[Exalted] I Just Don't Get It

[SaurOps]

Given that one of my major gripes with Exalted 2e is just how exhaustively it tends spell things out, I find this assertion hilarious. Seriously, I have book after book after book that is just filled to the brim with Exalted fluff- from characters who you'll likely never see in any given game, to specific rites and organizations and towns and everything.

I have yet to see any D&D setting that remotely comes close to what Exalted does. From what I've seen of Eberron and Forgotten Realms, they tend to give broad overviews and allow the players more free reign in the details- Exalted gives you every detail except for in a few spots.

I heartily wish that Exalted would leave more to interpretation and be a bit more vague about things, just so I wouldn't have to memorize every piece of the setting on the off chance that someone else remembers it and brandishes it at me and asks "where is this?!" Recently I've just taken to saying "Any changes from the canon setting are deliberate."

That's a failing of second edition. It wasn't the order of the day in first edition, and since 3e is cutting back to those days, it's really not a serious concern for the future.

[Andreaz]

Exalted meanwhile, while it is more detailed, it only covers the certain places and is downright confusing about explaining the setting. look at how many people come up with completely different views on the same place. this is not a sign of healthy setting explanation.

That does mean reality is terribly written for you. It kinda makes sense, but it's not a problem unless you want it to be a problem.

[Lord Raziere]

I have to disagree. The fact that an explanation about a place gives birth to a thousand possible interpretations of this place is a good thing. It allows for creativity, gives the ST plenty of wiggle room to adapt said place to her campaign's best interests, and generally enhances imagination.

Or at least that's how I see it. The problem obviously comes when one looks for One True Answer where there probably is none on purpose.

No, the thousand possible interpretations lead to people fighting over said interpretations. eventually they all go around and start saying theirs is the one true way, then they will fight over it ceaselessly, until a dominant one emerges while all the others are relegated to a minority who are outcasted because of their divergent interpretation from the norm.

controversy is what leads to one true wayism, because controversies cause conflict, and because in all conflicts people try to decide a winner, they will always eventually lead to one true way-ism.

no conflict, no one can debate what it is or isn't, and people can freely creatively expand upon something in peace without conflict.

[TheCountAlucard]

I don't recall creatively expanding on the Vodak; I don't recall creatively expanding on the Radiolari, nor on the Titan-Class Aerial Citadel that Mount Metagalapa used to be. See, those things are already detailed. Perhaps exhaustively so, because very little runs through my mind when I think of those things, save, "Hm, how is (X Character) going to react to that?"

You know what I did creatively expand on?

Blank spaces.

"This looks like the perfect place to put my city of Dragon Kings!"

"This stretch of desert looks like a nifty place for the cult's headquarters!"

"Only nine Deathlords have been defined out of thirteen? That's great, there's room for this guy!"

Blank spaces in certain Yozis' soul hierarchies even made it easy-peasy for me to squeeze in a couple fun Second Circle Demons.

[The_Snark]

@Raziere: the quality you are describing is one that the real world possesses in spades. It's ambiguous. Yes, that makes for arguments and differences of opinion, but it also lends the setting a sense of realism that many people enjoy. Underneath the gods and superpowers and flying mountains, it feels like a real place.

I don't blame you if you find some of the arguing tiresome; so do I. But that's a side effect, and nobody is making us participate. You may find the Litany Against Internet Argument to be of some help!

I must not argue on the Internet.
Internet argument is the mind-killer.
It is the little death that brings total aggravation.
I will face my annoyance.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
When it has gone past I will turn my inner eye to see its path.
Where the irritation has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

(credit and apologies to Frank Herbert and Dune)

[Lord Raziere]

@ Alucard: yea well….

"I have no idea what to do with this empty stretch of desert"

"I don't know what other Deathlords I could put there."

"I don't what kind of demon to put there."

I mean I prefer using everything thats already there and figuring how they would all interact at the same time in the most logical manner possible. I don't know what to do the blank spaces. am I supposed to arbitrarily fill them in for no reason? and even then, how am I supposed to know if its something appropriate to put in? what are the right stuff to put in, what is the right way to fill in the blank?

[TheCountAlucard]

I mean I prefer using everything thats already there and figuring how they would all interact at the same time in the most logical manner possible. I don't know what to do the blank spaces. am I supposed to arbitrarily fill them in for no reason? and even then, how am I supposed to know if its something appropriate to put in? what are the right stuff to put in, what is the right way to fill in the blank?

