VS Battles Wiki Make No Sense At All

[Prime32]

To be fair, by Touhou standards the ability to destroy stars isn't even particularly standout. Utsuho Reiuji is an upper-middle tier in terms of Touhou characters and her primary methods of attack are, for all intents and purposes, hydrogen bombs and throwing small stars at people. I can think of at least four Touhou characters, including Utsuho, who could snuff out a sun without too much trouble, and I'm not even particularly well-versed in Touhou lore.

Now, one of the problems in the Touhou fandom is that people forget the rules of Danmaku battles intentionally skew things to make it possible for, say, Cirno to operate in the same general ballpark as Yukari Yakumo or Flandre Scarlet. You can't and shouldn't transitive property Touhou characters. Marisa is one of the top dogs because she's perfectly suited to the rules by which conflicts are resolved in-setting, not because she actually has the power to beat on people who are basically gods.

There's a bunch of issues with bringing Touhou into power level arguments. Not only are most conflicts in the series resolved through trickery or the magical equivalent of fencing, but everyone talks themselves up so very few sources on what they can do are reliable. Plus the setting explicitly runs on a jumble of outdated models of physics, and characters have only a shaky understanding of how the Outside World works. So you end up with things like Marisa yelling "This attack is made of light, nothing's faster than light!" and her attack taking several seconds to reach her target with no one finding this odd.

Yukari is one of the most often inflated, since she ghostwrote her own article in an in-universe encyclopedia describing herself as basically omnipotent and omniscient. In reality her "gaps" have many limitations on where she can place them, her favourite way of gathering information is by bluffing that she already knows what's going on, and she's extremely cautious about fights to the point where her friends have called her a coward playing tough. But none of this is obvious if you just take random scenes out of context.

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Yukari being good with "boundaries" has multiple meanings. She's a difficult boss because she designed attack patterns which are just barely legal in a duel, and she's survived screwing with gods because she knows just how far she can take it before they smite her for it.

[LibraryOgre]

May I put this in my extened sig?
I laughed pretty hard at this post.

Go for it.

I will now be selling tickets to the Mod Cage Match between LibraryOrge and The Glyphstone.

That's easy. I win, because I am far more willing to cheat.

[The Glyphstone]

I will now be selling tickets to the Mod Cage Match between LibraryOrge and The Glyphstone.

LibraryOrge could be banned on the grounds of attempting to impersonate a mod, or at least forced into a name change, so defeat guaranteed either way.

[animorte]

And yeah, Bugs Bunny was noted by this same poster as the only character whose feats exceeded Dora.

SpongeBob can apparently unravel the entire universe in under five seconds.

Anyway, my opinion about the entire thing is that it provides some interesting comparative insight. Then when you're looking at something with only one interpretation, it takes away a lot of that ambiguity that exists with mainstream multiple-writer things like Marvel.

Either way it's the same concept of attempting to apply real-world physics to D&D. You're just asking to be disappointed.

[GloatingSwine]

I remember someone on these very forums who argued, with all seriousness, that Dora The Explorer was a deity-tier character because she could pull the sun out of the sky.

Never try and fight a toon.

[Lord Raziere]

I remember someone on these very forums who argued, with all seriousness, that Dora The Explorer was a deity-tier character because she could pull the sun out of the sky.

Yeah, the problem with these sorts of thing when you get into things like tone and other such things, this can rapidly become incredibly subjective.

like the whole current power scale stuff Vs battle debaters use is completely made up. I could probably make up an alternate power level system where cartoons are on the bottom and the weakest because they're not serious or consistent, and that power goes up the more serious, consistent and logical those powers are. which would mean things like supers and cartoons would be the weakest because of their lack of consistency, while more grounded universes would simply make them unable to do their wild inconsistent things because of their rules being stronger and unable to be defied, thus a hard sci-fi universe would be stronger than any universe where you can break any laws of physics you want, because the hard-sci-fi combatant would be made up of physics that would be too hard for them to break.

but then again, people like their spectacle and big feats of strength/speed/whatever, so I doubt anyone would go along with it.

