OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread

[The_Weirdo]

It seems likely that Hilgya is actually MORE real than I am. Certainly she generates much more discussion on the internet than I do.

Oh, no, you, Dion, exist. I'm unconvinced Brian does. He'll have to prove his existence to me if we are to keep debating.

[KorvinStarmast]

We twigged to it being less disruptive than arguing about morality without referring to politics or religion, and less effort than derailing onto Star Wars.

Nested logic, works for me.

He'll have to prove his existence to me if we are to keep debating.

If you ever start debating, that will be an interesting day.

Hilgya is exiting, stage right, for the time being. I think the action is going to switch back to Durkon in the next strip.

[The_Weirdo]

If you ever start debating, that will be an interesting day.

Relax. You exist too.

[KorvinStarmast]

Relax. You exist too.

I never doubted it. I believe in Dion. (And that's a veiled reference to an old Peter Pan trope vis a vis Tinkerbell ... memory foggy).
/me claps hands

[The_Weirdo]

I never doubted it. I believe in Dion. (And that's a veiled reference to an old Peter Pan trope vis a vis Tinkerbell ... memory foggy).
/me claps hands

I don't believe in brian 333. I also think Keltest may be a cell phone thrown by a guy.

[D.One]

Since Logann has, two strips ago, called the kind of axe in the hands of the guards "battleaxe", and his axe is quite different, can we agree in what kind of axe he's using?

I'd say Dwarven Waraxe, but the design is a bit different from the Dwarven Waraxe from the PHB 3.5, and more akin to the Greataxe. However, we've seem him using it with one hand only, which shouldn't be possible for a Greataxe.

[littlebum2002]

I think it's pretty obvious that since "casting a spell on any creature" is a violation that turns you to stone, said stone-turning would happen BEFORE the spell was completed. (As someone pointed out, the fact that counter-spelling exists means that it must be obvious which spell you are casting before the casting of that spell is completed)


That being said, what about command word or spell trigger items? Using such an item on someone would indeed turn you to stone, but since you've already said the word, wouldn't the item still activate? It doesn't say that all your items turn to stone as well.

[Dion]

Since Logann has, two strips ago, called the kind of axe in the hands of the guards "battleaxe", and his axe is quite different, can we agree in what kind of axe he's using?

I'd say Dwarven Waraxe, but the design is a bit different from the Dwarven Waraxe from the PHB 3.5, and more akin to the Greataxe. However, we've seem him using it with one hand only, which shouldn't be possible for a Greataxe.

Dwarven Urgrosh, obviously.

[D.One]

Dwarven Urgrosh, obviously.

Doesn't fit the image, either, and also Urgrosh is a double weapon with a spear end.

[Dion]

Doesn't fit the image, either, and also Urgrosh is a double weapon with a spear end.

Maybe it’s magically enchanted to look non-urgroshy?

[D.One]

Maybe it’s magically enchanted to look non-urgroshy?

That would be urgrosh mistake.

[Dion]

That would be urgrosh mistake.

Didn’t Thog carry an axe similar to Ivan’s? Or was Thog’s axe two handed? (Or am I thinking of Therkla?)

Aside: According to the internet, the greeks called a two-bitted axe a labrys, and the romans called it a bipennis.

[D.One]

Didn’t Thog carry an axe similar to Ivan’s? Or was Thog’s axe two handed? (Or am I thinking of Therkla?)

Ivan had an axe? (I mean, he's a dwarf, so of course he did, but still...)

[The_Weirdo]

Didn’t Thog carry an axe similar to Ivan’s? Or was Thog’s axe two handed? (Or am I thinking of Therkla?)

Aside: According to the internet, the greeks called a two-bitted axe a labrys, and the romans called it a bipennis.

Labrys is actually a robotic high school student. With an axe.

[Dion]

Ivan had an axe? (I mean, he's a dwarf, so of course he did, but still...)

Sorry, I meant Logann. I meant to write “Didn’t Thog carry an axe similar to Logann’s axe?”

But then I read that the axe was called a “bipennis”, and I felt it was so important to post that helpful knowledge that I failed to proofread.