See, the beauty of a blank is that you don't even have to fill it in right away. You've got time to think about it, and say, "What WOULD be good?"

If you have trouble directly coming up with ideas (and I admit, this happens to me embarrassingly often), it can be great fun to hash ideas out with other people as well! Like in my Deathlord example, one idea we'd had was him hiding some of his powers away in artifacts! It's an interesting idea, because it lets him loan out his powers, but also presents the very real risk of being caught without them!

But even if you can think of NOTHING to put in a blank space… you can just leave it blank. No one's gonna fault you for saying, "It's just a really dangerous patch of desert." No Exalted player's gonna foam at the mouth at you for only using the nine default Deathlords. And maybe the PCs climb that craggy rock formation just to find a frigid mountaintop; that just gives the players a new locale for their PCs to make a base.

Because players can fill in blank spots, too.

[Ifni]

@Raziere: the quality you are describing is one that the real world possesses in spades. It's ambiguous. Yes, that makes for arguments and differences of opinion, but it also lends the setting a sense of realism that many people enjoy. Underneath the gods and superpowers and flying mountains, it feels like a real place.

I don't blame you if you find some of the arguing tiresome; so do I. But that's a side effect, and nobody is making us participate. You may find the Litany Against Internet Argument to be of some help!

... The_Snark, is the modified version yours, and if so may I sig it?

(I particularly like: "It is the little death that brings total aggravation.")

[Andreaz]

See, the beauty of a blank is that you don't even have to fill it in right away. You've got time to think about it, and say, "What WOULD be good?"

And you don't HAVE to either. It's just blank space. Travel Time, Training Time.

[Mewtarthio]

I mean I prefer using everything thats already there and figuring how they would all interact at the same time in the most logical manner possible. I don't know what to do the blank spaces. am I supposed to arbitrarily fill them in for no reason? and even then, how am I supposed to know if its something appropriate to put in? what are the right stuff to put in, what is the right way to fill in the blank?

The blank spaces are there so that you can fill them in if you want to. If you just want your players to fight a deathlord, you can flip through the nine in Abyssals and pick one that works. The four undefined deathlords exist so that you can fill them in when you want something different. If you want your players to fight a deathlord but don't think any of the nine fit the story, you can just put them up against the tenth deathlord. If one of your players is a deathknight of the Silver Prince and you want to throw in a rival deathlord who is a pirate king, you can do that. If you want your deathlord to be a mysterious entity that the players know nothing about, canon's got four of them for you to choose from.

[Cadwyn]

@ Alucard: yea well….

"I have no idea what to do with this empty stretch of desert"

"I don't know what other Deathlords I could put there."

"I don't what kind of demon to put there."

I mean I prefer using everything thats already there and figuring how they would all interact at the same time in the most logical manner possible. I don't know what to do the blank spaces. am I supposed to arbitrarily fill them in for no reason? and even then, how am I supposed to know if its something appropriate to put in? what are the right stuff to put in, what is the right way to fill in the blank?

This is actually a very good point, and a challenge that many STs and players might face when adding their own details.

Best thing I can think to illustrate it would be to reference a mini-campaign I'm running for a new Exalted player (who also happens to be my Pathfinder DM). After a quick rundown of the setting, he decided he wanted to play a Conan-inspired philosopher barbarian set in the desert. I gave a rundown of the South and he found the hierarchical lifestyle and the Creation-wide slave trade to be a good antagonist point for his character, that he would oppose all of that and seek to end Tyranny throughout the South. This was a great opportunity for me to use the Guild, my single favorite element of 2e, and possibly Exalted as a whole.

So where to have it take place? I looked at possibilities, and found out that between the Lap and Gem there's a trade route called the Diamond Road. Literally that's it. I don't own the South Compass book so for all I know it's detailed there, but just knowing it exists was good enough for my campaign. Now I looked at the area on the map:

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The only major areas are the Lap and Paragon, but I wanted to focus on the road, and the commerce and civilization that springs up around it. So I worked out a map filling in some areas. It just so happens that area of Creation bares a striking resemblance to Tunisia and Algeria. So I started making dots and filling in names on a google maps screenshot:

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Aside from the Lap, Oasis, and Pit of Sighs, all that is made up. Delgazho is a Dubai-esque resort city, Patchouli is a Realm-controlled oasis plantation built over a First Age water elemental shrine, and Beja is a Guild-run trading post city that serves as a station for caravans journeying into the deep South, providing the lifeblood of Gem. The Dhangar Plains are haunted by the Fair Folk, while nomad tribes eek out a living that would impress the most survivalist Lunars.

