[3.5e] Pure druid vs. Arcane Heirophant

[Edje]

This has been bugging me for a while, my dm has given me the option of rebuilding my level 8 druid into a 4drd/3wiz/1ArH after we stumbled across the class. I have had conflicing advice from various veterans that i know and was wondering which build is stronger overall.

For reference the Current Druid i am using:
Stats:
str -11
dex - 12
con - 18
int- 12
wis - 18
cha - 12
feat build i'm using is :
spell focus conjuration
augmented summoning
ashbound summoning
Natural spell

and the Arcane Heirophant i'm hypothetically building will have:
str - 11
dex -12
con -12
int - 18
wis - 18
cha - 12

Practiced spellcaster x2
able learner
spell focus conjuration
Augmented summoning
Natural spell
(flaws weak will, vulnerable)


So what character build will be more powerful?
(note: both will take dragon wild shape at 12th level, dm allowed it woot)

[Woodsman]

Whichever build gives you 9th-level casting, which I'm pretty sure is the straight druid.

[Eldariel]

Druid is more powerful. Losing 3 levels of Wildshape, Animal Companion and spellcasting (on both sides) really doesn't bode well. Early entry AH with Precocious Apprentice and Focused Specialist, taking only one level of Wizard, could be close. But as it stands, Druid wins hands down. Hell, you just got Large Wildshape.

[sonofzeal]

Arcane Heirophant isn't what I'd call "weak". It's one of the best MT-style PrCs around, and combined with the actual MT class can get you 9th level spells on both sides. Takes a while to get rolling, but worth it in the long run. It's also just plain cool.

[Melamoto]

Pure Druid wins in overall power, but not by enough to make Arcane Heirophant a bad choice. I'd still say it wouldn't be a bad idea, since you could support your allies with a range of spells. The only issue is weakened Wild Shape and Druid casting, which is more powerful, but you should really just pick which sounds more fun.

[sonofzeal]

Pure Druid wins in overall power, but not by enough to make Arcane Heirophant a bad choice. I'd still say it wouldn't be a bad idea, since you could support your allies with a range of spells. The only issue is weakened Wild Shape and Druid casting, which is more powerful, but you should really just pick which sounds more fun.

Wild Shape really isn't that much of a hit. Since the BAB/hp of the form is based on you, it's perfectly viable to stay Deinonychus/Fleshraker your whole carreer and never really feel the lost levels. Once you've got Polar Bear, your bases are pretty much covered.

As for spellcasting, well yes. But I'd say that the gains on the Wizard side are pretty awesome, as Wizard casting is generally pretty superior to Druid casting.

An Arcane Heirophant is going to be really weak at first, merely decent at mid level, and come into his own in the end game. If your game is level 12 or later, I'd say AH is not really any weaker than straight Druid.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Go Wild Elf, Druid 8/ Suel Arcanamach 2/ Arcane Heirophant 10, possibly replacing one AH level with a single level dip into Seeker of the Misty Isle. For your feats take Combat Casting, Natural Bond, Natural Spell, use the Otyugh Hole to gain Iron Will, and get Practiced Spellcaster at 9 and again at 12.

[Gnaeus]

I would look seriously at dropping 2 feats (able learner and one practiced spellcaster) for Natural Bond and Companion Spellbond. One of the areas where AH really excels is in making your companion virtually an extra party member. If you keep him at normal level (with Natural Bond) the companion benefits a lot from the addition of intelligence, Improved Evasion, and better natural armor. Follow that up with some shared buffs from both sides (Mage Armor+Barkskin+ Shield for example) and it isn't difficult for your pet to really be a superior tank.

What else is in your party? Arcane Hierophant is one of the small nerfs I use to weaken my Druids so the melee doesn't feel so bad, because it is a little weaker, but fun. If you have full casters in your party, AH will be weaker without early entry tricks.

[erikun]

If you're talking raw power, Druid 20 wins in the end. Full casting, full wildshape, full animal companion, etc.

On the other hand, Arcane Heirophant is a sexy choice. You end up a couple of levels behind for the Druid, but the Heirophant increases just about everything* you get with both classes, if I recall.

The major thing is that you'll need to decide what to do at level 16, if the game makes it that far. Druid 3/Wizard 3/Arcane Heirophant 10/Mystic Thurge 4 gives you 9th level spellcasting on both sides, but won't progress your animal companion or wildshape. Druid 7/Wizard 3/Arcane Heirophant get you 9th level Druid spellcasting and almost the full companion/wildshape*, but lower Wizard spellcasting.

* I don't really recall what the AH gives you, so I might be wrong about the wildshape bit.

[aje8]

Druid 20 is more powerful for the majority of the game. Better Wildshape, higher level Druid spells and better Animal Companion along with faster 9th level spells makes Druid 20 better for much of the game. At the high levels (~13+) AH will be equal cause of double 9ths and because Wizard casting will really increase in power. When the AH gets 9th level spells, AH will be stronger.

[Nate the Snake]

* I don't really recall what the AH gives you, so I might be wrong about the wildshape bit.

It progresses wild shape, but it is somewhat fuzzier on whether it gives you wild shape if you don't already have it.

It also progresses both classes' spellcasting, druid's animal companion, and wizard's familiar, plus it turns your animal companion into a familiar.

