Can you cheat at D&D?

[137beth]

Well, I can agree with you that the two are very different things. So I will explain what I really mean a bit better.
Jedi may have made a good point or two, but ultimately I do disagree with his interpretation of what cheating is, and yeah he has been contradictory or hard to get what he means. However, even though I can agree with some others here in their interpretations of what is and what is not cheating and see them as right, that does not excuse how some people here have acted. Some here have been right but far from polite, which is what I am complaining about here.

We agree, this discussion has become absurd. The reasons for why are semantics to me. So...why are so many people continuing this? I'm trying to get some people to see this point and maybe end this debate that has long gone south.

The only reason I am really responding to you here is because I do feel like you have been clear with your thoughts in a nice way, a definite exception to what I am speaking against. It's just good to see some actual debate and discussion going on (which this thread did honestly start with), even if just a short one.

I think people are still participating because they find the thread amusing for some reason, and want to keep it going.

You know what? Jedipotter, you've opened my eyes. I can see it clearly now - there is such as thing as cheating at D&D.

You cheat when you reach across the DM screen and stop treating players fairly. You cheat when you try to enforce your arbitrary sense of how people should make and play their characters on those that sit down across from you. You cheat when you make inflammatory, sweeping, and unfounded assumptions about massive swathes of the player base, and then use it as an excuse to peddle a perverse and corrupted version of the game. You cheat when you act like a tyrant, doling out punishment and hate, and doing so inconsistently and unashamedly.

You cheat when the game stops being about fun and starts being about control.

You cheat.

Are you calling Jedipotter a cheater? You forgot he is a Jedi! *waves hand* these are not the cheating accusations you are looking for.

[Flickerdart]

Are you calling Jedipotter a cheater? You forgot he is a Jedi! *waves hand* these are not the cheating accusations you are looking for.

Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.

[Forrestfire]

Good thing he's a jedi, otherwise he might find your lack of faith disturbing.

[Doc_Maynot]

Good thing he's a jedi, otherwise he might find your lack of faith disturbing.

Maybe that's why his stance isn't that clear. Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

[137beth]

Maybe that's why his stance isn't that clear. Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

Well, JediPotter absolutely never cast Avada Kedavra, so...

[torrasque666]

wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat

[Doc_Maynot]

wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat

Spam, ignore them. But it is odd they are here... Usually never happens.

[Qwertystop]

wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat wat

It's just spam, man. No need to follow garbage with more garbage.

[The-Mage-King]

It's just spam, man. No need to follow garbage with more garbage.

....Isn't this thread on its 15th page?

[Haluesen]

He tasks me; he tasks me, and I shall have him.

Ah I see. But is it really worth keeping up? I would think it better to show your views to those who were a bit more receptive.

Still, it is your time. I am merely giving advisement.

I think people are still participating because they find the thread amusing for some reason, and want to keep it going.

I suppose. I still have no clue why I am still looking at all this. I guess it is oddly fascinating to me. Still, the fact that this has gone on this long also worries me a bit. People are so insistent on making someone else see their way. It is a parade of stubbornness and grit. I don't think anyone's opinion is budging. Not Jedi's, and not all of the people debating with him. So I still just don't see the point.

....Isn't this thread on its 15th page?

I'll admit though of the things in this thread, that made me laugh.

[137beth]

....Isn't this thread on its 15th page?

Obviously, getting to 15 pages is cheating.

[ben-zayb]

8th page, actually. Must be my smurfcheat to display 60 posts per page.

[Captnq]

So it may be your personal experience, but it is a gross over generalization, full of stereotypes and it is trying to put people in a limited number of neat little cases that actually contain a tiny fraction of players. Moreover, it is quite dismissive of fellow gamers and with a scent of optimizers are the better players, and the others are having badwrongfun.
(Yes, I'm overreacting, but well, if we can't overeact on the internet, what is the point of it, eh?)

One, I don't have limited experience. I've GMed for hundreds of people (at the same time. Ran a 200 person LARP once.), have more game systems gathering dust on my shelve then you can imagine, and I've been doing this since I had to ink my own dice. So, no. This isn't a "limited" amount of experience, this is a TON of experience.

Two, Players fall into the four groups to some degree or another. There are BAD Optimizers, there are GOOD munchkins. There are GREAT Loonies. (I happen to have one in my current group. The guy dies alot, but he's funny as hell.) But they are all roleplayers.

Only REAL^TM role-players are the problem. Because they are like Jedi here. They ruin the fun. Ever play Amber? Loved that game. You have four stats, no dice, it's all about "thinking" through a problem. Then the REAL^TM role-players showed up and ruined it. Oh AmberMUSH, you are missed. The REAL^TM role-players were a god-damn plague on the place, constantly paging people to tell them how to play their characters.

