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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Efreeti are Evil.
    Evil!
    Is it this hard to get?
    Do such conceptions as Literal Genie or Jackass Genie means nothing to you?
    Evil doesn't mean stupid. He trolls you with a Wish, you kill him. Who comes out of that ahead?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    - Staff of Wishes? Epic item! Not available!

    A) Not an Epic Item, so...

    Rules for Epic Items:
    1) Mimics a spell of an effective level higher than 9th.
    2) Has a caster level above 20th.
    3) Has a market price above 200,000 gp, not including material costs for armor or weapons, material component- or experience point-based costs

    So a CL Staff of Wish is 375 gp × 9 (the level of the highest-level spell) × 17 (the level of the caster) = 57,375 for the purposes of determining whether it is an Epic Item, even if you invest a googleplex of XP into each charge.

    B) Let's say it is an Epic item... Who cares? What prevents you from Wishing up an Epic Item? Nothing... Oh well then, who cares.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Post Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    Candle for an Efreet with a wish is just a proxy for other techniques for getting an XP-free wish. For example, simulacrum or ice assassin of an Efreet. Or Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell + wish. Or shapechange + Zodar. Or Archmage's SLA + wish + Supernatural Transformation. Or Planar Shepherd's Outsider Wildshaper + Efreet. Getting caught up on the process of getting the wish rather than the effect of the trick is just being small-minded.
    People often treat RAW as some holy inviolable thing. Certainly RAW is useful because some common gound is needed for meaningful rules discussion. However, RAW is frankly bogus in many respects, and for actual games needs to be updated with an appropriate set of houserules. For example, healing through drowning is technically RAW, but obviously not RAI.

    The best way to prevent free wishes and wish loops is with a simple houserule: All (Sp) and (Su) abilities require XP costs. In spite of RAW saying they don't require XP, it seems RAI that they're supposed to. Consider the Archmage PrC, which says (Sp) abilities still cost XP (but unfortunately the authors didn't think to update the general text for such abilities). This means you can Shapechange into a Zodar and get free access to Wish, but can't wish for anything unless you have 5000 XP, which is nice in higher level games but not gamebreaking.

    This means you can wish to create any magic item you want, but only if you have 5000 + the appropriate crafting cost in XP to spare. Similarly, you can bind an Efreeti, but it can't cast Wish for you unless it has at least 5000 XP to spare. That's a good fluff reason for why armies of Efreeti haven't taken over the multiverse yet (by granting wishes to human slaves) with infinite wishes for +100000000 weapons and bracers of AC +100000000, because such items don't exist since nobody has the XP to craft or wish for them.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

    There is an in game solution to all of this. It's the concept of "Yes, AND..."

    The BBEGs of the PCs pull the same stuff, and they have plot armor when they are offscreen. Warn your PCs about that.

    When PCs wish for infinite wishes, Vecna cultists wish for infinite wishes. Fiends of corruption cue in on all the easy access to wishes on that plane and start infiltrating. Next thing you know, your super buffed PCs are either holed up doing their wishenanigans or have buffed up and are off to solve the last quest.

    And this quest, or the next one, has scaled up in difficulty to match their new powers. And now they are being tailed by something, actually a group of somethings, that they just can't quite get to understand. And those next wish rings or candles are actually possessed by fiends, or used right in front of their faces by the fiends. But it doesn't have to go this way either. Don't punish the PCs for playing around in a fantasy that grants wishes. If you must punish the PCs for some reason, Punish them for being boring, making the game that you want to play boring. No PC has the right to cakewalk everything. If that were the case, there are perfectly fine videogames to enter cheat codes into for that experience.

    Always remember, though, It's ok to let the PCs think they beat you and the game. It makes them feel nice. When you come back at them in equal and opposite measure, it feels like the game has kicked into high gear.



    The other option is just house ruling that a wish can only create the abilities of a single wish spell. It runs out of energy to create any circumstance wherein it grants additional wishes entirely though it's own power. It can bind an efreet for you, and you can gamble that way. Or it can steal someone else's wish ring with multiple charges left. But it cannot, by itself, grant you more than a single wish by creating an item of more than 1 wish.

    I never subvert wishes that are within the clear boundaries of the wish spell, except the infinite wish loop. Getting a bigger wish than those options opens up the game to all the petty wish hijinx. I also let the PCs know that going in, both OOC and IC if possible. "That's a really tall order, it might not come out the way that you hope..."

