Is there any precedent? If so where?

[unseenmage]

Say I have an Animated Object or a weapon with the Flying enhancement from MoF so it is 'treated as an animated object'.

Assume that applying the Sacred Guardian Template (or another template) to these Animated Objects.

Is there anything in the order of operations, or the Rules Compendium, or anything, which will tell us what the result is?

For example, what RAW prevents a player from applying the Sacred Guardian Template to the Flying enhancement weapon?

Also, what happens to the 'Dispellable' quality that the Animated Object has? Is it still there by RAW? Could a player pay to apply a template to an Animated Object only to have that Animated Object dispelled?

I know I've brought this up before and I apologize for being so thick but it was bugging me. I would really like to know how these things could/would be handled by the rules themselves without falling back on the old 'ask your DM' chestnut.

Thanks regardless Playground.

[Urpriest]

Since Sacred Guardian is the only template I know of that works in this way, it should have rules in it that clarify. If it doesn't, those rules need to be added in errata.

[Fax Celestis]

An Animated Object is a kind of creature. An animated object is a kind of item. So no, you can't apply a template. Unless you were to use animate objects to animate objects into Animated Objects and somehow apply templates while using animate objects to turn animate objects into Animate Objects for your Animated animated Object collection (or perhaps for a friend to watch anime with).

It's this all over again.

[Urpriest]

An Animated Object is a kind of creature. An animated object is a kind of item. So no, you can't apply a template. Unless you were to use animate objects to animate objects into Animated Objects and somehow apply templates while using animate objects to turn animate objects into Animate Objects for your Animated animated Object collection (or perhaps for a friend to watch anime with).

It's this all over again.

He's referring to the Flying special ability, which makes an animated object into an animate object...oh I give up.

[unseenmage]

An Animated Object is a kind of creature. An animated object is a kind of item. So no, you can't apply a template. Unless you were to use animate objects to animate objects into Animated Objects and somehow apply templates while using animate objects to turn animate objects into Animate Objects for your Animated animated Object collection (or perhaps for a friend to watch anime with).

It's this all over again.

First, this made me smile. Thanks, I needed it today.
Second, for the Flying Enhancement-ed weapon this is less the case as it specifically is called out as being treated as an Animated Object (the creature).
Third, my apologies for not being clearer as to which animated object I was referring. Thaks for pointing out that that could be an issue.

[Captnq]

Sacred Guardian Template is from Bestiary of Krynn. That makes it 2nd party.
Flying is 3.0.

So you want to combine 2nd party template with a 3.0 Weapon Special Ability?

My answer is: No.
I would not allow it. Find something from WotC that is 3.5 and then we can talk.

[unseenmage]

Sacred Guardian Template is from Bestiary of Krynn. That makes it 2nd party.
Flying is 3.0.

So you want to combine 2nd party template with a 3.0 Weapon Special Ability?

My answer is: No.
I would not allow it. Find something from WotC that is 3.5 and then we can talk.

Whether you would allow it or not isn't the issue. Nor was it my question. Sacred Guardian was also just an example.

[Urpriest]

Whether you would allow it or not isn't the issue. Nor was it my question. Sacred Guardian was also just an example.

There aren't really any other examples, though. Most of the time the devs were savvy enough to not put in acquired templates that can be placed on creatures that only exist temporarily. It's the job of someone who writes a template that can be applied that way to specify its effect.

Actually, on that note: does Incarnate Construct work for this setup? My take would be that, because it removes pretty much all traits the creature is no longer an animated object at all, but I could see the other interpretation being viable as well.

[unseenmage]

There aren't really any other examples, though. Most of the time the devs were savvy enough to not put in acquired templates that can be placed on creatures that only exist temporarily. It's the job of someone who writes a template that can be applied that way to specify its effect.

Actually, on that note: does Incarnate Construct work for this setup? My take would be that, because it removes pretty much all traits the creature is no longer an animated object at all, but I could see the other interpretation being viable as well.

Incarnate Construct and the Awaken construct spell both need the target to be permanently a creature and Incarnate Construct requires that the creature be further 'humanoid form'. I am unsure of whether Incarnate Construct removes the 'Dispellable' tag or not, I'm fairly certain that Awaken Construct doesn't.

