The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

[ExLibrisMortis]

In that case you just lose a single manifester level. Something thats not nearly as important for a psion due to the argumentation mechanics.

If anything, augmentation (I guess autocorrect got you there) makes manifester levels even more important. It unlocks new uses for older, lower-level powers. It is knowledge of higher-level powers that is somewhat less important for a psion than a wizard (although 6ths include temporal acceleration, known to wizards as time stop, so...).

Things like physical boosts, hit points, and natural armour are all obtainable through powers anyway, chiefly through metamorphosis and vigor. Telepathy is available with a Mindbender dip (assuming the psionic conversion is in play), or simply with five levels in Telepath. None of these things are as valuable to a full caster as they are to a bruiser.

Okay, people say SR/PR is a double-edged sword, but that much is practically immunity, and that's without boosting it further with things like a Dazzix's Vest or Boost Spell Resistance.

As I wrote, it's four points better than the PR the power resistance power will get you without ML boosts (15 + class levels for the racial PR, 12 + ML for the power). If you Overchannel power resistance with an orange ioun stone, you can have the same PR for minutes/level (typically 15+ minutes). A psion with no lost ML only needs three extra manifester levels to get equal PR. So: yes, it's powerful, and much more convenient, but no, it's not out of line (as ability) with what you can expect a psion to have (when needed) anyway. As a point of comparison, consider a class feature along the lines of "+4 PR when using the power resistance power". Such a feature would be strong, but not unreasonably so.

[danielxcutter]

Yep, immunity from life saving healing spells.

Hence "double-edged sword", but considering Vigor, Body Adjustment, and True Metabolism are things(and also on the standard Psion list), it's not quite a problem as it is for, say, a Wizard.

If anything, augmentation (I guess autocorrect got you there) makes manifester levels even more important. It unlocks new uses for older, lower-level powers. It is knowledge of higher-level powers that is somewhat less important for a psion than a wizard (although 6ths include temporal acceleration, known to wizards as time stop, so...).

Things like physical boosts, hit points, and natural armour are all obtainable through powers anyway, chiefly through metamorphosis and vigor. Telepathy is available with a Mindbender dip (assuming the psionic conversion is in play), or simply with five levels in Telepath. None of these things are as valuable to a full caster as they are to a bruiser.

Practiced Manifester is a thing, though.

As I wrote, it's four points better than the PR the power resistance power will get you without ML boosts (15 + class levels for the racial PR, 12 + ML for the power). If you Overchannel power resistance with an orange ioun stone, you can have the same PR for minutes/level (typically 15+ minutes). A psion with no lost ML only needs three extra manifester levels to get equal PR. So: yes, it's powerful, and much more convenient, but no, it's not out of line (as ability) with what you can expect a psion to have (when needed) anyway. A class feature along the lines of "+4 PR when using the power resistance power" would be strong, but not unreasonable.

Yeah, except you don't need to spend a power known on Power Resistance. And 5th level is pretty damn crowded.

[Blue Jay]

Yep, immunity from life saving healing spells.

I don't think healing is the main problem with SR/PR. By default, you can lower your SR at will with just an action cost, and that action cost is really only relevant for in-combat healing (which optimizers tell you not to do anyway). Also, the entry says SR doesn't interfere with spells you cast yourself or items you use yourself, so that arguably means you automatically overcome your own SR and can heal yourself. So, aside from stabilizing yourself when dying, healing shouldn't really be too problematic.

Accepting buff spells from the rest of the party has always been the biggest hassle of SR, in my experience.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Practiced Manifester is a thing, though.

Practiced Manifester won't help you make up lost ML from LA, because it increases your ML up to a maximum of your HD, and one thing LA does not grant is HD. That is more or less the point of LA.

In fact, having manifesting equal to HD + 1 means that Practiced Manifester doesn't do anything for an illithid until their second lost manifester level. An illithid thrallherd 10 (18 HD, 17th-level manifesting) can't use Practiced Manifester to make up both ML lost to Thrallherd. I mean, it's a Thrallherd with 9th-level powers, so you really don't need to, but as an example.

