OOTS #886 - The Discussion Thread

[Lissou]

Really nice. I love how there were more and more hints that none of this was true, until the biggest one, when Xykon says "Roy" right before he dies... yeah, right.

I wonder if every member of the Order is experiencing a completely different illusion right now? Or can they hear each other and are they integrating it in their own "dream"? I guess we'll figure that out.

EDIT: Also, I gasped when Mr Scruffy died. I don't really care that Belkar is still alive, but I'm really glad Scruffy is too. We can't see him on the last panel though so I wonder if the illusion works on him or if they didn't bother to make the rune apply to animals?

[JessmanCA]

It's not really a palette swap, the whole comic just gets slightly more purple-ish with each panel. Compare the colour of Roy's face in panel 6 with the colour of his face as he kills Xykon.

I know, but the fading in of the palette swap begins in panel 5. Look at panels 1 through 4, they're regular color.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I'm left puzzled what the fake RC was referring to when he says that Xykon "already used that line" though.

It's not a mystery, he is referring to the second panel of the first page.

"Hey! No one shoots the goblin in the face but me!"

[prism6691]

When i saw belkar die i thought it was still possible to be real, but then mr. scruffy. I knew it couldn't be. No one harms the scruffinator :)

[Stricken]

I remember the previous comic's thread pointing out how Redcloak's eyepatch was just tantalisingly out-of-frame, which made me associate the question of "illusion or not" with whether he'd have an eyepatch or not. So as soon as Redcloak walked into this comic with an eyepatch, I thought to myself, "Oh no, this is actually happening!" I would never have noticed it was on the wrong eye (let alone the holy symbol being the old one too).

What masterful tricks. They got me hook, line and sinker – for a good while. I tip my hat to you, Giant. For every person who rules-nitpicks you, there are bound to be ten times as many fans who are just blown away by how excellent your storytelling is.

[sam79]

The runes actually activate inbetween panels 4 and 5 of 886. Note the pallette swap at that point. So they are actually fighting Xykon, but Belkar isn't dead.

I wonder: is Xykon under the effect of the runes too?

If that was the case, surely the eye-patch would be in the correct place?

[DaggerPen]

I could have sworn that Thanh removed his eye in his epic, though ultimately unsuccessful struggle to take down Xykon. The Order have seen him since. Presumably, he related "I took Xykon's Goblin's eye." Even though regeneration is a fairly straight forward spell, the Order are all fools, and did not connect that to him getting his eye back.

You mean O-Chul, not Thanh, right?

Wow, I almost had a heart attack when Belkar and Xykon both died in the course of two pages. I was thinking "no way, Belkar's death deserves at least a 10-page lead-up, and Xykon's should get at least fifty!". Then I got to the last panel...

and didn't understand what had happened, so I came to the forums and now I get it. :P

By the way, Xykon saying Roy's name was a nice touch.

P.S. Now that I've read it the second time, the illusion sequence gets progressively more purple-hued as the comic goes along. Subtle, but effective. Well done, Giant.

P.P.S. Mr. Scruffy dying in the 8th panel may be the saddest thing ever.

Ha! I didn't even notice the progressive purple hues.

... I also did not note Scruffy dying. Thank god it's an illusion. I love that little cat.

The eye-patch on the wrong eye was pretty brilliant. I'd never notice it without being told because I am so used to seeing sprites flipped.

So, I guess the fake Redcloak is the true wrong-eye.

I have to give props to the giant. While I was reading the dialogue, I had a feeling something was amiss. The illusory Xykon and Redcloak just don't have the same "voice" as the real ones. RC in particular talks just like he did in the dungeon of Dorukan, which makes since because the Order hasn't had much face-to-face contact with him since then. That didn't stop me from audibly gasping at Belkar's and then Xykno's death before the reveal.

Yeah, their voices seemed kinda off to me, too. And I can't believe I didn't notice the eyepatch flip - that should have been a dead giveaway, but nope, we all totally fell for it! I did notice that his holy symbol was round vs. square again, but I couldn't remember if he'd gotten a replacement one that looked more phylactery-like, so I didn't think much of it.

I'm left puzzled what the fake RC was referring to when he says that Xykon "already used that line" though.