[Peelee]

I think it's pretty obvious that since "casting a spell on any creature" is a violation that turns you to stone, said stone-turning would happen BEFORE the spell was completed. (As someone pointed out, the fact that counter-spelling exists means that it must be obvious which spell you are casting before the casting of that spell is completed)


That being said, what about command word or spell trigger items? Using such an item on someone would indeed turn you to stone, but since you've already said the word, wouldn't the item still activate? It doesn't say that all your items turn to stone as well.

I don't see any reason why it wouldn't function similarly to Xykon's traps.

[D.One]

Sorry, I meant Logann. I meant to write “Didn’t Thog carry an axe similar to Logann’s axe?”

I understood that was probably your intent, but couldn't really let the joke slide away

That said, given Logann uses the axe with one or two hands, and given it doesn't have a spear end, it should be a Battleaxe or a Dwarven Waraxe, I think.

(I don't really know the kind of axe Ivan's axe is, however...)

[Pampukin]

Like you wouldn't do it to protect your child's soul...

Im still unconvinced this would work. The gods said they cash all mortal souls and reset outsiders memories when they pull the plug, being on another plane saves you from that how exactly? I feel like the plane shift plan worked for the vampire clerics because they arent a mortal soul, but another "thing" and thus would only get their memories reset while in Hels plane. Otherwise there would be at least some mortals still existing from past creations that where in a plane other than the material when it was rebooted, that still remember their realities, right? Or am I confused on the whole outsiders thing?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Im still unconvinced this would work. The gods said they cash all mortal souls and reset outsiders memories when they pull the plug, being on another plane saves you from that how exactly? I feel like the plane shift plan worked for the vampire clerics because they arent a mortal soul, but another "thing" and thus would only get their memories reset while in Hels plane. Otherwise there would be at least some mortals still existing from past creations that where in a plane other than the material when it was rebooted, that still remember their realities, right? Or am I confused on the whole outsiders thing?

It would absolutely not work. A cleric would depend on their god for sustenance, and a god would be way too busy to grant spells every "morning" while hiding from the Snarl and ensuring they themselves don't starve. Heck, we already doubted if Hel could preserve her vampires, and they are at least, as you point out, not exactly alive, and of course she'd have a massive pool of new power to pull from. A single cleric, trying to survive for however long it takes for the gods to recreate the universe (which could be centuries, or millennia, for all she knows)? Not a chance. And that's before going in to how terrible it would be for Kudzu to grow up in such a scenario.

But it is very much in-character for Hilgya to think it is that easy, since she's obviously incapable of predicting or accepting consequences for her actions.

Grey Wolf

[The_Weirdo]

And that's before going in to how terrible it would be for Kudzu to grow up in such a scenario.

Worse than Hel?

[Squire Doodad]

As a rule of thumb, anything that involves hiding out on another plane and waiting several centuries to several millenia before heading back is a bad idea.

[Aquillion]

Otherwise there would be at least some mortals still existing from past creations that where in a plane other than the material when it was rebooted, that still remember their realities, right? Or am I confused on the whole outsiders thing?

It's possible there are in fact mortals from past creations, and we simply haven't seen any. By definition most such survivors would tend to be the sort who are likely to skip town and lay low when there's a conflict.

Generally speaking I don't think OOTS gods are omnipotent or have absolute power over their followers - they could, notionally, lose to a mortal or to something they created (if the Snarl can kill them, so can humans; we have one less quiddity, but still more than any god.) This would imply that the gods can't just arbitrarily, repeatedly, and safely declare the most powerful survivors of every single world they create to be dead. Eventually they're going to try that and the top-level wizard is gonna say "no, you die instead."

So my guess is that when there's high-level casters skipping town, the gods allow it (and maybe set up barriers to keep them out of the new world or something.)

[The_Weirdo]

As a rule of thumb, anything that involves hiding out on another plane and waiting several centuries to several millenia before heading back is a bad idea.

Is it a worse idea than Hel? Because that's the alternative as seen...

[Squire Doodad]

It's possible there are in fact mortals from past creations, and we simply haven't seen any. By definition most such survivors would tend to be the sort who are likely to skip town and lay low when there's a conflict.

