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2012-03-05, 05:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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How to improve your 3.5 Paladin with 4 (or 5) easy house rules (peach)
As DM, I was thinking about some quick ways to improved the paladin. I'm aware that the quickest one is to play a Crusader, but i still wanted to simply fix and enhancing the standard pally, using basically its well known class features and without adding anything too relevant to its core chassis.
Initially, I was toying with the idea of changing it to a PrC while improving it, but it ended no good: even if I give him more goodies, all the effort would be wasted if you must spend levels to have access to the class, so I decided to simply upgrade the base class.
We don't really need to improve the damage output or the survivability... those are not the problems of any martial class. As usual, we must work on versatility. Luckily for us, the paladin got spells... so, here we are.
1st step: Spell progression.
The paladin will maintain the actual spell progression, only, instead of having access to 1st lev. spells at 4th class level, it will begin since its first level. This way, a 11th lev. Pally will begin to casts spells of 4th lev, instead of having to wait 'til 14th lev.
Benefit: the spell progression will be only a little worse than the bard's, thus meaning that the pally's level of casting power, will be nearer to the other not-full casters.
2nd step: number of spells.
The bonus spells and the DC will be based on Cha, instead of Wis.
Benefit: more spells and little reduction of MAD.
3rd step: again, spells.
Similarly to a cleric, the paladin can choose ONE domain from among those belonging to his deity, or that represents his spiritual inclinations and abilities, thus gaining access to a domain spell at each spell level he can cast, as well as the relative granted power.
Benefit: more spells and a little improvement in versatility.
4th step: the mount.
In addition to the paladin's mount abilities as listed, the mount will gain (as Su abilities) the special power listed by the phantom steed spell (from riding over swampy ground at 8th lev., 'til fly at 14th).
Benefit: seems obvious...
All in all, it seems to me a good improvement, with very few modifications to the base class. What do you think?
EDIT:
as suggested by many, it's possible to add:
5th step: smite evil
when the paladin uses Smite Evil on a creature, it will remain active 'til the target creature is deadLast edited by Killer Angel; 2012-03-07 at 06:42 AM.
Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)
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2012-03-05, 07:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to improve your 3.5 Paladin with 4 easy house rules (peach)
I like it, if one of my players ever makes a Paladin I'll probably use these rules. Particularly the domain thing makes them more flavorful...
Do you have any idea on how to fix Smite Evil? Thematically, it's fine that you can only use it a few times per day (it's supposed to be some kind of epic finisher thing), but it's really too weak to warrant that.
EDIT: PF Smite is somewhat better, but only really changes the duration and thus doesn't work as a finishing move quite as well.Last edited by SilverLeaf167; 2012-03-05 at 07:46 AM.
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2012-03-05, 09:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to improve your 3.5 Paladin with 4 easy house rules (peach)
I like the PF Smite Evil because it's actually worthwhile to use; it's not a Finishing Move, but it's a "The final confrontation!" booster. Works for me.
If you want the Finishing Move,
a) double or triple the damage it does
b) give it a "Save or Die" feature, per the rules for coup de grace
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2012-03-05, 09:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to improve your 3.5 Paladin with 4 easy house rules (peach)
I didn't focus on smite evil, firstly because it wasn't my issue... it deals damage (something that you can usually achieve with PA or mounted combat) and so it's easy to fix it, if you're only looking to "I hit harder". One solution is the Pathfinder's, but you can invent something else, such increasing the number of SE, and so on.
If you're interested in the "finisher" thing, probably you can modify it in something different (examples: SE means that you bypass all DR, or that your next attack gains +20 sacred bonus to hit).Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)
Things that increase my self esteem:
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2012-03-05, 09:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to improve your 3.5 Paladin with 4 easy house rules (peach)
Personally, I like the spell-ideas in the OP; normally, it takes forever for a paladin to be able to really *do* something with his spells.
I wouldn't even be adverse to giving the paladin Battle Blessing at 4th or 6th level, to increase the efficiency in battle.
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2012-03-05, 10:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to improve your 3.5 Paladin with 4 easy house rules (peach)
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2012-03-05, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to improve your 3.5 Paladin with 4 easy house rules (peach)
Regarding Smite Evil i would have improve it by effectively giving it the same effects as the bless weapon spell for that attack.
ie it counts as a good weapon and automatically confirms crits.