    This allows you, the DM, the ability to stay within the wish boundaries. It allows you as the DM to set up angry NPCs. It allows you, as the efreet, to mock the PCs for their dumb wishes when not subverting them. "Yeah, I'll make you 1/7th stronger, puny weakling with tiny dreams."

    The other option is to treat this central derail into the bigger plot point. Have an efreet confront them, "you don't honestly think that you're the first person to have thought of this, do you? There are armies of wishers on every planet with life doing this, and they have much bigger plans that you."

    Now go make a weird race with access to infinite wishes and a desire to eat humanoids. And now, the PCs have a level appropriate challenge. And they'll need those wishes. To make allies who can wish for more wishes just to compete with the new major opponents...
    Last edited by daremetoidareyo; 2016-02-09 at 01:47 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruiser1 View Post
    The best way to prevent free wishes and wish loops is with a simple houserule: All (Sp) and (Su) abilities require XP costs. In spite of RAW saying they don't require XP, it seems RAI that they're supposed to.
    a) There is no reason to believe that was intended to be the rule, it clearly wasn't intended for Titans to either be unable to cast Gate, or have to create a backstory where they killed things for the XP, then get to Gate, and then have the DM do accounting.

    b) That's not the best houserule, it's not even close to the best houserule. The best houserule is "You can't wish for items without it costing XP, if you are using SLA wish, you can't create the items." There is no reason to think that a houserule that makes Efferti incapable of doing the one thing their ability was actually written to do (reward players with wishes) impossible. Just declare they can't wish for powerful items and let them move on with a pile of 25,000gp in gold, (or an item worth less than that) or a +1 to a stat, or a dead friend coming back to life (without level loss).

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    There is an in game solution to all of this. It's the concept of "Yes, AND..."

    The BBEGs of the PCs pull the same stuff, and they have plot armor when they are offscreen. Warn your PCs about that.
    This is always and forever a terrible option.

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    The other option is just house ruling that a wish can only create the abilities of a single wish spell. It runs out of energy to create any circumstance wherein it grants additional wishes entirely though it's own power. It can bind an efreet for you, and you can gamble that way. Or it can steal someone else's wish ring with multiple charges left. But it cannot, by itself, grant you more than a single wish by creating an item of more than 1 wish.

    I never subvert wishes that are within the clear boundaries of the wish spell, except the infinite wish loop. Getting a bigger wish than those options opens up the game to all the petty wish hijinx.
    A +99999999999 Belt of Magnificence is a single Wish that doesn't trigger the "greater than these" hijinks, I can then just Planar Bind a second efferti if I want a second item, though I'm not sure why I would want to.

    Also the greater than these hijinks are also a terrible thing that always make games worse.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    Okay, I gotta ask: Where is this "Ring of Infinite Wishes" people keep mentioning? I've never seen a ring with more than three wishes on it.
    It doesn´t exit.

    Simply put, the tactic here is to use the last wish on it to wish for a new and fresh one, making it "infinite".

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

    @Beheld:

    Sorry, man, I thought you are the guy that is knowable about most things outsider-related.
    There´re enough daemons/demons/devils with the ability to grant wishes and the will to twist them their ways to make that count.
    Still you act like the gal/guy who physically voices the wish is the same one that is in control of the wish.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    @Beheld:

    Sorry, man, I thought you are the guy that is knowable about most things outsider-related.
    There´re enough daemons/demons/devils with the ability to grant wishes and the will to twist them their ways to make that count.
    Still you act like the gal/guy who physically voices the wish is the same one that is in control of the wish.
    Uh... So what? If they don't give you exactly what you want they literally die the next round. Or worse, because you might just Imprison them instead.

    It doesn't matter if Glabrezu's try to distort your wish, first off, you use Efferti, because they are the ones that have the best wishes (3 per day, can only be used by others), second off, if the Efferti tries to betray you, you literally kill him for it and try again.

    Unless you are claiming that Efferti, while inside your Magic Circle with Dimension Anchor cast on it are somehow capable of "perverting" your very clear wish to kill you or escape? Because that is laughable.

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    Default Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    Evil doesn't mean stupid. He trolls you with a Wish, you kill him. Who comes out of that ahead?
    1) CR 8 creature? At what level?
    2) Plane Shift at will. Good luck to find him...
    3) You are a <...> now. Are you sure to still be able to kill the Efreeti?
    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    A) Not an Epic Item, so...

