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2012-08-18, 02:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Refluffing is ok with me - I'd rather not have to do so, but it occurs sometimes, especially when the game devs and I have a different vision. I take issue with the fact that this is a mechanical ability of the Rogue class. Fluff != mechanical abilities. As we're still in a beta, and I see this as a pretty simple fix, I'm giving feedback that I believe will result in a more robust game. I'd love to have a system that I can pick up without having to doctor before play.
It's not a substantial problem on its own, but its indicative of a developmental mindset that I find strange. Either the developers didn't believe that players would want to run anything but the most stereotypical Rogue, they don't want players to run anything but the most stereotypical Rogue, or they made a mistake and it should be a Background instead of a class feature.Last edited by Menteith; 2012-08-18 at 02:39 PM.
There is the moral of all human tales;
'Tis but the same rehearsal of the past.
First freedom and then Glory - when that fails,
Wealth, vice, corruption - barbarism at last.
And History, with all her volumes vast,
Hath but one page...
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2012-08-18, 02:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Thieves' Cant has a specific mechanical effect: The capacity to speak, write in, and understand speech and writing in the language of the criminal underworld. This is much harder to refluff than something like +1d6 damage when flanking, and while you can always have it be learned in counter espionage agents, or polyglots who also know a bunch of other languages, or people who are sneaky and happened to have a friend who knew it and so learned to speak it with a friend, or whatever, it still presents an obstacle to a whole bunch of characters and archetypes, as it gives them an ability they simply shouldn't have.
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2012-08-18, 02:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Last edited by ThiagoMartell; 2012-08-18 at 02:53 PM.
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2012-08-18, 02:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
"Rogues have little in common with one another. Some are stealthy thieves. Others are silver-tongued tricksters. Still others are scouts, infiltrators, spies, diplomats, or thugs. What they do share is versatility, adaptability, and resourcefulness. In general, rogues are skilled at getting what others don't want them to get: entrance into a locked treasure vault, safe passage past a deadly trap, secret battle plans, a guard's trust, or some random person's pocket money."
"Some rogues are officially inducted into an organized fellowship of rogues or "guild of thieves". Some are self-taught; others learned their skills from independent mentors....Rogues do not see each other as fellows unless they happen to be members of the same guild or students of the same mentors."
Yup, that's some pretty binding fluff right there that limits options.Last edited by Menteith; 2012-08-18 at 02:58 PM.
There is the moral of all human tales;
'Tis but the same rehearsal of the past.
First freedom and then Glory - when that fails,
Wealth, vice, corruption - barbarism at last.
And History, with all her volumes vast,
Hath but one page...
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2012-08-18, 02:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
It's largely a matter of degree - knowing a secret language is a completely different matter than being marginally better than most at dealing with traps. Added to that, you can simply not take the Disable Device skill for a pirate, swashbuckler, or whatever, and as such not actually be any better at finding and disarming traps - there's an easy way to opt out. Trap Sense, meanwhile, pretty much comes down to dodging better while surprised, which they also have with Uncanny Dodge, and which makes a lot of sense for basically any of the stealthy, agile archetypes Rogue works for.
That said, I'd still rather Trapfinding be handled as some sort of rogue bonus feat where there are other options than as a class feature.I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2012-08-18, 02:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-08-18, 03:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
As the sum total of Rogue fluff from the PHB fits on half a page, and not all the text on p49 is related to fluff, I feel comfortable disagreeing with you. Fluff for the Rogue exists in 3.5, but it's certainly not the significant amount you're making it out to be. There are spells in the PHB which take up more text than the entirety of Rogue flavor text. Water Bear was correct in saying that the PHB doesn't have much fluff, and that none of it ties you to a criminal background.
Last edited by Menteith; 2012-08-18 at 03:13 PM.
There is the moral of all human tales;
'Tis but the same rehearsal of the past.
First freedom and then Glory - when that fails,
Wealth, vice, corruption - barbarism at last.
And History, with all her volumes vast,
Hath but one page...
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2012-08-18, 03:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-08-18, 03:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Last edited by Menteith; 2012-08-18 at 07:45 PM.
There is the moral of all human tales;
'Tis but the same rehearsal of the past.
First freedom and then Glory - when that fails,
Wealth, vice, corruption - barbarism at last.