Nothing wrong with a Loonie. I love loonies. I was a Loonie. Jack Sprat The Malkavian. I staged an alien invasion of an entire city for no reason at all. Giant inflatable sock puppets shooting down flying saucers. Took me a year to set it up. It was Awesome. The thing is, with a loonie, it's all about the prank. So they are likely to "cheat" using the excuse that "it's all for the yuks."

Nothing wrong with a munchkin either. Just got to keep an eye on them. They get too caught up in "winning" that's all. Nothing wrong with wanting to win. A desire to win is natural. They tend to cheat as well, but it's usually because they aren't very good at the game. Ironically, most munchkin's I've known are rather bad at optimizing. They cheat out of desperation.

The optimizer won't cheat, and in some regards that's his flaw. I had a player who asked me if I ever fudged the dice and I said, "Once. You had a bad dice roll, but it was really stupid place to die and ruined the story. But it wasn't anything important." She got pissed off, tore up her character sheet and quit. Why? Because her character was supposed to be dead. (actually, they could have raised dead, but that's besides the point, or maybe it is.) She couldn't play anymore knowing that I "cheated". I'm the DM. I'm allowed to Fudge the dice a little here and there when it doesn't make sense. Falling down a flight of stairs and breaking your neck is a dumb way to die. The Villain has a Plot that's unfolding and he can't die in the first act. A little fudging is good, here and there.

Ironically, I've found most Optimizers would rather DIE then cheat. That doesn't make them better then anyone else. In fact, it can totally ruin the evening. It's like playing with someone who has OCD. Worse, they are a Bitch for a DM because they have this knee jerk need to complain when they think the DM is screwing up. Just the other night, one of the other players attacked a Mutant Cactus and failed to hit. The roll was good enough for all the other cacti, why couldn't he hit this cactus?

So for the next ten minutes he proceeded to argue about why all the cactus should have the same AC. Holy Hopping Handgrenades! Maybe the damn mutant cactus has the Dodge Feat. Maybe the cactus has class level. Maybe it's a DIRE Cactus, you don't know. Stop arguing!

But that's the downside of the optimizer. He knows the rules and wants EVERYONE to follow them. He wants to win "fairly" and he can't win if the DM cheats. Not for him. Not against him. He wants an impartial world that's consistent. The optimizer has the problem of following the rules TOO closely.

Now the REAL^TM role-players, He's just a condescending jerk who looks down his nose at everyone and is a major pain in the ass. I find REAL^TM role-players actually cheat all the time, because they "don't care about the rules, they care about role-playing". For example.

I had a player want to be able to turn into a cute adorable critter. I tried to work it out, but he still would have had a +2 level adjustment, the way the player wanted it. He whined and bitched about how the ability to shapechange into a cute critter brought nothing combat wise to the game. Which was true, but it gave him a boatload of powers and abilities that would be useful outside of combat, and he still needed to pay for it. I wound up telling him to find someone else to DM because he couldn't play by the rules. "the Concept is what MATTERS".

No, the players are what matters. Having FUN at the game matters. Being part of a group matters. Achiveing great things or failing horribly matters. REAL^TM role-players get so obsessed with themselves being "so good at this" they forget there are other people and they are supposed to be PART OF A TEAM. Lord, If I had a nickle for every REAL^TM role-player who refused to join up with the rest of the party because his "concept" wouldn't allow it. Or attacked another party member because his "concept" required it. Or split the party because his "concept" required he go off alone. Or betrayed they party because his "concept" required it.

You know why the phrase "rocks fall, everyone dies" is said in the original concept? Because some REAL^TM role-player decided to murder the Good NPC king for no reason anyone else in the game could figure out.

So I suggest to everyone that you be a normal roleplayer, show a little flexability and try and be a team player. Work with people, not against them. Use your strengths and admit your weaknesses. Ask for help and offer what help you can and... this is what's most important...

Make sure your "concept" is that you are all friends and look out for each other.

That last one, it's mandated of anyone I run for. You are all friends. You know each other, you like each other, you get along. Nobody will betray anyone. Nobody will leave anyone behind. Roleplay liking each other or GET OUT. Because I've had it up to my eyeballs with REAL^TM role-players and their "concept" being more important then the rules, fun, and the other players.

[jedipotter]

Well, JediPotter absolutely never cast Avada Kedavra, so...