    Rules for Epic Items:
    1) Mimics a spell of an effective level higher than 9th.
    2) Has a caster level above 20th.
    3) Has a market price above 200,000 gp, not including material costs for armor or weapons, material component- or experience point-based costs

    So a CL Staff of Wish is 375 gp × 9 (the level of the highest-level spell) × 17 (the level of the caster) = 57,375 for the purposes of determining whether it is an Epic Item, even if you invest a googleplex of XP into each charge.

    B) Let's say it is an Epic item... Who cares? What prevents you from Wishing up an Epic Item? Nothing... Oh well then, who cares.
    OK.
    Moved it to the same line as Ring of Three Wishes

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    Default Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    This is always and forever a terrible option.



    A +99999999999 Belt of Magnificence is a single Wish that doesn't trigger the "greater than these" hijinks, I can then just Planar Bind a second efferti if I want a second item, though I'm not sure why I would want to.

    Also the greater than these hijinks are also a terrible thing that always make games worse.

    It's right there in the spell description. "You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)"

    A +999999999999 Belt of magnificence isn't a magic item that is any book, it has be customized. And, in character, you don't get to specify a numerical mechanical amount. That is metagaming. You're getting a partial fulfillment.

    If you wish for "a belt of magnificence that 2000000 amount times stronger than standard", you are totally subverting the RAW printed "Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item" because that is easily read as you creating a belt of magnificence 1, and then adding the power of other belts of magnificence 1999999 times. I hope your calendar days are planned out for all of that wishing, cuz duke asmodeus just set your wife on fire while you weren't paying attention.

    Wishes in D&D depend on good faith. Depleting that good faith with the DM has consequences, especially if the DM has stipulated the boundaries both in and out of character. Casting a wish and expecting to get that +999999999 item because the book said so is a ridiculous thing, because the DM is the authoritarian god of the campaign. He can flatly deny you anything that you want. And then the options are to either submit, or walk away. Just as the mantra here is no gaming is better than bad gaming, I submit that allowing the player to expects and demands to have access to a +9999999999 item to get what they want doesn't actually want to play the game with other people, but rather inflict his game on other people and that is conducive to bad gaming.

    Even so, the DM can allow it. And then HAVE to scale the opponents equivalently, because the DM is entitled to fun too.

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    Default Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

    @Beheld:

    I do not claim anything, but I also do not count on anything being a 100% sure unless odds really run in your favor.

    The point being here, whishes granted by Efreeti or Glabrezu are wishes granted by evil outsiders with their own will and goals. You do not simply dominate them in any way and get your desires covered, that´s not how it works.

    So, like mentioned before, I actually am curious why you think that your wish is granted in a way that fits you without any drawback. To that, I did not get any meaningful answer so far.

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    Default Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

    "Or, you could say that wish chains aren't possible because the gods prevent it."

    That should only be valid if a god shows up to prevent it. If you've never tried it I highly recommend it.

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    Default Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    1) CR 8 creature? At what level?
    2) Plane Shift at will. Good luck to find him...
    3) You are a <...> now. Are you sure to still be able to kill the Efreeti?
    Uh... How about the level you are capable of casting Planar Binding. How about his Planeshift can't reach me anyway, because it's Touch, and he can't effect me from inside the Magic Circle Against Evil that you do as part of the process of casting Planar Binding. Yes, I can still kill him while he sits in my Magical Circle Against Evil, totally helpless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    So, like mentioned before, I actually am curious why you think that your wish is granted in a way that fits you without any drawback. To that, I did not get any meaningful answer so far.
    Step 1: Magic Circle.
    Step 2: Dimensional Anchor.
    Step 3: Planar Binding.
    Step 4: Bargain with the Efferti until he agrees to the Deal.

    Bargain: Option 1) You can wait here for CL days while I present the deal to you over and over again, until on the final day I kill you if you refuse. Option 2) You can agree to the deal I am offering.

    Deal: I will tell you what 1-3 Items I want, I will explain what those items are, in numerical terms if necessary, until you are clear on what 1-3 items I want. If you have any question about what items I want, you should ask questions to clarify, because that is in your best interest. Then I will wish for the three items, and you will use your wish powers to grant me those items, and I will then cast Identify 1-3 times (or have your DFA buddy do it for free, whatever), and if the items are not the items that I wanted, that I explained to you ahead of time, then you failed to honor your end of the deal, and I will kill you right away, while you continue to sit helpless in that circle. If on the other hand, I get the items I want, then I will not kill you, and I will send you on your merry way/ give you 1-2 wishes for whatever you want.