[BloodSquirrel]

The transitive property is my least favorite part of any versus battle. I think the best example is the mortal kombat argument that came up a few times where the basic line of dialogue goes "Kombatant A can deflect bullets as seen in this cinematic. Therefore every kombatant is fast enough to deflect bullets or else they wouldnt be able to compete."

There's nothing wrong with this logic in and of itself. There are a lot of series, especially shonen battle manga, which use scaling against other characters as their primary means to establish how strong a character is.

The problem is that when you combine it with all of Versus Debates' worst habits and tendencies like ignoring context, focusing on extreme outliers, taking character statements too literally, and making a lot of arbitrary assumptions to get the highest numbers possible out of any calc it can act as a bull**** magnifier.

Kind of like how people will ignore the fact that Nintendo games run on cartoon physics where a "galaxy" can be a handful of planets each of which would fit in your average Texan's back yard, ignore the fact that Nintendo games have zero pretense to having any sort of continuity or canon, ignore the fact that a lot of powers do what the powers do and can't be assumed to just be raw power that can be used in arbitrary ways, refuse to do any basic sanity checking at any point, and then take one feat from one game to "prove" that Nintendo characters are all galaxy busters.

like the whole current power scale stuff Vs battle debaters use is completely made up. I could probably make up an alternate power level system where cartoons are on the bottom and the weakest because they're not serious or consistent, and that power goes up the more serious, consistent and logical those powers are. which would mean things like supers and cartoons would be the weakest because of their lack of consistency, while more grounded universes would simply make them unable to do their wild inconsistent things because of their rules being stronger and unable to be defied, thus a hard sci-fi universe would be stronger than any universe where you can break any laws of physics you want, because the hard-sci-fi combatant would be made up of physics that would be too hard for them to break.

The problem there is more that people are making a lot of leaps of logic.

Case in point: Celestia from MLP can change night into day. Okay, cool. Except that if you're the kind of clown who writes versus wiki articles, then your first assumption there is that she's doing this by literally using telekinesis to move the sun (which is the size of our sun) around the Equestria. And if she can move the sun, she could obviously use that same power in direct combat.

Does she actually do anything like that, ever, at any point? No, of course not. But rather than making the reasonable assumption that a kid's show which does not make any pretense to having a hard magic system that explains its rules to you might just give a character a power which specifically does that one thing and nothing else, you make a bunch of baseless assumptions about what mechanism the power works off of and extrapolate from there.

And never mind that you can't even make the basic physics of this make sense. How does a sun which is millions of times the mass of a planet orbit around it? And how does it do so at the fraction of c it would need to move around 900 million km a day? You can't even construct a functional physical model of how this works, and yet you want to do physics calculations off of it and use them to declare that your character has "multi-stellar" striking power?

You can absolutely take toons seriously and debate using the feats as demonstrated, people just aren't interesting in doing that. They're interested in constructing Rube Goldberg calculations that place them at Triple Double Omniverse Class S++ level power.

[animorte]

The problem there is more that people are making a lot of leaps of logic.

Case in point: Celestia from MLP can change night into day. Okay, cool. Except that if you're the kind of clown who writes versus wiki articles, then your first assumption there is that she's doing this by literally using telekinesis to move the sun (which is the size of our sun) around the Equestria. And if she can move the sun, she could obviously use that same power in direct combat.

Reminds me of the battle when Rainbow Dash wrecked Starscream (Transformers).

[GloatingSwine]

Reminds me of the battle when Rainbow Dash wrecked Starscream (Transformers).

To be fair that is only one step up from wrecking Waspinator. And the universe hates Waspinator.

[Lord Torath]

Hee heh, boobies.

Blue footed ones, no less!

My biggest Vs Battle pet peeve is when people take a travel speed and say they can fight and react at that speed. Its so frustrating because everyone should be able to understand this. A plane travels hundreds of kilometers per hour. That doesn't mean pilots have super insane reaction speeds. There's just nearly nothing in the sky for them to hit.