Now, none of this is publishing-worthy in my opinion, but it does illustrate at least one way to fill in the map. Everything there is inspired by a reference to the Diamond Road, and what I know of the Guild from Masters of Jade. That's all that's needed to give that character a foundation. If anything it's a bit excessive, as we're currently focused on Beja and yet to travel elsewhere.

I guess it's something of an art rather than exact science. I just read a bunch of wiki entries, and made places up based on the features on the real world map. The key was that it fit the campaign we wanted to run.

[The_Snark]

... The_Snark, is the modified version yours, and if so may I sig it?

It is, and you're welcome to.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'm reading this as "I don't like eastern or Asian-inspired things."

Now, I don't like coleslaw, but that's not because I don't 'get' it. I'm not missing some secret key or slaw-eating technique that will suddenly cause me to enjoy it. I just happen to not like coleslaw.

I don't think there's any secret that will make you 'get' Exalted. You don't like it. That's not likely to change. Best to move on and not dwell on it.

Doesn't that make me racist then? Because I don't like something just because of the cultural background it came from?

And even if I'm not racist, it still means I'm a bad gamer. A good gamer should be able to take any setting he or she is given and have fun playing in it. The funnest D&D campaign I ever played in was one where the DM took every fantasy expectation and then threw us all for a loop. We weren't in some fantasy world. We were in a post-apocalyptic Europe after a second Ice Age and robot revolution had reduced mankind to a medieval level of technology. Magic was due to nanotechnology developed centuries ago, the races like elves and dwarves were the result of genetic modification to humans before the apocalypse, and the gods were nano-tech empowered survivors of the apocalypse, the top scientists, their associates and staff.

I didn't care that the DM had basically taken every expectation I had and threw it out the window. I had fun. If I can live with that, then why does Exalted bug me so much?

[Tavar]

Doesn't that make me racist then? Because I don't like something just because of the cultural background it came from?

And even if I'm not racist, it still means I'm a bad gamer. A good gamer should be able to take any setting he or she is given and have fun playing in it. The funnest D&D campaign I ever played in was one where the DM took every fantasy expectation and then threw us all for a loop. We weren't in some fantasy world. We were in a post-apocalyptic Europe after a second Ice Age and robot revolution had reduced mankind to a medieval level of technology. Magic was due to nanotechnology developed centuries ago, the races like elves and dwarves were the result of genetic modification to humans before the apocalypse, and the gods were nano-tech empowered survivors of the apocalypse, the top scientists, their associates and staff.

I didn't care that the DM had basically taken every expectation I had and threw it out the window. I had fun. If I can live with that, then why does Exalted bug me so much?

Because you were able to play in a fantasy Britain analogue culturally? That seems to be your major requirement to play.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

There was no real fantasy Britain analogue. The DM had my paladin born in the fantasy Austria analogue and raised by dwarves...Britain's landmass was ruled by the fantasy France analogue.

And Mass Effect isn't a fantasy Britain analogue and I like that. Scion's made by the same company as Exalted and even is almost functionally identical. And I bought all the books for that game.

[HerrTenko]

Doesn't that make me racist then? Because I don't like something just because of the cultural background it came from?

And even if I'm not racist, it still means I'm a bad gamer. A good gamer should be able to take any setting he or she is given and have fun playing in it. The funnest D&D campaign I ever played in was one where the DM took every fantasy expectation and then threw us all for a loop. We weren't in some fantasy world. We were in a post-apocalyptic Europe after a second Ice Age and robot revolution had reduced mankind to a medieval level of technology. Magic was due to nanotechnology developed centuries ago, the races like elves and dwarves were the result of genetic modification to humans before the apocalypse, and the gods were nano-tech empowered survivors of the apocalypse, the top scientists, their associates and staff.

I didn't care that the DM had basically taken every expectation I had and threw it out the window. I had fun. If I can live with that, then why does Exalted bug me so much?