Early in the fight, he said "No one shoots the goblin in the face but me!" So he repeated that line later.

[Psyren]

Thank goodness the gate has some defenses left.

Unfortunately, they appear to be enchantment rather than illusion, which won't stop Xykon at all.

The DC must have been pretty high to stop Roy, but that's not surprising if they came from Girard.

That's simply not true.

Given that (a) all epic spells are literally made from scratch and (b) there is no rule saying that the sample ones suggested for characters by the ELH have totally unique names, it's perfectly possible to make your own "Superb Dispelling" that follows the rules of the seeds themselves rather than the text of the preprinted one.

It isn't even homebrew or breaking the rules - literally by the rules of epic spell development, you are making your own. Unless you have a quote from the Giant that says "Xykon is using the one from ELH pg. 87 with no variations," then you can't authoritatively state what is and isn't true regarding it.

[Mage Paradox]

It doesn't explain two things: 1) why it has correct Spellcraft DC for a Dispel Seed and 2) where is the mitigating factor for not having all the features of a Dispel Seed.

But if you want to go that way, the rules state simply that those are only examples of spells listed that STILL need to be researched. Since by the rules of researching and creating epic spells you cannot invent a Superb Dispelling spell without all the perks of Dispel Seed and without any house ruled mitigating factors, the only Superb Dispelling spell Xykon can research is one that dispels Forcecage.

This has been gone over before. Alot of people do not agree with this explanation. I am one of them. Superb Dispelling is not a theoretical spell that doesn't exist (as I have heard some people say). It exists, many set epic spells exist, and if you pick to develop that specific spell of it, then it does not dispel an AMF under the rules. Whether a homebrewed version of it would work differently is another matter, and someone else can do the calculation on it. Secondly, the Dispel Seed doesn't dispel everything. It CAN dispel things it doesn't normally dispel, but it doesn't say it necessarily will in any given instance (and what the limits and lines drawn are). There are spells it would be outright absurd for Superb Dispelling to stop, so clearly it doesn't dispel anything. The written version just doesn't give it that ability.

[JessmanCA]

If that was the case, surely the eye-patch would be in the correct place?

Or there could be another explanation. He could have regenerated the eye and then something happened to that other eye while they were off-strip. Maybe it's not redcloak, it's his twin brother or something. Maybe it's all part of the fake-out

[Aharon]

That's just cruel. And mean. And, admittedly, a really good explanation for how suddenly Xykon turned up, which seemed kind of fishy.

[137beth]

Wow...



Also, Mageparadox, why the heck do you keep bringing up Xykon's epic spells? You've managed to convince everyone who gives a crap of your lack of understanding of the epic rules, and made it clear that you consider mechanics which aren't even necessarily used in actual D&D games to be more important to a non-game comic than the stuff the comic is actually about (plot). What are you trying to get at?

When i saw belkar die i thought it was still possible to be real, but then mr. scruffy. I knew it couldn't be. No one harms the scruffinator :)

Mr. Scruffy is going to kill the real Xykon. Only a cat can destroy a phylactery.

[Gabe the Bard]

The subtle tinting of the panels to a purple hue is a very nice touch. I didn't even notice it until I saw the last two panels.

[sam79]

Or there could be another explanation. He could have regenerated the eye and then something happened to that other eye while they were off-strip. Maybe it's not redcloak, it's his twin brother or something. Maybe it's all part of the fake-out

Yeah....I suppose....seems a big stretch though, especially given Xykon's specific order about not regenerating his eye. Seems most likely that Team Evil isn't there, surely?

Which is not to say they are not in the pyramid somewhere; they're just probably nt in that corridor right now.

[JessmanCA]

Actually, 1 problem with my theory: Roy's sword is put away in the last panel. Although, he still could have put it away after he 'killed Xykon' while enchanted.

[The Giant]

The Voice of Mod: OK, no more discussion of Dispel seeds or epic magic or anything related. It's off-topic and has been done already. Move along.

[DaggerPen]

EDIT: Sorry, started typing up the post without seeing Giant's response. Self-scrubbed.

Maybe it's not redcloak, it's his twin brother or something.

*coughs loudly*

*no, there's just something in my throat*

*really*

SOD Spoilers -

Spoiler

Show

You do know about Right-Eye, yes?