Counter Point: Hammy the Squirrel on Mach 6 energy drink. Clearly strolling along faster than the speed of light, apparently able to slide air molecules out of the way without creating new and exciting subatomic particles or vaporizing the neighborhood, and strong enough to accelerate massive physical objects from stationary to faster than light and back to stationary again (the gnome trap).

[Prime32]

Yeah, the problem with these sorts of thing when you get into things like tone and other such things, this can rapidly become incredibly subjective.

like the whole current power scale stuff Vs battle debaters use is completely made up. I could probably make up an alternate power level system where cartoons are on the bottom and the weakest because they're not serious or consistent, and that power goes up the more serious, consistent and logical those powers are. which would mean things like supers and cartoons would be the weakest because of their lack of consistency, while more grounded universes would simply make them unable to do their wild inconsistent things because of their rules being stronger and unable to be defied, thus a hard sci-fi universe would be stronger than any universe where you can break any laws of physics you want, because the hard-sci-fi combatant would be made up of physics that would be too hard for them to break.

but then again, people like their spectacle and big feats of strength/speed/whatever, so I doubt anyone would go along with it.

There was a Shonen Jump videogame which divided its cast into Comedy/Drama/Power or something like that, in a rock-paper-scissors system.

Because "Bugs Bunny can do anything as long as it's funny" cuts both ways. Normally the humour comes from Bugs punishing his opponent for their arrogance, and the audience laughing at their reactions. But if the opponent is a weirdo who actually enjoys getting pranked by Bugs, then Bugs becomes the butt of the the joke and he loses. Or if he's fighting an extremely tragic and sympathetic character (say, a little girl dying of cancer), then he can't win since that would make him the bad guy.

[Bartmanhomer]

There was a Shonen Jump videogame which divided its cast into Comedy/Drama/Power or something like that, in a rock-paper-scissors system.

Because "Bugs Bunny can do anything as long as it's funny" cuts both ways. Normally the humour comes from Bugs punishing his opponent for their arrogance, and the audience laughing at their reactions. But if the opponent is a weirdo who actually enjoys getting pranked by Bugs, then Bugs becomes the butt of the the joke and he loses. Or if he's fighting an extremely tragic and sympathetic character (say, a little girl dying of cancer), then he can't win since that would make him the bad guy.

I don't understand that rule at all. Also, I don't see Bugs Bunny as a fighter at all.

[Willie the Duck]

I don't understand that rule at all. Also, I don't see Bugs Bunny as a fighter at all.

In his original incarnation (the Looney Toons and Merrie Melodies shorts) most of the time he is placed in direct conflict with hunters, wild-west gunslingers, buzzards, witches, bulls, Tasmanian devils, mobsters or monsters who want to kill or kill and eat him.

[Bartmanhomer]

In his original incarnation (the Looney Toons and Merrie Melodies shorts) most of the time he is placed in direct conflict with hunters, wild-west gunslingers, buzzards, witches, bulls, Tasmanian devils, mobsters or monsters who want to kill or kill and eat him.

Ok. That explains everything.

[GloatingSwine]

There was a Shonen Jump videogame which divided its cast into Comedy/Drama/Power or something like that, in a rock-paper-scissors system.

Because "Bugs Bunny can do anything as long as it's funny" cuts both ways. Normally the humour comes from Bugs punishing his opponent for their arrogance, and the audience laughing at their reactions. But if the opponent is a weirdo who actually enjoys getting pranked by Bugs, then Bugs becomes the butt of the the joke and he loses. Or if he's fighting an extremely tragic and sympathetic character (say, a little girl dying of cancer), then he can't win since that would make him the bad guy.

It's important to recognise that Bugs is a trickster archetype. He's not necessarily a "good guy", the trickster often stands with humanity but not always.

