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2012-09-07, 08:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games
It's worth remembering that apparently hunger games was released in 2008.
The Battle Royal Film was released in 2000ish, and was a big enough deal to be released in 22 countries. It was reasonably well known at the time over here, I have no reason to believe the same wasn't true in america and it was apparently received pretty well by critics.
The manga in comparison is later, and I'd say probably a little more genuinely obscure, but the film was a pretty big thing.
Also, I'm hazy on this particular myth, but isn't the whole Theseus/Minotaur thing much more about just Theseus dealing with the minotaur, rather than a number of competing teams?
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2012-09-07, 08:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games
Yes and no.
The Theseus thing was about a bunch of kids being released into a deadly maze where a monster would kill them one by one. They weren't fighting each other, but the net result was meant to be everyone dead. It was done by a conquering nation to a conquered nation, to remind them that they were subservient forever.
Theseus volunteered for the duty in an attempt to kill the Minotaur and end the sacrifices of his fellows. He then got some help from the daughter of the ruler, killed the Minotaur, and saved his fellow tributes. (Or at least some of them. I'm a little hazy on that bit.)
There are certainly a lot of thematic similarities.If you like my thoughts, you'll love my writing. Visit me at www.mishahandman.com.
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2012-09-07, 09:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games
@MLai: Well, to put it in my perspective: I've known about Theseus since I was seven. Therefore I'd be very surprised if a writer like Collins had not. Given that she herself lists it as part of her inspiration for the story... Yeah that seems like more than enough to be highly plausible.
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2012-09-07, 09:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
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My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2012-09-07, 09:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games
I never heard of Battle Royale until the movie adaptation of THG was released. So I don't see it as unreasonable that Collins hadn't, either. Especially since she doesn't seem to fit within BR's target demographic, whereas I kind of do.
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2012-09-07, 12:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games
I was aware of, but had not watched it. I'm not really much of an anime fan. I mean, it's not inherently anime/manga related except that it happens to be Japanese. It's not entirely mainstream, but it isn't unheard of, either. My roommate owns a copy of the movie. It's on netflix. For a foreign film, it's got decent notoriety. Could have been an inspiration, I suppose. I don't really know or care if it was an inspiration to Hunger Games...my objections to Hunger Games is based more on being outright bad than on being unoriginal.
I do agree that it is certainly more similar to Battle Royale than to greek mythology, though. In fact, I'd say that linking it to greek myth is a bit on the tenuous side.
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2012-09-07, 12:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games
I sincerely doubt that THG is based off the BR manga simply because well the manga is very obscure compared to the relative popularity of the book and movie version of Battle Royale. Especially because the tone and message of THG is much much closer to the novel than the manga. In that the BR novel is primarily a critique of Japanese nationalism and misguided nostalgia. THG is a (relatively poorly executed) critique on American consumer and entertainment culture. They use similar enough set pieces but in both the set pieces are less important than the message each is trying to portray. This is what makes them literature instead of just pop entertainment; or to be less generous shows us that they are trying to be more than just pop entertainment.
Harping on the manga is sort of bad form because well it's pretty much just violence porn, unless the chapters I read were the absolute worst of the bunch. Is the brony movement plagiarizing the 2005 Z-grade horror movie Ponytrouble, because they're both about grown men getting too obsessed with little plastic ponies?
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2012-09-07, 01:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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2012-09-07, 02:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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2012-09-07, 10:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
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- Expat in Singapore
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Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games
Regarding Battle Royale novel vs film vs manga:
I've no objections on being corrected on that. My point remains that I think she ripped off BR, and if it's the movie she ripped, then okay I stand corrected on that detail.
What is your point? That because you don't respect her, then it's not possible that she's familiar with a myth that she herself named?
The Theseus thing? Obviously she had to deal with the plausible accusation, and she had to think about it. Anyone could then come up with the line "Oh no, my true inspiration was actually Greek myth. See, I'm so erudite."
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2012-09-07, 10:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games
Except that she would have to find that myth after the fact, despite not knowing that it exists. Given the significant differences between the two (EDIT: Referring to THG and BR here), her actually not being aware of a movie that's she's not in the target demographic for and basing the idea more on the Theseus myth is the simpler and more likely explanation.