Yeah, except you don't need to spend a power known on Power Resistance. And 5th level is pretty damn crowded.

*shrug* I guess it's also a free power known then?

Yes, PR is nice to have, and illithid get a better version than most. But even the PR illithid get is not "practically immunity" (not even a golem's "infinite SR" is close to immunity to magic as possessed by e.g. dragonbone golems), and if it really is that good and worth a point of LA, you can expect all your full casters to run comparable amounts of SR anyway.

[Celestia]

I don't think healing is the main problem with SR/PR. By default, you can lower your SR at will with just an action cost, and that action cost is really only relevant for in-combat healing (which optimizers tell you not to do anyway). Also, the entry says SR doesn't interfere with spells you cast yourself or items you use yourself, so that arguably means you automatically overcome your own SR and can heal yourself. So, aside from stabilizing yourself when dying, healing shouldn't really be too problematic.

Accepting buff spells from the rest of the party has always been the biggest hassle of SR, in my experience.

I know, but this made my comment more pithy.

[Inevitability]

Overwhelming majority for +3, psionic mindflayer will be set to that.

[Inevitability]

Neothelid

AKA: the result of a mind flayer larva being left alone for too long. Amusingly, while pathfinder was legally prevented from including illithids, the neothelid were completely fair game, leading to a bestiary where the latter were just awkwardly shoved in.

25 aberration RHD don't bode too well for playability, sadly. Additionally, anything that'd like being Gargantuan would also like having functioning hands.

The wormbeasts also have a wide variety of PLAs, but those tend to be mid-level at most.

The neothelid's other abilities: swallow whole, improved grab, and a strong acid breath weapon, are not all that impressive when you're a mid-epic character.

Overall, -0 LA. Remove a ton of RHD and this might be more playable.

[StevenC21]

Easy -0.

25 aberration HD is an absolute death knell for a player.

[liquidformat]

scary worm is an easy -0

[ZamielVanWeber]

I love this thing conceptually and visually but 25 HD had better have something solid and this is NOT it. -0.

[ViperMagnum357]

Neothelid: yuck, on a lot of levels. 25 Aberration RHD, below average natural AC, terrible ground speed with no other modes, no hands, terrible PR, and mediocre PLAs and a natural attack routine. Oh, and the net abilities of something 13 RHD. There is really nothing here to salavage, I think: LA -0.

[remetagross]

LA -0 too, though the picture is awesome.

[MisterKaws]

It's cute.

-0

[MrSandman]

LA -0, clearly.

[Thurbane]

Even without much knowledge of psionics, I can easily see this thing is not a functional epic level PC; LA -0.

[OgresAreCute]

Might not contribute much to the party, but the crowd at the sea cucumber convention are gonna love it!

-0.

[Zaq]

[CENTER]Neothelid



25 aberration RHD

Aaand we’re done here.

[Thurbane]

Not to jump the gun (honestly though, I can't foresee anything other than LA -0 for the giant psi-worm), but the conversation about Phrenic should be interesting. It's generally acknowledged as one of the best LA +2 templates out there.

[Efrate]

Neolithid has waaaaaaay to many HD to be viable. Isn't there something similar in the ELH?

-0

[javcs]

Neolithid has waaaaaaay to many HD to be viable. Isn't there something similar in the ELH?

-0

That would be most of the ELH with too many RHD.

Unless you meant is there another oversized worm type monster ... and then probably? I mean WotC tossed in "epic" versions (they're really not) of mundane animals and vermin, plus there's a bunch of weirdo monsters in the ELH.

Edit: Oh, right. LA -0, duh.

[ViperMagnum357]

Neolithid has waaaaaaay to many HD to be viable. Isn't there something similar in the ELH?

The Ha-Naga has Sorcerer caster levels in excess of its Hit Dice, not much of a comparison point there.

[danielxcutter]

So... how do they fare for their CR?

[Zancloufer]

Do we even need to discuss something with 20+ RHD? -yes to it's LA.

[ViperMagnum357]

Do we even need to discuss something with 20+ RHD? -yes to it's LA.