Sigh, my name should have been SithSnape.......Sith, Sith, Sith-Snape, Sith, Sith, Sith-Snape..tick tick tick

[eggynack]

The optimizer won't cheat, and in some regards that's his flaw. I had a player who asked me if I ever fudged the dice and I said, "Once. You had a bad dice roll, but it was really stupid place to die and ruined the story. But it wasn't anything important." She got pissed off, tore up her character sheet and quit. Why? Because her character was supposed to be dead. (actually, they could have raised dead, but that's besides the point, or maybe it is.) She couldn't play anymore knowing that I "cheated". I'm the DM. I'm allowed to Fudge the dice a little here and there when it doesn't make sense. Falling down a flight of stairs and breaking your neck is a dumb way to die. The Villain has a Plot that's unfolding and he can't die in the first act. A little fudging is good, here and there.

Ironically, I've found most Optimizers would rather DIE then cheat. That doesn't make them better then anyone else. In fact, it can totally ruin the evening. It's like playing with someone who has OCD. Worse, they are a Bitch for a DM because they have this knee jerk need to complain when they think the DM is screwing up. Just the other night, one of the other players attacked a Mutant Cactus and failed to hit. The roll was good enough for all the other cacti, why couldn't he hit this cactus?

So for the next ten minutes he proceeded to argue about why all the cactus should have the same AC. Holy Hopping Handgrenades! Maybe the damn mutant cactus has the Dodge Feat. Maybe the cactus has class level. Maybe it's a DIRE Cactus, you don't know. Stop arguing!

But that's the downside of the optimizer. He knows the rules and wants EVERYONE to follow them. He wants to win "fairly" and he can't win if the DM cheats. Not for him. Not against him. He wants an impartial world that's consistent. The optimizer has the problem of following the rules TOO closely.

That stuff is ridiculously accurate to my state of existence. Including the annoying rules lawyery part which demands that I run constant fact checking in the middle of combat. Maybe especially that part. Cheating is pretty much completely antithetical to an optimizer's ethos, which is a big part of why this stuff Jedipotter is saying is so ridiculous. It's a way of gaming that just falls apart if you fudge rolls or ignore prerequisites.

[Anlashok]

Cheating is pretty much completely antithetical to an optimizer's ethos, which is a big part of why this stuff Jedipotter is saying is so ridiculous.

Not as ridiculous when you remember that this is someone who thinks using a Bag of Holding as written is cheating.

Or going back to the OP, that stacking the deck in a card game is somehow following the rules. But also cheating at the same time. Somehow.

[Aegis013]

That stuff is ridiculously accurate to my state of existence. Including the annoying rules lawyery part which demands that I run constant fact checking in the middle of combat. Maybe especially that part. Cheating is pretty much completely antithetical to an optimizer's ethos, which is a big part of why this stuff Jedipotter is saying is so ridiculous. It's a way of gaming that just falls apart if you fudge rolls or ignore prerequisites.

It is similar for me. I've retired characters in response to being resurrected for free by the DM in the past. Knowing the character should be dead by the rules takes the fun out of the character. I don't run constant fact-checking unless it won't bother the pace of the game. I don't rules lawyer during a game if there is an agreement between other player and DM at the benefit of the other player (I will if it's at the detriment of the other player), but I will bring it up with the DM after the game. I will when it's between me and the DM, even if it's at my detriment. I'm not sure how I'd feel about the cactus thing, but there have been plenty of "The door is made of WHAT?" instances with me.

For the most part, I'd say Captnq's description fits me as an optimizer reasonably well.

[Psychoalpha]

unless you're fudging die rolls (while not being the DM)

It's still cheating when a DM does it, people just give them a pass because reasons.

More recently:

I suppose. I still have no clue why I am still looking at all this. I guess it is oddly fascinating to me. Still, the fact that this has gone on this long also worries me a bit. People are so insistent on making someone else see their way. It is a parade of stubbornness and grit. I don't think anyone's opinion is budging. Not Jedi's, and not all of the people debating with him. So I still just don't see the point.

Welcome to the internet, it's always nice to meet people who are new to the whole experience. ^_^

[Haluesen]

Welcome to the internet, it's always nice to meet people who are new to the whole experience. ^_^

Oh haha. That's actually sort of funny to me. Nope not new to the whole thing. Just look at my sig to get my general views, just said better by other people. That said I am just really surprised it all went on this long without a mod or someone closing it down. I was trying to get people to stop wasting their time with this, but I'm starting to think that now I may be wasting my time telling them not to waste theirs. Still, I feel it was worth the attempt.

I do thank you for the welcome though. I'd offer to share a drink of gratitude, except that I am currently low on coin. Interweb currency and otherwise. Sorry. Would you accept a virtual high five that I mean as a real one?