And History, with all her volumes vast,
Hath but one page...
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2012-08-18, 03:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Yea I don't like the fact that it does have...implications that ties the character to the criminal world.
But I fail to see why the DM and player just can't agree to waive it. I know its best to have it in the background but is it so critical that I just can't agree with my players to "forget" that its there and let them have a different style of rogue?
I guess I just don't see it as a big deal.
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2012-08-18, 03:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
It's not a huge deal on its own, and if it's kept this way in the final version, I'd probably houserule it into a background. But since we're still in beta, doesn't it make more sense for them to simply fix it now, rather than officially having something like this in the game?
This whole thing sort of ballooned out of my statement a few pages back about how I don't like it when the mechanics of a class are welded to the fluff that WotC writes. As another example of this, and to get off the Thieves' Cant topic, I dislike how in 3.5, Bards can't be lawful (because clearly, a Savage Bard who acts as the center of a tribe and preserves their oral history couldn't possibly have a lawful nature). Do anyone think that Alignment is going to have a mechanical impact on the game, whether through spells like Detect Evil and Holy Word, or through feat/class/background selection?Last edited by Menteith; 2012-08-18 at 03:51 PM.
There is the moral of all human tales;
'Tis but the same rehearsal of the past.
First freedom and then Glory - when that fails,
Wealth, vice, corruption - barbarism at last.
And History, with all her volumes vast,
Hath but one page...
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2012-08-18, 03:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
I don't see why the rogue can't teach the cant to everyone else in the group, over the course of a few levels maybe, and then they have their own secret sign language that they can use to communicate with each other in the presence of others. The rogue didn't have to learn it from other thieves, they could have just made it up.
Dubhshlaine, Elf Mage, in Eberron D&D 4e
DM for Feiticeiro's Ergodic Dungeon (Always Open!), In-Game
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2012-08-18, 04:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
It also doesn't have to be a literal language, but more the skill of hidden meanings and such. Like, when you say you're in the "waste management" business, that means something completely different when you're talking to someone in the mob. Any king of roguish character might have a reason for wanting to talk this way, so he can discuss what he's doing in the open, rather than looking suspicious and whispering secrets all the time. Other rogues would know what a rogue was talking about, even if they were from different areas of the world and learned in different ways, just by knowing what to listen for, to look for the meaning behind the words instead of just the words themselves.
I don't know if this is what they meant in their description of the Thieves' Cant, though, and if it is they should probably make it more clear.5e Homebrew: Death Knight (Class), Kensai (Monk Subclass)Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.
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2012-08-18, 04:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
I supposed it has a limited scope: while discussing methods of breaking and entering is easy using the cant, a theological debate is nigh impossible. That would make sense to me, at least.
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2012-08-18, 04:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
For my 2cp, I think having Thieve's Cant as a class feature is silly, it should be a language, learnable like any other. A fighter could be a thief, part of the guild, and a rogue could be an honorable scout for the royal military. Maybe the rogue could instead get a bonus language, and mention they normally learn code languages.
"Sometimes, we’re heroes. Sometimes, we shoot other people right in the face for money."
-Shadowrun 4e, Runner's Companion
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2012-08-18, 05:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
I keep seeing a lot of archetypes thrown out that "don't make sense" with Thieves' Cant, but at least so far all of them either a) aren't really a big enough concept to be a "class" (IE: Trapsmith is a crafting skill) or b) would fit much better into a different class (IE: How is a scout anything but a Ranger, or maybe a Fighter?) or c) aren't exactly far fetched to have Thieves' Cant anyways. (IE: Bounty hunter. How do you find criminals the law can't find? By talking to other criminals)
5e Homebrew: Death Knight (Class), Kensai (Monk Subclass)Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.
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2012-08-18, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
I don't see how Thieve's Cant changes the game at all...
Back in 3.5 I never saw a game become broken or damaged because the Druid's secrete language -_-;;;
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2012-08-18, 05:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
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2012-08-18, 05:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
@ AgentPaper;
I can imagine characters that I'd like to play, that I'd like to use the Rogue class for, that wouldn't logically know Thieves' Cant. It is possible that I could forcibly change around a character's backstory to account for the class mechanic, but I'd much rather be allowed free reign on my character's background. I don't have a whole lot left to say about the ability; I don't think you and I are going to come to an agreement regarding it. You know why I feel the way I do, and I know why you stick to your position. We simply disagree.