[nekomata2]

It also has the potentially nifty ability to cast spells through plants and animals...circumstantial, but still interesting.

[Edje]

It also has the potentially nifty ability to cast spells through plants and animals...circumstantial, but still interesting.

it makes the animal companion all the more powerfull

[*.*.*.*]

It's possible to get dual 9's quite easy, just take one level of wizard(or more if it floats your boat) and use precocious apprentice for a second level spell. Just remember to finish the build off with legacy champion

[sonofzeal]

It's possible to get dual 9's quite easy, just take one level of wizard(or more if it floats your boat) and use precocious apprentice for a second level spell. Just remember to finish the build off with legacy champion

Druid 3 / Wizard 3 / Arcane Heirophant 10 / Mystic Theurge 4 gets you dual 9's, nice and easy. You really don't have to jump through any hoops whatsoever.

[Edje]

Druid 3 / Wizard 3 / Arcane Heirophant 10 / Mystic Theurge 4 gets you dual 9's, nice and easy. You really don't have to jump through any hoops whatsoever.

actually ArH requires a bab of+4, in order to get this you need 4 drd / 3 wiz before you can take the class, as a result you can only get 9s in druid if you go to ArH to MT

[Thrice Dead Cat]

actually ArH requires a bab of+4, in order to get this you need 4 drd / 3 wiz before you can take the class, as a result you can only get 9s in druid if you go to ArH to MT

Right, so it's Wizard 3/Druid 3/MT2/AH 10/MT+2.

[Edje]

Right, so it's Wizard 3/Druid 3/MT2/AH 10/MT+2.

ah, but that will most defiantly screw me over as i level, gets behind on wildshape/familiar/companion something to consider though, geez if only ArH had 15 lvls

[Thrice Dead Cat]

ah, but that will most defiantly screw me over as i level, gets behind on wildshape/familiar/companion something to consider though, geez if only ArH had 15 lvls

If fractional BAB is game, then you don't have to worry as much about the hoop jumping, since Wizard 3/Druid 3 would then qualify.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

If fractional BAB is game, then you don't have to worry as much about the hoop jumping, since Wizard 3/Druid 3 would then qualify.

No, it doesn't. One level of MT would let you, however.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

No, it doesn't. One level of MT would let you, however.

This is what I get for doing basic math in my head. D'oh. They, still a hit to the animal companion, but, as has already been mentioned, Natural Bond (Complete Adventurer) should clear that up.

[Aquillion]

Like most Druid PRCs that are not Planar Shepard, pure Druid is stronger, which just shows how absurdly overpowered pure Druid is. Arcane Heirophant is still plenty strong.

[Devils_Advocate]

III. Doubt not the power of the Druid, for he is mighty.

V. Thou shalt not give up caster levels. Verily, this Commandment is like unto the first; but of such magnitude that it bore mentioning twice.

- The Ten Commandments of Optimization


To paraphrase Frank Trollman on the subject of theurge-type classes, "If the party Fighter gets a caster cohort, and his cohort has a caster cohort, the Fighter is bringing more magical power to the table than you are. As a Fighter."

Now, granted, Leadership is a decidedly overpowered feat. And it should be noted that at high levels, keeping your Leadership score high enough to keep your cohort's level only two lower than yours requires a substantial investment in Charisma, so it's not as simple as just taking a feat.

I still feel that this assessment sort of illustrates the less than optimal nature of dual caster classes, though.

That doesn't mean that you shouldn't go ahead and play one, mind you. Ruling out everything less powerful than a full spellcaster limits you to... well, pretty much just full spellcasters. It's not like Arcane Heirophant compares unfavorably to, say, Rogue.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

To paraphrase Frank Trollman on the subject of theurge-type classes, "If the party Fighter gets a caster cohort, and his cohort has a caster cohort, the Fighter is bringing more magical power to the table than you are. As a Fighter."

That was in reference to one of the worst Theurges I've ever seen, the True Necromancer, which loses something like 3 levels of spells from each side.

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

Using Dru 4/Wiz 3/ AH10/ MT 3. you end up with 9th level spells on both sides. Take companion spellbond for the increased range on shared spells.

Iron body:Wizard spell, range: personal

You and your Familiar companion who is sentient and therefore the best animal companion EVER run around and kill everyone while you're basically impervious metal killing machines.

and that's not even the best combo available, thats just the first one I could think of. The possiblities are endless and ridiculously awsome.

yes its not quite as powerfull as a straight druid but I'm sure you can come up with a combo of wizard spells, sentient animal companion, and wildshape, and druid casting that would make it more than worth it.

[Edje]

What would be the best feat build for a lvl 8 ArH with 2 flaws?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Feats are Natural Bond, Natural Spell at 9, and...whatever. Toughness or something. Take Druid 3/Wizard 3/MT 1/AH 1. Skills are whatever you need to meet prerequisites.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Since you have some need of intelligence, Knowledge Devotion may be worth it if you still plan on being a bear in combat or using rays against high dexterity targets.

[Edje]

Practiced spellcaster ya or nah? and if so double up or single?

[Gnaeus]

Feats are Natural Bond, Natural Spell at 9, and...whatever. Toughness or something. Take Druid 3/Wizard 3/MT 1/AH 1. Skills are whatever you need to meet prerequisites.

Druid 3/Wizard 3/MT 1 doesn't have BAB +4.