I think there is no need for an explanation of this appart from "you just don't like it". Not liking a particular esthetic or setting isn't being racist or a bad player. It just means you have tastes and said settings or things don't fit your tastes. You shouldn't worry about being a "bad gamer" just because you don't like it, and people saying you are are probably nothing but snoby arses! If anything, the mere fact that you are trying to understand what bothers you with something to articulate a more constructive judgement than "I don't like it" is proof that you are an open minded, curious guy, and that makes good players more often than not.

So really, it's okay if you don't like it. The mere fact that you are actually trying to like it is great though, and hopefully this thread might at least help you shed a new light on Exalted. Sometimes it's all it takes!

[Archpaladin Zousha]

There HAS been quite a lot of inspiring stuff said here (lookin' at you, Lord Raziere, that Grail Knight Solar idea was brilliant). I suppose I should buy a book or two before judging it? Almost all I know about Exalted HAS come secondhand from other people.

[SaurOps]

It occurs to me that there is a widespread tradition of knights serving lords in Exalted, but they may not be what you consider holy paladins. In fact, they are, one and all, quite vulnerable to Holy. But they do engage in European feudal pageantry that sometimes is said to clash with the rest of the setting, if that's a really big draw.

[TheCountAlucard]

SaurOps, are you talking Fair Folk, or demons?

Because Fair Folk aren't under the purview of Holy…

[Plague of Hats]

SaurOps, are you talking Fair Folk, or demons?

Because Fair Folk aren't under the purview of Holy…

I believe he's talking about the Abyssal Exalted.

[meschlum]

SaurOps, are you talking Fair Folk, or demons?

Because Fair Folk aren't under the purview of Holy…

That can be arranged.

Oath of Eternal Service

There are those, in Creation and beyond, for whom duty is a matter that should transcend mere dissolution of the soul and body. While the workings of Chaos are often too unreliable for practical use, the legend of the Oath comes from the borderlands of Creation, and it is quite powerful.

Taking the shape of an ordinary carpenter's cup, discarded when it was no longer useful, the Oath can be used to sanctify any ceremony of vassalage. Once completed, the newly elevated knight becomes a far more skilled and capable servant, so long as he remains true. Since death might interfere with the completion of the Oath, he takes on a part of its nature within himself, becoming regrettably vulnerable to the evil magics of the Anathema, but gaining a stronger connection to all those who have died for duty before him.

Mechanics
1-dot Adjuration
Assumption of Cerements and Bone - those swearing the Oath now count as Ceratures of Death, making them vulnerable to Holy effects, most likely.
Assumption of Dreams and Passion - the Oath enhances anything done in the name of Duty.

It's possible to get way more excessive power-wise, but that's not the point.

[Lord Raziere]

There HAS been quite a lot of inspiring stuff said here (lookin' at you, Lord Raziere, that Grail Knight Solar idea was brilliant). I suppose I should buy a book or two before judging it? Almost all I know about Exalted HAS come secondhand from other people.

ok 1: that was the first coherent Solar idea I ever came up with? at least, one that actually feels workable…. I have all the books, I just only ever played one incomplete game….a Sidereal one heh….if anything I have you to thank, Solars are the hardest splat for me to think about. mostly cause they are the Golden Blank Space Exalted.

and yea….secondhand knowledge of Exalted….is….not reliable.

however….Exalted is currently going through rough time, people are eagerly anticipating 3rd edition to come out….any month now. people just generally regard 2nd edition as bad except for a few good books….

and well I'm too tired for book recommendations. except for this: don't get scroll of monk. never. ever. EVER. get scroll of the monk. or Lunars. just don't.
save yourself the money. maybe get something like that Prototype video game, much more accurate depiction of Lunars in Prototype.

[TheCountAlucard]

I believe he's talking about the Abyssal Exalted.

Whoops, hadn't considered that.

Also, thanks as usual, meschlum.

[Bahumat]

There's also a fun book they released called Shards of the Exalted Dream, specifically designed for doing settings that aren't the default (like, the real world.).

There HAS been quite a lot of inspiring stuff said here (lookin' at you, Lord Raziere, that Grail Knight Solar idea was brilliant). I suppose I should buy a book or two before judging it? Almost all I know about Exalted HAS come secondhand from other people.