[Bedinsis]

If they're all experiencing the same illusion, what is Belkar seeing at the present?

[B. Dandelion]

WOW! That was intense. I actually thought the title was pretty suggestive of it being illusory even before I read the comic ("from within" indeed), but admittedly once I WAS reading it, I was reading as fast as I could while going "holy crap!" so often it became a little hard to track all the off-details. I'm not sure I ever would have caught Redcloak's eyepatch (that was brilliant), although I did on the re-read spot the increasing purple tint and Vaarsuvius' lack of injuries.

[ManuelSacha]

Anti-climatic as it was... I really thought Belkar was dead.
Anti-climatic as it was... I really believed Xykon was defeated.

You got me, there, Giant.
Heh... V's line about overhearing Roy's plan should have tipped me off.

PS: I blame Haley!

[oppyu]

Noticed two things while re-reading;
1: Ha! That title is awesome! One of the best, I think.
2: Holy crap Mr. Scruffy charges at Xykon and dies. I cannot believe I missed that the first time.

[JessmanCA]

Spoiler

Show

You do know about Right-Eye, yes?

I read it at some point. I don't know how you all remember the story so vividly when these are released once a week when we're lucky (these days). I guess you've read everything more than once. I've read the entire comic once, but it's been over an 8 year span..

[Mike Havran]

The subtle tinting of the panels to a purple hue is a very nice touch. I didn't even notice it until I saw the last two panels.

Yep. I absolutely loved this little detail.

Excellent strip, Giant.

I wonder what will happen to the Order now? They are now...eh, even more completely screwed than they were before. Maybe the Illusion will be able to tell they were not going to use the Gate?

Oh, and I'm looking forward to see Nale in the corridor

[oppyu]

I read it at some point. I don't know how you all remember the story so vividly when these are released once a week when we're lucky (these days). I guess you've read everything more than once. I've read the entire comic once, but it's been over an 8 year span..

Someone corrects you on oots knowledge, and you respond by subtly employing the 'I didn't know that because I actually have a life, unlike you' argument? That's just poor sportsmanship *shakes head in disappointment*

[DaggerPen]

I read it at some point. I don't know how you all remember the story so vividly when these are released once a week when we're lucky (these days). I guess you've read everything more than once. I've read the entire comic once, but it's been over an 8 year span..

Heh. I actually haven't been able to get my poor broke little hands on any of the prequel books yet, but I always read the forum spoilers. Anyway, just wanted to make sure you weren't unaware of the hilarity of your line. XD

[Kolero]

I don't get what all the fuss about the superb dispelling is about... You're telling me that an illusion of Xykon who tried to use a made-up spell that fizzed and thus we don't know if it works or not, would not have worked if it had succeed? It wouldn't have proven anything even if it had succeed on-panel, it was all an illusion anyway...

[Fowlor]

Whoops! Should really be smarter and read page 3 before I start throwing my two cents in.

Anyways, a fun fake out! And I have to agree with the earlier poster, while this was short enough that things felt off, it was way better than dragging it on appropriately and leaving folks feeling cheated.

You have to feel for Roy, sacrificing so much to stop one maniac and receiving zero recognition from said maniac despite being involved in the major screwing up his plans big time and in person twice now!

[JessmanCA]

Someone corrects you on oots knowledge, and you respond by subtly employing the 'I didn't know that because I actually have a life, unlike you' argument? That's just poor sportsmanship *shakes head in disappointment*

I was actually hoping for a clarification on the thing they mentioned. I forget. I was admitting that I have a poor memory. And I've been very busy.

[oppyu]

I was actually hoping for a clarification on the thing they mentioned. I forget. I was admitting that I have a poor memory. And I've been very busy.

Ah. I'm an idiot, and we're moving on with the thread.

...

Isn't that Giant amazing?

[shamgar001]

I was thinking that Xykon is from a class that's defined as not knowing what they're doing to some extent. It's plausible that in the heat of the moment, he didn't realize that it didn't work.

Then I realized that it doesn't matter what the real Xykon knows. Does Roy know anything reliable about spellcasting. Even if the illusion is a group effort, the most know legible caster there is Elan...