[Dimers]

I was trying to get people to stop wasting their time with this, but I'm starting to think that now I may be wasting my time telling them not to waste theirs. Still, I feel it was worth the attempt.

o/~ To dream the impossible dream -- to fight the unbeatable foe -- o/~

[Psychoalpha]

High fives are acceptable, if possibly misguided. >.>

That said...

I was trying to get people to stop wasting their time with this, but I'm starting to think that now I may be wasting my time telling them not to waste theirs. Still, I feel it was worth the attempt.

Presumably those still contributing (I admit the word may be used loosely here) to the thread also feel it's worth the attempt?

If someone says to you, "All left handed people are abominations before god and should be killed.", and is making a serious statement, the odds are very good that nothing you say is going to change their mind. It's a pretty insane thing to say, or think, so the very fact that they've reached that point suggests you're not dealing with a reasonable person.

I submit that most people would still try to find out why they thought that, and try to reason with them in order to sway them away from such an obviously insane perspective, because for most of us we can't accept that the person is just truly insane. There has to be some how or why to their belief, a thread that can be pulled in order to unravel the quilt of experiences that led them to arrive at that conclusion. It should be pretty obvious up front that the person is bananapants and you're better off just cutting your losses, but people want to believe it's really just an elaborate misunderstanding that can be rectified, so when faced with such a person will generally continue banging their heads against that wall until they have a concussion.

If this weren't the case, trolls would have died out from starvation long ago. ^_^

[eggynack]

Also, I'm kinda bored, and while I like doing a lot of other things 'round these parts, getting involved in one of the occasional ridiculous and pointless argument threads that pop up here on occasion can be pretty fun. This is a pretty good one too, though I do rather miss the work of folks like Pickford and Visigani. Their crazy argument threads tended to focus on the rules side of things, while Jedipotter does not, and I usually find the former sort more interesting. It helps that I don't think much druid threadery is going on right now. These sorts of things come in waves, and arguing with Jedipotter about random stuff seems to be the flavor of the day.

[Jeff the Green]

Plus there's this perverse amusement in seeing logic be tortured so.

[Doc_Maynot]

Yeah, this is starting to make my miss Visigani and their VoP obsession.

[Juntao112]

Ah I see. But is it really worth keeping up? I would think it better to show your views to those who were a bit more receptive.

Still, it is your time. I am merely giving advisement.

From Hell's heart, I stab at him.

[Haluesen]

o/~ To dream the impossible dream -- to fight the unbeatable foe -- o/~

Ah I see then. Carry on.

High fives are acceptable, if possibly misguided. >.>

That said...



Presumably those still contributing (I admit the word may be used loosely here) to the thread also feel it's worth the attempt?

If someone says to you, "All left handed people are abominations before god and should be killed.", and is making a serious statement, the odds are very good that nothing you say is going to change their mind. It's a pretty insane thing to say, or think, so the very fact that they've reached that point suggests you're not dealing with a reasonable person.

I submit that most people would still try to find out why they thought that, and try to reason with them in order to sway them away from such an obviously insane perspective, because for most of us we can't accept that the person is just truly insane. There has to be some how or why to their belief, a thread that can be pulled in order to unravel the quilt of experiences that led them to arrive at that conclusion. It should be pretty obvious up front that the person is bananapants and you're better off just cutting your losses, but people want to believe it's really just an elaborate misunderstanding that can be rectified, so when faced with such a person will generally continue banging their heads against that wall until they have a concussion.

If this weren't the case, trolls would have died out from starvation long ago. ^_^

I know it was fairly misguided...I am in a relatively good mood though, and despite my earlier post I do prefer to befriend people than to annoy them or make an enemy of them. Staying calm and cordial are just how I try to do that. *high fives!*

I think I see what you mean here...it is a good explanation. I mean, I know there is no way I can halt the ongoing talks. People are likely to keep at it and aggressively so. But still...I do like these boards more than any other sort of social site, and seeing people arguing over how to play a game or run it and getting kinda vicious about it distresses me. I try to ignore it usually, but this once I felt I had to try to say something.

...probably just like what you meant above, and the reason these people keep up the discussion. Mind blown.

Also, I'm kinda bored, and while I like doing a lot of other things 'round these parts, getting involved in one of the occasional ridiculous and pointless argument threads that pop up here on occasion can be pretty fun. This is a pretty good one too, though I do rather miss the work of folks like Pickford and Visigani. Their crazy argument threads tended to focus on the rules side of things, while Jedipotter does not, and I usually find the former sort more interesting. It helps that I don't think much druid threadery is going on right now. These sorts of things come in waves, and arguing with Jedipotter about random stuff seems to be the flavor of the day.