Grabbing a couple of splats might help with your understanding of the setting and system. There's a couple of good fanfictions (Yes, I said it!) floating around the web involving exalted crossovers as well. Gregg Landsman's doing a magnificent Mass Effect/Exalted at the moment in terms of the accuracy of how heroism and use of charms works, and a couple of others based of various anime work as well.

In terms of what books....it depends on your taste. You want to play reasonably low power, with a bit more restrictive themes? Grab the Dragon-blooded book, they're actually fun, not drastically above any experience with other systems (like dnd) and have easy plot hooks to work with. Want to be a glorious rockstar of Hell, doing basically whatever you want within reason, and having fun themes to build a character around? The Infernal exalts are great for that, and you can easily build a fun character within a theme (for example, I have built Asura from Asura's Wrath and a Pierce Brosnan inspired James Bond look-alike).

Solars are the core book, you'll want that anyway, but they have some interesting themes as well. Our group has a theme of stealing ideas from mythology (kinda what you might do in Scion) and porting them over, resulting in a Gilgamesh running amuk as his Elder Lunar mate tries to rein him in.

But yeah, if the default setting for exalted bugs you, throw it out, and use Shards of the Exalted Dream to build a less Eastern inspired world. Go blow up stuff in star wars inspired dogfights around your personal Death Star. Attempt to collapse the world economy (or stop some other ass doing it) in the modern world. Go have a kickass martial art tournament where you can unleash your inner wuxia and punch people into space.

Exalted makes the world your oyster. Throw out what you don't want, and have fun with it. As you've seen through the thread, there's millions of complaints about the setting, so if you don't like something, make it better! Noone can stop you!

For You Are The Chosen!

[Andreaz]

You want to play reasonably low power, with a bit more restrictive themes? Grab the Dragon-blooded book, they're actually fun, not drastically above any experience with other systems (like dnd) and have easy plot hooks to work with.

I must add that "reasonably low power" still means an exalted. Dragon-bloods can solo armies, and about half of that is just the fact they fight while on fire(or water, ice, lightning, poison sweat, flying sharp rocks, razor wind, lashing thorns...). They can burn your flesh off with a shout, don't have to eat, sleep or breathe to chase you dead and even the worse DB is trained enough to outfight a navy seal and outwit a diplomat before using any magic. The Houses have a notably high death rate during childhood for a reason.

[Asmodai]

Zousha you mentioned that the only experience with Exalted you did have was actually the Modern Shard, right? That one is so much intertwined with the fact that it's built up as a big nod and development of the Exalted setting that it's a horrible thing to force upon someone with zero experience. You really should try the basic Exalted setting first, you'll find it easier to digest then a shard.

[Mewtarthio]

I believe he said he'd only played Gunstar Autocthonia. You know, the shard that's basically Gurren Lagann meets Battlestar Galactus.

[SaurOps]

ok 1: that was the first coherent Solar idea I ever came up with? at least, one that actually feels workable…. I have all the books, I just only ever played one incomplete game….a Sidereal one heh….if anything I have you to thank, Solars are the hardest splat for me to think about. mostly cause they are the Golden Blank Space Exalted.

and yea….secondhand knowledge of Exalted….is….not reliable.

however….Exalted is currently going through rough time, people are eagerly anticipating 3rd edition to come out….any month now. people just generally regard 2nd edition as bad except for a few good books….

and well I'm too tired for book recommendations. except for this: don't get scroll of monk. never. ever. EVER. get scroll of the monk. or Lunars. just don't.
save yourself the money. maybe get something like that Prototype video game, much more accurate depiction of Lunars in Prototype.

I have a feeling that this statement is, at best, misleading.

[Asmodai]

I believe he said he'd only played Gunstar Autocthonia. You know, the shard that's basically Gurren Lagann meets Battlestar Galactus.

I misremembered, and couldn't find it when i scrolled up. But yeah, that's even WORSE for the uninitiated :P

[Lord Raziere]

I have a feeling that this statement is, at best, misleading.

ok, I was joking with the Prototype thing.

but still. Lunars aren't really a good splat at all. nothing is changed when you remove them, and you gain nothing when they are put in. wait for 3rd edition to get Lunars. because their current depiction is stupid, their 1st edition depiction was stupider, and we are hoping that 3rd edition depiction won't be stupid at all.