That suggests there is a significant breeding population of people from past universes, and parts of a small town's worth that is literally older than the current world, possibly twice as old. That could happen, but realistically any scenario in which that was in place you'd have either all of the people dying off really quickly from griffin attacks (no divine clerics means limited healing) or from one clever high-level mage decides to go an test out a plane shift and revealing to the gods that they missed something.

It is hypothetically possible, but the odds of it working are next to none. I guess someone on the least dangerous of the other planes that isn't filled with outsiders could work, but it would require ridiculous planning and croodination from a huge amount of people. It'd be like if the Draketooths were the entirety of Sandsege and grew their own food and healed their own wounds without any clerical magic. Also hiding from both the Snarl and if they manage to endure the interim period, all the gods.

[The_Weirdo]

That suggests there is a significant breeding population of people from past universes, and parts of a small town's worth that is literally older than the current world, possibly twice as old. That could happen, but realistically any scenario in which that was in place you'd have either all of the people dying off really quickly from griffin attacks (no divine clerics means limited healing) or from one clever high-level mage decides to go an test out a plane shift and revealing to the gods that they missed something.

It is hypothetically possible, but the odds of it working are next to none. I guess someone on the least dangerous of the other planes that isn't filled with outsiders could work, but it would require ridiculous planning and croodination from a huge amount of people. It'd be like if the Draketooths were the entirety of Sandsege and grew their own food and healed their own wounds without any clerical magic. Also hiding from both the Snarl and if they manage to endure the interim period, all the gods.

Look, I agree with you in principle, but it would be natural for anyone with access to a Plane Shift to bail with their son, especially if the alternative was certain Hel for their son.

[Rrmcklin]

Vendettas against entire families have been the norm for... (etc.).



Maybe you only exist in my mind.



Like you wouldn't do it to protect your child's soul...



And the individuals will never have to care.

1) Are you really appealing to the "norm" for what's right?

2) I actually agree with you that the dismissal of Hilgya being forced into marriage is tedious at this point. I really don't understand why people keep bringing that up as a possibility.

3) Perhaps, but let's not pretend that's what Hilgya's doing. Her first priority in leaving is because she's bored, not because she's worried about Kudzu.

4) True, but there are a lot of things that individuals technically don't have to care about that still can, and should, be held as black marks against them.

[Squire Doodad]

Look, I agree with you in principle, but it would be natural for anyone with access to a Plane Shift to bail with their son, especially if the alternative was certain Hel for their son.

I think it's that you agree with what I am saying but disagree with me on principle.

Plane Shifting will be better than Hel right away, though realistically it will have virtually no effect. You can't blame Hilgya for wanting to Plane Shift out, that doesn't stop it from working. Similarly, just because it seems like a logical choice doesn't mean that staying and helping out as a mid-level dwarven cleric (especially in this fight) is more likely to save Kudzu and yourself than plane shifting out will.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It's possible there are in fact mortals from past creations, and we simply haven't seen any.

We went through this a few threads ago. In the end, we created and populated the Far Realms.

[Aquillion]

That suggests there is a significant breeding population of people from past universes, and parts of a small town's worth that is literally older than the current world, possibly twice as old. That could happen, but realistically any scenario in which that was in place you'd have either all of the people dying off really quickly from griffin attacks (no divine clerics means limited healing) or from one clever high-level mage decides to go an test out a plane shift and revealing to the gods that they missed something.

It is hypothetically possible, but the odds of it working are next to none. I guess someone on the least dangerous of the other planes that isn't filled with outsiders could work, but it would require ridiculous planning and croodination from a huge amount of people. It'd be like if the Draketooths were the entirety of Sandsege and grew their own food and healed their own wounds without any clerical magic. Also hiding from both the Snarl and if they manage to endure the interim period, all the gods.

Remember how many worlds the gods have created previously. The chance of it happening in any one world is low, but as the size of the universe increases, the improbable becomes probable. I feel that if it's possible to escape and stay alive afterwards, someone would have done it already.

[Squire Doodad]

We went through this a few threads ago. In the end, we created and populated the Far Realms.

Sorry, when was this? I actually want to read about this now.