    Once he agrees to the deal, he is bound by it, so he actually can't not give you the items you want, because that's not part of the deal which he is magically compelled to abide by, but if he does give you the wrong items, you also just kill him.

    Then I will rely on the principle that Efferti are not idiots who kill themselves to spite me.

    But hey, if they are, then there are a literal infinity more Efferti where that came from, and I can cast Planar Binding several more times today.

    You can also do things like Planar Bind a Barghest and explain how you are going to feed his Corpse to the Barghest if you want. But since death sucks ****, and giving you wishes costs literally nothing, the Efferti really doesn't need much convincing.

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    It's right there in the spell description. "You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)"
    "Greater than these" Which is why you choose one of "these" instead. Creating a magical item or adding to the powers of an existing one is one of the "these" which by definition means it can't be "greater than these."

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    A +999999999999 Belt of magnificence isn't a magic item that is any book, it has be customized. And, in character, you don't get to specify a numerical mechanical amount. That is metagaming. You're getting a partial fulfillment.
    In game you know that a Belt of Magnificence +6 (Which is specifically called a Belt of Magnificence +6 in the rules) makes you 15% better at all tasks. Asking for one that is 50 billion times stronger than that is not metagaming. It is a magic item that is in the the Epic Handbook, it lists the price for any magic item that grants an Epic Bonus, including Belt of Magnificence +50 trillion, or any other number.

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    If you wish for "a belt of magnificence that 2000000 amount times stronger than standard", you are totally subverting the RAW printed "Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item" because that is easily read as you creating a belt of magnificence 1, and then adding the power of other belts of magnificence 1999999 times. I hope your calendar days are planned out for all of that wishing, cuz duke asmodeus just set your wife on fire while you weren't paying attention.
    This is literally nonsensical on every level. By wishing for an item, you are not subverting the Raw ability to wish for an item. If you were in an Epic game, and had a bunch of XP, and wanted to Wish for a Belt of Magnificence +50 Quintillion, you could just do that, and it would be explicitly exactly what the Create Magic Item function of wish was designed for, to bypass the tremendously long crafting time of items at the cost of XP. The only way this is bypassing anything is that you aren't spending the XP cost, and whether that happens because you dominate someone, or because you use SLA Wish, not spending the XP cost doesn't magically turn a wish that is using one of the effects into a different wish.

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    Wishes in D&D depend on good faith. Depleting that good faith with the DM has consequences, especially if the DM has stipulated the boundaries both in and out of character. Casting a wish and expecting to get that +999999999 item because the book said so is a ridiculous thing, because the DM is the authoritarian god of the campaign. He can flatly deny you anything that you want. And then the options are to either submit, or walk away. Just as the mantra here is no gaming is better than bad gaming, I submit that allowing the player to expects and demands to have access to a +9999999999 item to get what they want doesn't actually want to play the game with other people, but rather inflict his game on other people and that is conducive to bad gaming.

    Even so, the DM can allow it. And then HAVE to scale the opponents equivalently, because the DM is entitled to fun too.
    Dude, no one is saying you should actually do this in an actual game. They are merely stating, "the rules allow this, therefore you should either not do it, or houserule the rules."
    Last edited by Beheld; 2016-02-09 at 02:58 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

    Concerning the "efreeti are not dumb" bit, this is why the efreeti in my games all have a level of wizard and the improved familiar feat.

    The main bone of contention here is about what RAW allows. However the bit in the Wish spell about "effects greater than the previous list" is a value judgement, and the RAW doesn't make that judgement for you. So some people value a Belt of Battle with ten million charges a day and the ability to grant the wearer xp-less SLA Wish is greater than a +3 sword while others think it's the same thing as the sword. Different value judgements.

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    Default Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    The main bone of contention here is about what RAW allows. However the bit in the Wish spell about "effects greater than the previous list" is a value judgement, and the RAW doesn't make that judgement for you. So some people value a Belt of Battle with ten million charges a day and the ability to grant the wearer xp-less SLA Wish is greater than a +3 sword while others think it's the same thing as the sword. Different value judgements.
    WTF? How is "X really good magic item" not "a magic item"? Is a Ferrari not a car because it's a really good car?

    How hard is it to just say "it's broken, it's not allowed"? Why is it so damn important to screw over players by having the gods mess with them, or jacking up their enemies, or making arguments about double secret RAW?

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    Default Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    @Beheld:

    I do not claim anything, but I also do not count on anything being a 100% sure unless odds really run in your favor.