Last edited by Reverent-One; 2012-09-07 at 10:43 PM.
Thanks to Elrond for the Vash avatar.
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2012-09-07, 11:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games
Umm it's nice you're defending her integrity. I do acknowledge that I'm purposely making a fallacy here: I'm inferring her artistic integrity based on my perception of her writing skill. And yes I'm doing that as a mean-spirited joke.
However, the Theseus myth is not "the simpler and more likely explanation." In this age of globalized entertainment, a not-obscure foreign movie that has English translations is easily available to her. And, obviously she is in the target demographic -- she wrote something very similar to it!
As for how she found the Theseus myth after the fact? Umm, Google. It would take all of 10 minutes looking up a few keywords. I'm a hobby writer who is old enough to remember libraries, and from personal experience I can say Google changed everything.
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2012-09-07, 11:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-09-07, 11:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games
If you know what to look for. Which most Americans who wouldn't. It is an obscure movie for Americans, not getting a theatrical release here until 2011.
And, obviously she is in the target demographic -- she wrote something very similar to it!Thanks to Elrond for the Vash avatar.
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2012-09-07, 11:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games
No, I wouldn't say she committed plagiarism, even in my most mean-spirited fallacious assertions. Plagiarism would mean she took BR and copied the plot wholesale, including using specific paragraphs/words, only modifying it a bit for a different audience.
When I say "ripped off", I only mean that she took the specific base concept (and then wrote clumsily around that).
As in, "Hmm... this Jpnese movie is like The Running Man... plus teenagers! Oh what a brilliant idea, I bet I could work with that." I wouldn't say she copied much beyond that.
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2012-09-07, 11:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games
And why couldn't she have gotten the idea from the Theseus myth, which she explicitly cites as a source and has more in common with the Hunger Games than Battle Royale does to begin with?
Thanks to Elrond for the Vash avatar.
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2012-09-08, 12:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-09-08, 12:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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2012-09-08, 01:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
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2012-09-08, 01:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games
It's something that bugs me about Hunger Games.
I'd rather talk about ponies. Those "X finds portal to Equestria" threads are starting to work their magic on me.
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2012-09-08, 01:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games
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2012-09-08, 02:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2009
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Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games
Well, the other thing is that if you've read Collins other series Gregor the Overlander it is very clear that she is trying to tell stories that in some ways deconstruct the heroic teenager saving the world by making them face up to the horrible post traumatic stress disorder. The hunger games isn't that far of a jump from her previous series. Making the hunger games all about children hunting children for the amusement of the masses is pretty much complete exposure of her message.
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2012-09-08, 02:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
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2012-09-08, 08:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
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Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2012-09-12, 11:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-09-12, 03:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games
The argument is that THG is ripping off BR just as much as BR is ripping off Theseus. In both cases the literary purpose of the stories wildly varies from their stated source of plagiarism (BR exploration of Japanese nationalism etc, and THG criticism of reality TV and classism in America). Both however have similar setting devices leading to people who either aren't paying attention or don't examine anything below the absolute surface to claim THG ripped off BR.
That being said I think THG was pretty bad, just that claiming it ripped off BR is fundamentally dumb and represents an inability or refusal to analyze literature.
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2012-09-14, 11:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games
This thread is way off-topic..
OT: I love the Hunger Games. I've seen the movie. I bought all three books (fairly cheap too!) shortly after, and devoured them quite quickly. All in all, a great series. /shrugs Finnick sounds pretty hot too.
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2012-09-16, 10:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games
Just finished the third book. Great series. Young adult literature is vastly underestimated.
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2012-09-17, 06:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games
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2012-09-17, 07:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games
It's worth pointing out that Collins does know her stuff. From the Romans' recreational bulimia to a rather cool reference to the Theseus myth in Book 2 (the part when Theseus uses a golden thread that weaves through the Labyrinth to bust his way out of the maze), she actually does go to pains to make something substantial out of it.
Also, claiming that she'd much rather rip off Battle Royale because it's current (and, presumably, because it'd be a ripoff) than be inspired by a classic myth is a little paranoidish...