Also he has demonstrated authorial control of reality, which is why absolutely nobody stands a chance of victory in a vs match with him, because even if it looks like you won it would just pan out to reveal he was the author of the story and so was actually the victor all along.

[awa]

It's important to recognise that Bugs is a trickster archetype. He's not necessarily a "good guy", the trickster often stands with humanity but not always.

Also he has demonstrated authorial control of reality, which is why absolutely nobody stands a chance of victory in a vs match with him, because even if it looks like you won it would just pan out to reveal he was the author of the story and so was actually the victor all along.

But that's the thing buggy bunny wins when it is funny for him to win, and sometimes its more funny that he loses. In that case he loses.

[Lord Raziere]

But that's the thing buggy bunny wins when it is funny for him to win, and sometimes its more funny that he loses. In that case he loses.

So, in that case pit any cartoon character an ordinary goomba unaware of their existence, watch as those characters try to goof on them only for the goomba to mr. magoo through everything they try, instant hilarity and loss for the cartoons.

[Traab]

So, in that case pit any cartoon character an ordinary goomba unaware of their existence, watch as those characters try to goof on them only for the goomba to mr. magoo through everything they try, instant hilarity and loss for the cartoons.

Pretty sure ive seen cartoons like that where bugs or whatever main character is trying his hardest to make the target laugh or react or whatever and gets progressively more and more stressed and exhausted as it goes on till they pull off some insane thing, get no reaction and collapse. Only for said target to start chuckling at some random event that happened that doesnt compare. Cue freakout as bugs throws a tantrum as the final punchline of the sketch.

[137beth]

LibraryOrge could be banned on the grounds of attempting to impersonate a mod, or at least forced into a name change, so defeat guaranteed either way.

May I also put this part of the conversation in my extended sig?

[No brains]

The greatest limiter on Bugs Bunny's power is whether or not he has seen something done in a toothpaste ad once.

[137beth]

So, in that case pit any cartoon character an ordinary goomba unaware of their existence, watch as those characters try to goof on them only for the goomba to mr. magoo through everything they try, instant hilarity and loss for the cartoons.

Well, if Bugs has his power to draw and erase the world like he does in Duck Amuck, could he just erase the Goomba? Or draw a plumber right on top of the goomba?

[Lord Raziere]

Well, if Bugs has his power to draw and erase the world like he does in Duck Amuck, could he just erase the Goomba? Or draw a plumber right on top of the goomba?

But would it be funny to erase him or make a third new plumber on top of him? sure he could do such a pragmatic and straightforward plan theoretically but by the laws of comedic irony, the more likely it is go wrong the more simple and straightforward it is, much like how if he tried to shoot an orphan with a gun, the bullet would find a way to miss, ricochet and pierce Bugs Bunny in the head to comedically make him a ghost dragged down to whatever cartoon afterlife he'd get punished in for doing so- a kind of instant narrative karma. a more dramatic or serious character might suffer a karmic retribution for such an act down the line, and the darker and more serious things get the less likely karma exists, but for a comedy cartoon character, karma is a living force of their existence that will make any repercussions pretty much instant, dramatic and probably explosive even if no one ever knows they did it.

similarly an unaware goomba who has done no harm to anyone and especially not Bugs? Bugs Bunny might find the very pencil turning upon him in some absurd manner, bending out of the way to refuse erasing the goomba or pulling itself away from drawing a plumber. his power relies a lot on the cartoon shenanigans being in some way deserved towards the target in question. pursuers who use greater force of arms against a character always end up losing, because the sympathy of Bugs Bunny is implicit in who he is-a bunny, normal a harmless cute animal that we're inclined to not shoot, and therefore a hunter trying to shoot him opens themselves to all kinds of comedy shenanigans happening to them. similarly, if you define Bugs Bunny as this all powerful reality-warper, you define him as the predator in a similar manner, and there is a reason why all the butt of the jokes tend to cats, big strong guys and so on in in looney tunes cartoons: Tom is the predator to Jerry (and the dog that pursues Tom gets to be the butt of Tom's shenanigans in turn, its all relative), Yosemite Sam is a tough cowboy with guns, Elmer Fudd is a hunter with a gun.