We will when we get to the Ha-Naga.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Do we even need to discuss something with 20+ RHD? -yes to it's LA.

MM2's linnorms have substantial casting, massive stats, and dragon HD. I suspect even the 25 HD one will end up with an LA (although admittedly this thread has suffered a touch of the power creep).

[MisterKaws]

Ha-Naga, Linnorms, Steel Dragons, et cetera.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I made a post in the previous thread on accident. Mostly irrelevant, but there's on point I think is worth sharing:

(you try finding armor that fits a walking brain)

Helmets.

Anyways:

I would say that any game that uses the Illithid Savant would also be TO enough to allow the cheese necessary to qualify for it without being an Illithid. Thus, I don't think an asterisk is needed.

What kind of cheese is that? Or are you just assuming that there is some because of how many cheesily broken things there are in 3.5?

We eat things of other races that are less intelligent than us. In our case, animals.
They eat things of other races that are less intelligent than them. The only difference is that the things of other races just happen to be us.

I'd argue that the morality of eating something is based on their absolute intelligence, not their relative intelligence. Ignoring that quantifying intelligence like that is impossible, it's as wrong for a crocodile to eat a cow as it is for a human to eat a cow (assuming the croc and human are in sufficiently similar circumstances), because you're killing a cow either way.
Granted, if your moral epistemology doesn't assume all actors should be judged the same (given the same scenario, of course), this argument falls flat. But that axiom is an important part of mine, so I don't like this kind of argument.

That's what the books written by humans say. Animals may very well have concepts such as familial love and friendship.

They definitely do. So do Evil creatures. Kindness and companionship are not the sole domain of Pelor's buddies; if they were, Evil would be less like a wolf at Heaven's door and more like a swarm of mosquitos running into Its bug-zapper.

[MisterKaws]

Helmets.

You forgot shoes. It's got legs y'know.

What kind of cheese is that? Or are you just assuming that there is some because of how many cheesily broken things there are in 3.5?

PAO, likely. Or some Emancipated Spawn thing. Does that even work with Mind Flayer?

I'd argue that the morality of eating something is based on their absolute intelligence, not their relative intelligence. Ignoring that quantifying intelligence like that is impossible, it's as wrong for a crocodile to eat a cow as it is for a human to eat a cow (assuming the croc and human are in sufficiently similar circumstances), because you're killing a cow either way.
Granted, if your moral epistemology doesn't assume all actors should be judged the same (given the same scenario, of course), this argument falls flat. But that axiom is an important part of mine, so I don't like this kind of argument.

Crocodiles still consider themselves superior to cows. My point here is that it wouldn't be morally wrong to eat a being whom you don't even consider as an equal.

Also, crocodiles and wolves are Neutral, but tending towards Evil according to Lycanthropy. But that's the developers' weirdness speaking.

They definitely do. So do Evil creatures. Kindness and companionship are not the sole domain of Pelor's buddies; if they were, Evil would be less like a wolf at Heaven's door and more like a swarm of mosquitos running into Its bug-zapper.

And that's why anyone who eats normal food is Evil. Only Create Food-egans realized the truth of their mistakes and repented by eating magically created food that harms no living beings.

[OgresAreCute]

Crocodiles still consider themselves superior to cows. My point here is that it wouldn't be morally wrong to eat a being whom you don't even consider as an equal.

Also, crocodiles and wolves are Neutral, but tending towards Evil according to Lycanthropy. But that's the developers' weirdness speaking.

That is explicitly not how it works.

Alignment
Any. Noble creatures such as bears, eagles, and lions tend to produce good-aligned lycanthropes. Sinister creatures such as rats, snakes, and wolves tend to produce evil-aligned lycanthropes. This is a reflection of how these animals are perceived, not any innate quality of the animal itself, so the alignment of the animal form can be arbitrarily assigned.

Emphasis mine, taken from here.

[MisterKaws]

That is explicitly not how it works.

Emphasis mine, taken from here.

Aww, you ruined my joke using RAW.

Fair enough.