This is kinda funny reasoning, in a way. I did notice that these arguments seem to be in other threads too...though I do not quite see how it is fun. Talking about contrasting points of view, sure. Tons of fun to be had there. All sides involved just pressing their side and how wrong the others are to the point of seeming like watching a group of people smack their heads against a wall repeatedly and simultaneously? I don't quite get the appeal. And yet here I am.

Plus there's this perverse amusement in seeing logic be tortured so.

Oh noes! We've already had to see common sense die to such cruel torment, but not logic too???

Well carry on. I think I have taken things a little off topic. I do not believe anything I have said here has anything to do with cheating in D&D. Unless someone here can find a way to tie this back to that. Honestly, I challenge someone to.

From Hell's heart, I stab at him.

Editting to add this because I was writing when it was written. Well I have seen from other threads that debate against Jedi has become a sort of mini war, one which I am fairly certain you are a major contender in. In that case I say fight on as you so wish.

Also I think you were the one who told me to "get thee out" from the thread earlier because of my DMing...maybe I should have taken that advice.

[Anlashok]

I was trying to get people to stop wasting their time with this, but I'm starting to think that now I may be wasting my time telling them not to waste theirs. Still, I feel it was worth the attempt.

Isn't that a bit presumptuous to assume that the people here enjoying their perfectly good internet argument are "wasting their time"? I mean who are you to be the arbiter of what their time is worth and how they should spend said time?

[Arbane]

(I skipped to the end. Sorry if I repeat other people...)

Yep, some people cheat. I understand it's a shocking revelation, but it is true.

Spoiler

Show

The optimizers always start with a build. After all a build must be viable for them to play the character. If they want a swimming character they must have one that ''shoots through the water like a torpedo'', and if they can't build that, they will scrap the character. They are the most likely to cheat as they feel they must make the best and most capable character they can to have fun. So if a feat has a prerequisite they can't meet, but really want, they might try and take it and hope no one notices.

<sarcasm>Wanting to make a character who's GOOD at something. Those filthy munchkins.</sarcasm>

Edit: Someone trick Jedipotter into playing Exalted. I'm pretty sure his head would explode.

(And I see I'm late to the pinata. Oh, well....)

[eggynack]

Yeah, this is starting to make my miss Visigani and their VoP obsession.

That was a great one, but there was also this thread, where he opened by arbitrarily insulting everyone, this thread, where he claimed that druids are "gimp" (that's a bit of a personal favorite, though it didn't go as far as I would like), and of course this thread over here, which is just silly. VoP is the classic though.

This is kinda funny reasoning, in a way. I did notice that these arguments seem to be in other threads too...though I do not quite see how it is fun. Talking about contrasting points of view, sure. Tons of fun to be had there. All sides involved just pressing their side and how wrong the others are to the point of seeming like watching a group of people smack their heads against a wall repeatedly and simultaneously? I don't quite get the appeal. And yet here I am.

Depends on the argument, really. Most often, I like arguing for the very sake of arguing, either trying to match wits against a competent opponent, or just testing out odd logical lines. Sometimes, I like arguing because you learn cool stuff. For example, that aforementioned VoP thread actually did teach me a lot about the relic rules, and there was a crazy enchantment discussion thread that taught me about the standard of law from heroes of battle that provides a magic circle against chaos effect. Moreover, we often take pretty obvious rules things for granted, and while we are often right in those assumptions, it is often by arguing for what we know to be true that we can gain a true understanding of why we thought those things in the first place. Occasionally, I just like riding atop a wave of chaos, as explosions happen around me. Pretty much always, I like to partake in a shared experience of the ridiculousness in these threads, because it's pretty nifty.

[Kalmageddon]

Well, I can agree with you that the two are very different things. So I will explain what I really mean a bit better.
Jedi may have made a good point or two, but ultimately I do disagree with his interpretation of what cheating is, and yeah he has been contradictory or hard to get what he means. However, even though I can agree with some others here in their interpretations of what is and what is not cheating and see them as right, that does not excuse how some people here have acted. Some here have been right but far from polite, which is what I am complaining about here.

We agree, this discussion has become absurd. The reasons for why are semantics to me. So...why are so many people continuing this? I'm trying to get some people to see this point and maybe end this debate that has long gone south.

The only reason I am really responding to you here is because I do feel like you have been clear with your thoughts in a nice way, a definite exception to what I am speaking against. It's just good to see some actual debate and discussion going on (which this thread did honestly start with), even if just a short one.

I agree.
It's nice seeing someone being polite and respectful on the Internet.