If you wanted to boost it still further you could allow the crits to work on evil creatures not normally effected.
For example undead and bebiliths
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2012-03-05, 11:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to improve your 3.5 Paladin with 4 easy house rules (peach)
I'm partial to OneWinged4ngel's Rebalanced Paladin. Smite on a per-encounter basis, improved spellcasting and spell list, some nifty class features and nerfed dippability.
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2012-03-05, 11:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to improve your 3.5 Paladin with 4 easy house rules (peach)
1) Use Crusader - good option
2) Use Unearthed Arcana Prestige Paladin - better option for wanting to keep the paladinesque feel within 3E basics as opposed to Tome of Battle maneuver system. Does not take anything away from Crusader.
3) Use Pathfinder Paladin - best option. Pathfinder gave Paladins a lot of love.
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2012-03-06, 03:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to improve your 3.5 Paladin with 4 easy house rules (peach)
Battle Blessing certainly could be very helpful, and there are lots of rebalanced paladins that work fine, but it wasn't my objective.
B.B. is a not-core feat and rebalanced paladins (as the one linked), while good, are also based on new class features, often invented.
My adjustment was made having in mind "a paladin rewritten with Core material and minimal changes, but becoming more effective".
Battle Blessing is good, but I was avoiding those kind of things.
EDIT: I'm kinda sad, i was really hoping for more feedback...Last edited by Killer Angel; 2012-03-06 at 03:16 AM.
Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)
Things that increase my self esteem:
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2012-03-06, 03:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to improve your 3.5 Paladin with 4 easy house rules (peach)
PF Paladin is my favorite. If you really want to make the spell progression a little faster.
Edit: As for feedback:
Spell access faster is nice. I can't argue that and its not like Paladins have the craziest spells in the world.
Charisma as the casting stat is obvious.
I'd allow the paladin to pick from a list of Domain spells not from spells of any god that is 1 step away from what he is. I mean Paladin 2 / Sorc 5 picking Magic Domain is kind of amazing.
I like the mount idea. Its cool.
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2012-03-06, 05:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to improve your 3.5 Paladin with 4 easy house rules (peach)
While reformulating the Paladin portion for my [shameless plug]Trissociate[/shameless plug], I figured that one of the problems with Smite Evil was its action.
Its a standard action that is limited to 1 attack. This is fine for about level 1-5. At level 6, the Paladin faces a choice between using smite for +6 damage, or doing a full attack for a 2nd attack that does more than +6 damage (not counting the attack roll bonus for now). And the equation gets worse once you add in haste, and get to the higher iteratives.
So I made smite evil a free action, that could be added to any melee attack, but limited to once per round. (Besides making it sort-of-per-encounter, and giving the paladin 1 smite every odd level).ESPRE Super Powers Roleplay Engine: An open game RPG about super powers.
Spoiler
Trissociate 3.5 Homebrew Base Class. Mix & match abilites & templates to make virtually any sort of character! Emerald Legion A Mind Flayer's guide to breeding Ikea Tarrasques The Blob Ikea Tarrasques Redux through Fusion+Astral Seed Spellblade Tennis Throw out nigh infinite spells per round Sleeping Raven Infinite Blood Frenzy Nigh infinite melee damage exploit
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2012-03-06, 06:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to improve your 3.5 Paladin with 4 easy house rules (peach)
Personally, I like the changes you've suggested; I just think they could go a bit further still.
Have you considered letting the paladin choose from several possible domains? Aside from those his god offers, maybe some that fit with the paladin theme - Law, Honor, Valor, Justice, that sort of thing?
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2012-03-06, 06:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to improve your 3.5 Paladin with 4 easy house rules (peach)
Putting aside for a moment the issues on smite evil...
I suppose I could do something like this (as possible for a cleric not devoted to a particular deity):
mmm...
I like it. The OP has been edited accordingly.Last edited by Killer Angel; 2012-03-06 at 06:50 AM.
Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)
Things that increase my self esteem:
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2012-03-06, 06:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to improve your 3.5 Paladin with 4 easy house rules (peach)
I think this would really improve the paladin to the point of using. My problem with it was always its spells. How slow they were, how you needed Wis to cast them, and how limited they were. I think that if I have a player using Paladin in the future I will direct them to this. Good job.
