
Still, that doesn't mean gates can't be moved AT ALL.

Sounds fair to me that the seals have to stay close from the rift they seals. Redcloak's spell may allow to move a rift.
I remember that Lirian's Gate was broken easily when the trees moved, but it was a much larger rift, and the "structure" of the seal broke off. So this could be compared by the sapphire being broken by Miko.

If the seals couldn't move at all, this rift should have been sealed in the sky, right?

[Tebryn]

Can't check my "Start of Darkness" right now, but I trust you on this.

I'm fairly certain that's what he said. I don't have the book at hand at the moment either.

Still, that doesn't mean gates can't be moved AT ALL.

That's what I'm stating in the first place. Well, more to the point I'm saying that there's no real reason other than baseless assumption that it isn't what it looks like.

[legomaster00156]

Aren't the crayon drawings not necessarily depictions of the actual events?

Shojo saw that event himself, so I think it's pretty reliable.

[Joerg]

Let's summarize a bit:

• The rift is in the sky now. It was in the throne room earlier, which was in an upper level of the palace, which exploded when the Gate was destroyed.
• Hinjo says here that the throne and the palace have been constructed around the Gate, which was the Sapphire. The rift has never moved, and the Sapphire was always where the rift was.
• You need a ritual to be able to move the rift (if that is possible at all)
• There's no indication that a Gate could be away from the rift it seals

So what does that leave us with?

• Hinjo lied or was misinformed about the Sapphire; and either the Gate can also be away from the rift, or the rift can be moved without the ritual.
• Shojo misremembered or told the story inaccurately.
• The drawing is not actually what Shojo narrates, but what the listeners imagine from the narration.
• The sapphire in the drawing is not the one that seals the rift.
• The author made a mistake in the drawing.

Use your own judgement about what you think more likely or where you think more assumptions have to be made.

[Tebryn]

The rift is in the sky now. It was in the throne room earlier, which was in an upper level of the palace, which exploded when the Gate was destroyed.

The rift was always in the sky.

Also note that Hinjo didn't say the gate -COULDN'T- be moved. Just that it was to risky. Big difference.

[Holy_Knight]

The rift was always in the sky.

Also note that Hinjo didn't say the gate -COULDN'T- be moved. Just that it was to risky. Big difference.

Not really. If it's too risky to move the gate, then it makes it all the more unlikely that Soon would have done so--but that is what would have to have happened if he kept the sapphire somewhere else and only later attached it to the throne. On the other hand, if Hinjo is misinformed about that point, it raises the possibility that the gates theoretically could be moved without using the ritual (and that other things we think we know about the gates may not be right).

On that note...

But it's shown that there is a way around it. So...what exactly is your point? Just because someone said they couldn't means they can't even though on of the main villains has a ritual that will let it be moved around? I actually forget who said they couldn't be moved, if you could refresh my memory. Red Cloak says he can move them via a spell the Dark One gave him. So either the person who said it can't be moved is incorrect or Red Cloak is.

...I really don't know why you're equating these two things when they're clearly not the same. Saying "we can't physically move the sapphire because it might break the seal on the rift" is not contradicted by "a magical ritual can allow us to move the rift around", whether or not the first statement is actually true.

[Whiffet]

• The drawing is not actually what Shojo narrates, but what the listeners imagine from the narration.
• The sapphire in the drawing is not the one that seals the rift.
• The author made a mistake in the drawing.

I think these are the best explanations for this issue. Who knows, maybe at that point it hadn't been decided that the rift was right there yet.

[137beth]

I think the most likely scenario is that it is a sapphire, but not the same one in the throne. It is a symbol of leadership of the SAPPHIRE guard. Most other theories tossed around here just seem overly complicated (except for "the author hadn't decided the gate couldn't move", which I find unlikely).

[Ron Miel]

Soon didn't narrate one of the crayon strips.

Shojo, who lied habitually and casually, did.

Shojo repeated the Lore of the Sapphire Guard, which came from Soon. He was surrounded at the time by members of the guard, who would have noticed if he misrepresented the Lore. Plujshe wanted to get Roy on his side, so he told him the facts, as he understood them. I consider it unlikely that Shojo was deliberately lying, but highly probable that he was mistaken about a number of things.

[Cizak]

But it's shown that there is a way around it. So...what exactly is your point? Just because someone said they couldn't means they can't even though on of the main villains has a ritual that will let it be moved around? I actually forget who said they couldn't be moved, if you could refresh my memory. Red Cloak says he can move them via a spell the Dark One gave him. So either the person who said it can't be moved is incorrect or Red Cloak is.

But only the high priest of the Dark One (and Xykon) knows this very complex ritual that allows them to move it. Nobody else (as far as we know) can move the gate, which makes hit impossible for the thing Soon holds to be -the- sapphire, since -the- sapphire IS the gate.

[WickedWizard17]

I think it WAS the sapphire and the rift. But I don't think it was moved around - I think Soon stuck around in Azure City holding onto it. Might have even lived in the castle, because he had such a high ranking.

[Cizak]

I think it WAS the sapphire and the rift. But I don't think it was moved around - I think Soon stuck around in Azure City holding onto it. Might have even lived in the castle, because he had such a high ranking.

What? He's clearly handing it over to Shojo's father.