in such classic cartoons, the stronger you are, the more the butt of the joke you are, the more room for the weaker party to outwit you with funny shenanigans and subvert expectations of what usually logically happens with absurdity. there is nothing stronger than all powerful magical reality warper. in cartoon terms, that makes Bugs bunny incredibly weak to whatever a seemingly harmless thing thats being picked upon by him does. if a cartoon mouse can defeat a cartoon cat, why not a mere goomba defeat the bunny-god of cartoon tricksters?

it matters not what Bugs Bunny does, if he is being the aggressor against someone weaker, or more tragic, or whatever else of the nature, he has already lost. for there is nothing funny in Tom actually getting to eat Jerry- thats just a cat eating a mouse, mundane, common place, not notable, and thus will never happen in their world.

[The Glyphstone]

And now I'm getting flashbacks to the days of "X vs Warhammmer 40,000" versus threads, usually some overpowered Shonen anime or mecha story...

[Eldan]

Hey, I liked the debate about whether TTGL can Spiral Energy Chaos to death or if that would just feed them.

[The Glyphstone]

That one was particularly bad to me because it was the versus personification of unstoppable force against immovable object. There wasn't really much to debate other than 'uh uh yes it can' versus 'nuh uh no it can't'...

Now, that brief period when we pitted the Culture against 40K was interesting to me, because the Culture had a lot more nuance and potential vulnerabilities to go alongside its utterly overpowered nature.

[Eldan]

We've seem different discussions then. I just remember "Culture gridfires the entire ward, then solves all other problems in 40k in about a week."

[Traab]

Interesting thought about it has to be funny is, funny to who? The guy getting his gun barrel bent through a rabbit hole till it points at the back of his head sure isnt laughing, most of the time BUGS isnt laughing, so we have to consider that so long as somebody somewhere would chuckle at whatever bugs does, it can work. After all, while some of his shorts were incredibly hilarious, I dont laugh at all of them, so its hard to quantify the exact number of people who are entertained before an action can happen. And how thats all sorts of timey whimey bs because something has to be funny before he can do it but how does he know its funny if he doesnt do it first and see if it gets laughs? Can we get The Doctor involved in this to help explain?

[BloodSquirrel]

I'd like to point out that Bugs Bunny being the author of one cartoon that he's in does not mean that he's the author of all cartoons that he's in, or the versus battle for that matter. After all, there are plenty of series where one episode or another is framed as a character telling a story. That doesn't make said character omnipotent; it means that there's a story within a story being told.

This is another one of those things that is a lot less messy if you're a bit more conservative with your assumptions.

[Forum Explorer]

We've seem different discussions then. I just remember "Culture gridfires the entire ward, then solves all other problems in 40k in about a week."

That one got a slightly interesting crossover fanfic going though which is a bit of an accomplishment for a vs battle thread. It even got me to read one of the Culture books, which I actually found pretty disappointing.

My favorite was probably Imperium of Man vs Star Wars which I think was the first one, took something like 150 pages to resolve, and ended up being pretty solidly in the Imperium of Man's favor once it was pointed out that Star Wars capital ships frequently get destroyed by snub fighters and are apparently made out of paper mache.

[Peelee]

That one got a slightly interesting crossover fanfic going though which is a bit of an accomplishment for a vs battle thread. It even got me to read one of the Culture books, which I actually found pretty disappointing.

My favorite was probably Imperium of Man vs Star Wars which I think was the first one, took something like 150 pages to resolve, and ended up being pretty solidly in the Imperium of Man's favor once it was pointed out that Star Wars capital ships frequently get destroyed by snub fighters and are apparently made out of paper mache.

"frequently" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there, and even when they do go down by snub fighters, it's more due to constant waves of heavy weaponry than any skrt of paper mache weaknesses.