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2012-03-06, 08:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to improve your 3.5 Paladin with 4 easy house rules (peach)
I like your version, would only adjust a little. The paladins i have encountered so far have serious trouble with their mounts in the dungeons the explore, so to them it is a wasted feature.
So i would just exchange the mount with the PF variant (charging your weapon instead) and be fine with it.
Good job!Original by gkathellar
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2012-03-06, 09:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to improve your 3.5 Paladin with 4 easy house rules (peach)
Uh, what? Smite evil isn't a standard action, you make it in place of any of your attacks. This can be a standard action or a full-round attack or (I'm fairly certain) even an AoO. In fact, that's one of the trouble with default Smite Evil, you're rewarded for stockpiling your daily uses for a single, tough enemy, and dropping 2-3 in a single full-round attack to try and take down your biggest enemy of the day as fast as possible. That's not fun, because limits the paladin's power to a round or two a day, and when it works right it's still not particularly satisfying because it's a foregone conclusion.
Proudly without a signature for 5 years. Wait... crap.
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2012-03-06, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-03-06, 10:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to improve your 3.5 Paladin with 4 easy house rules (peach)
Well, my mounted-combat characters are usually small, to use medium-sized beasts, so to me it's not an issue. But that's digressing... and mount needs some love too.
Having the access to bless weapon since first lev. helps a little.
The point is that I like very much PF pally, but boosting the weapon, while useful, is merely a version of "I hit harder", while boosting the mount with utilities like water walk and fly, gives more options, so I went for the mount.
I could think to upgrade the thing to "5 easy house rules", however...
Tnx.Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)
Things that increase my self esteem:
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2012-03-06, 11:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to improve your 3.5 Paladin with 4 easy house rules (peach)
Actually the text can be intepreted in 2 possible ways.
Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise.Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack...
The second is that "one normal melee attack" refers to the "noted otherwise" action.
Either way, it is quite poorly worded.Last edited by JeminiZero; 2012-03-06 at 11:04 AM.
ESPRE Super Powers Roleplay Engine: An open game RPG about super powers.
Spoiler
Trissociate 3.5 Homebrew Base Class. Mix & match abilites & templates to make virtually any sort of character! Emerald Legion A Mind Flayer's guide to breeding Ikea Tarrasques The Blob Ikea Tarrasques Redux through Fusion+Astral Seed Spellblade Tennis Throw out nigh infinite spells per round Sleeping Raven Infinite Blood Frenzy Nigh infinite melee damage exploit
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2012-03-06, 11:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to improve your 3.5 Paladin with 4 easy house rules (peach)
Definitely a bump up. I'd already committed to doing the spell progression and casting stat changes myself. Domain thing is fairly common and makes sense and not too powerful but is also good and can helpopen up some more options later onto the pally.
Mount flight makes more exotic mount ACFs/feats/selections less necessary and is a minor but decenly ineresting change.
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2012-03-06, 03:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to improve your 3.5 Paladin with 4 easy house rules (peach)
Hill Giant Games
I make indie gaming books for you!Spoiler
STaRS: A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system.
Grod's Guide to Greatness, 2e: A big book of player options for 5e.
Grod's Grimoire of the Grotesque: An even bigger book of variant and expanded rules for 5e.
Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.
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2012-03-06, 03:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-03-07, 03:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to improve your 3.5 Paladin with 4 easy house rules (peach)
Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)
Things that increase my self esteem:
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2012-03-07, 05:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2010
Re: How to improve your 3.5 Paladin with 4 easy house rules (peach)
I've never really seen how a paladin plays I'm kinda a newbie and my group tends to shy away from them (out of lack of interest as opposed to any class inefficiencies)
That being said a thought occurred. As is, between Pathfinder and 3.5 as far as I recall any class that uses Cha as the casting stat is a spontaneous caster, any class that uses Wis or Int is prepared. Since in the OP you said paladin spell progression would still be less than bards, perhaps making them spontaneous casters.
The Core spell list isn't too many spells so you might not even need to restrict spells known, but again this may be lack of experience talking so you could do something roughly Spells per day + 1 per level + domain spells = spells known?