Again, the whole thing started a few pages back when a single line from one of my posts (I dislike it when crunch is shackled to fluff, example of this is Thieves' Cant) was quoted and contested. I attempted to clarify my position, and it went back and forth about that for a few pages.There is the moral of all human tales;
'Tis but the same rehearsal of the past.
First freedom and then Glory - when that fails,
Wealth, vice, corruption - barbarism at last.
And History, with all her volumes vast,
Hath but one page...
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2012-08-18, 05:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
If in 3.X they had just said "You must be this tall to ride" for the PrCs, or specifically "You need six levels before you can take a level in a PrC, unless a specific PrC says otherwise", all the early-entry shenanigans would have never happened.
Where do you think we learn how to do those things? YouTube. So yes, he learned from a book, or a private tutor.Jude P.
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2012-08-18, 06:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Thieves' Cant should certainly be a Background feature.
I find it odd to classify rogue-like archetypes under the banner "sneaky." Some swashbuckler/pirate types are pretty over-the-top flamboyant; the veritable antithesis of sneaky.
For what it's worth, this may be cultural clash. The USA tends to use sarcasm more than most cultures, and therefore may use it without intending offense where other cultures may see it as "demeaning."You can call me Draz.
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2012-08-18, 07:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Leverage: Hacker, Hitter, Grifter, Thief, and Mastermind. They would all know the Cant, but they would not all be Rogues on paper. It's not exactly the standard D&D genre (Hardisan and Ford would be difficult to stat up well in a game without computers or puppetmasters, though Ford could make a good Warlord) but it makes the point.
Now with half the calories!
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2012-08-18, 10:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Apologies if this has already been asked and answered elsewhere, but I just starting reading through the playtest rules today, and it seems that rogues can apply sneak attack damage whenever they get a hit, even if their target was fully aware of them and capable of defending themselves. Am I missing something, or is sneak attack just a flat damage boost?
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2012-08-18, 10:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2012-08-18, 11:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2012-08-19, 04:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Two points:
First, like mentioned, they need advantage on the attack roll.
Second, it is once per round.
I don't know how hard or easy it is to get advantage on the attack (since I lack a group of willing playtesters), but I would guess that the intention here is that the SA-bonus should not apply to every attack.
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2012-08-19, 05:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-08-19, 07:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
I thought about that Siegel, but those DMs can just act like its a dry season, no bounty currently there (unless its a plot point).
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2012-08-19, 08:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Just make one of the villains a bounty. They must have done something to get someone upset. Even if it's just a bunch of kobolds, you can have them be paying a certain amount per kobold head or something.
You would have to find a different motive for the person who put up the bounty than whoever's in charge of the law, since they would likely want the villain's head as well, or say that the bounty offers more money, or both.Dubhshlaine, Elf Mage, in Eberron D&D 4e
DM for Feiticeiro's Ergodic Dungeon (Always Open!), In-Game
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2012-08-19, 11:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Just rocked the latest playtest.
Sorcerers seem pretty OP, at least so far as combat goes. Heavy armour + martial weapons + casting + good melee + range. They can do it all except utility. Nothing could hit my 19 AC (with the Shield spell) Sorcalops as he destroyed everything at range and in melee with Ray of Frost and Shocking Grasp, never getting hit once, especially with the Fighter spamming Defender on me (and vice versa); it was awesome to effectively play as Golbez though.
In the meanwhile, he held the line with the Protector fighter tank for the Rogue to get massive one hit wonders with ranged sneak attacks, while our Warlock artillery Eldritch Blasted in the background. Throw in caltrops, ball bearings, choke point utilization, and use of the Defender feat between me and the Fighter and every combat was laughably trivial. I don't think we took any damage at all for the entire module; no cleric necessary.
Also the Soldier background is an obvious go to. Training in Spot; nuff said. The 5e Perception equivalent is as OP as its 4e incarnation. This was used a truly dizzying number of times.
That said, I really hate the lack of damage scaling for the spells. I'd like to see ability mod scaling.
Sorcerer DC/attack scaling with levels is also inane; literally 0 progression in the playtest levels, 1-5.Last edited by Surrealistik; 2012-08-19 at 11:42 AM.