And yeah, there are very few templates that can be applied to Constructs for a cost by the player, but quite a few that can be applied to constructs at random by the DM. Edit: Y'know, if templating doesn't remove an Animated Object's weakness to Dispel then it could be almost kinda useful to be able to jack up their CR with template stacking while leaving them that glass jaw of Dispell weakness.

For my purposes this is more of a DM excercise but with a nod to the rules. I prefer to DM from a standpoint of RAW whenever possible or to at least know what rules I am breaking when the need arises. That is the true purpose of this thread, to help me wrap my head around what the rules have to say on this corner case.

[Chronos]

Fax Celestis, the creature listed under "Animated Object" is exactly what you get when you cast the spell "Animate Object" on an item. When you cast the spell, the item becomes a creature. It also remains an item: There's no rule in D&D that a thing can't be both.

[Urpriest]

Fax Celestis, the creature listed under "Animated Object" is exactly what you get when you cast the spell "Animate Object" on an item. When you cast the spell, the item becomes a creature. It also remains an item: There's no rule in D&D that a thing can't be both.

Fax was referring to animated shields and dancing swords and the like.

Anyway, let's pursue this, and look for a template that actually provides a good example.

We'll restrict ourselves to Acquired templates, so 3.5 material.

Hivenest is the first thing that doesn't seem totally stupid (if a god is sending out an Aleax of a Animated Object, something silly is going on). So let's say that we have a Hivenest Animated Object. I don't see any inconsistency with it keeping its dispel-ability, so it probably does. If you dispel the Animate Object, you're eliminating it without killing it, so probably Hivedeath doesn't trigger, but I would probably houserule it to trigger since you're essentially killing it by another method.

Mob is another perfectly logical example, and again it's pretty straightforward: things that target one creature only work on one mob member, so dispelling eliminates one member of the mob. The effect is again well-defined.

You only get a hint of problems when you impose intelligence on a temporary creature, which Incarnate and Awaken intentionally exclude. So Sacred Guardian should have been built with the same restrictions in mind.

[Doc_Maynot]

An Animated Object is a kind of creature. An animated object is a kind of item. So no, you can't apply a template. Unless you were to use animate objects to animate objects into Animated Objects and somehow apply templates while using animate objects to turn animate objects into Animate Objects for your Animated animated Object collection (or perhaps for a friend to watch anime with).

May I sig this?

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... Savage Species has a spell called minor servitor that can perminately animate an object. Skimmed the topic so I don't know if that applies or not.

[unseenmage]

Fax was referring to animated shields and dancing swords and the like.

Anyway, let's pursue this, and look for a template that actually provides a good example.

We'll restrict ourselves to Acquired templates, so 3.5 material.

Hivenest is the first thing that doesn't seem totally stupid (if a god is sending out an Aleax of a Animated Object, something silly is going on). So let's say that we have a Hivenest Animated Object. I don't see any inconsistency with it keeping its dispel-ability, so it probably does. If you dispel the Animate Object, you're eliminating it without killing it, so probably Hivedeath doesn't trigger, but I would probably houserule it to trigger since you're essentially killing it by another method.

Mob is another perfectly logical example, and again it's pretty straightforward: things that target one creature only work on one mob member, so dispelling eliminates one member of the mob. The effect is again well-defined.

You only get a hint of problems when you impose intelligence on a temporary creature, which Incarnate and Awaken intentionally exclude. So Sacred Guardian should have been built with the same restrictions in mind.

But then you get some weirdness with the aforementioned Minor Servitor and/or Permanency-ed Animated Objects. They're permanent now, and they can certainly be humanoid shaped.

So I guess it still goes along with what you pointed out, that unless the template completely rewrites the creature an Animated Object would still be Dispel-able after templating.

That is just so many kinds of weird. But I guess that's what a mage gets for shopping in the bargain bin of Construct Mart and animating just whatever garbage he happens to find instead of making a right proper Golem.

[Fax Celestis]

May I sig this?

Sure.