    The point being here, whishes granted by Efreeti or Glabrezu are wishes granted by evil outsiders with their own will and goals. You do not simply dominate them in any way and get your desires covered, that´s not how it works.

    So, like mentioned before, I actually am curious why you think that your wish is granted in a way that fits you without any drawback. To that, I did not get any meaningful answer so far.
    Well, two things separately. First, on the efreeti side, you get them to agree to let you wish for three things, in the fashion that you word them. Planar binding specifies that the creature does what it agrees to, and that this is required for it to leave. You do simply dominate them to get your desires covered, and that is how it works, because the spell says that it compels them to take the actions you dictate. It doesn't matter how smart or evil the efreeti is, cause the spell doesn't make an exception for super evil and smart outsiders. Second, on the wish side, this falls under the safe wishes, so once the wish is in place a drawback would be impossible. So, you wish for the ring from the efreeti, and then neither the efreeti nor the wish can subvert your goals.

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    Default Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    Or worse, because you might just Imprison them instead. expelled
    Fixed that.


    Convincing the summoned anything is an opposed charisma check with a +0 or +6 based on the offer. It doesn't really matter how much you threaten it, and if you roll a 1, it goes away.
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    Default Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

    Quote Originally Posted by dascarletm View Post
    Convincing the summoned anything is an opposed charisma check with a +0 or +6 based on the offer. It doesn't really matter how much you threaten it, and if you roll a 1, it goes away.
    Threatening to kill things isn't really that important, except to show that it would be unreasonable for the Efferti to refuse, and therefore reasonable to accept your deal, bypassing the claim that it is "unreasonable" for the Efferti to choose cast three of my Daily SLAs, instead of death.

    So ****ing what, you are a Wizard who Planar Bound an Efferti, you roll a 1 one out of 20 times, you beat his Charisma check because you are a level 11 Wizard with a trapped CR 9 creature, you can just do Charisma damage to it with your spells if you really want.

    If he breaks out, either you kill him, or he runs away and you Planar Bind another one or the same one and who cares.

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    Default Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

    There are always ways to lower charisma, to ensure that the charisma check to convince the wish granter succeeds, for example this old thread details several that may apply. I personally enjoy the use of lesser geas.
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    Default Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    Evil doesn't mean stupid. He trolls you with a Wish, you kill him. Who comes out of that ahead?
    You're assuming you SURVIVE his wish troll, or notice it while he's still there.
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    Default Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    You're assuming you SURVIVE his wish troll, or notice it while he's still there.
    Yes, I'm assuming that his wish troll where I wish for an item, doesn't instantly murder me no save.

    I'm also assuming that when I cast Identify on an item, that it identifies the item, and then if it's the item I want, I can just not murder him, because that was the item I want.

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    Default Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    Yes, I'm assuming that his wish troll where I wish for an item, doesn't instantly murder me no save.

    I'm also assuming that when I cast Identify on an item, that it identifies the item, and then if it's the item I want, I can just not murder him, because that was the item I want.
    What about wish trolls where the item IS one that you want, but it comes with baggage you aren't aware of until later down the track? Or an item with an irresistible Nystuls Magic Aura, or anything else in between. I'm sure efreeti have had plenty of time to learn the tricks of the trade when it comes to perverting wishes in subtle ways that may not be noticed for hours, days, perhaps even months.
    Last edited by Crake; 2016-02-10 at 05:47 AM.
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    Default Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    What about wish trolls where the item IS one that you want, but it comes with baggage you aren't aware of until later down the track?
    Identify tells you about that kind of stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    Or an item with an irresistible Nystuls Magic Aura, or anything else in between.
    Wish can only do one thing at a time. it can't simulate a spell and make a magic item at the same time. So if he tried this, it would be patently evident by the fact I'm one item short. Trying it anyway would be trigger the " greater effects than this" clause, and likely get him screwed over more than me. Especially considering that it's a spell that doesn't exist (an irresistable version of a spell that normally allows a save).
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    Default Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruiser1 View Post
    All (Sp) and (Su) abilities require XP costs.
    Exactly this. The Efreet can only cast wish if you give him the XP. Which, you know, is cool for people who can't cast Wish on their own.

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    Default Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    What about wish trolls where the item IS one that you want, but it comes with baggage you aren't aware of until later down the track?
    Like what? What baggage comes with a created item? How does creating an item or adding abilities to one come with baggage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    Or an item with an irresistible Nystuls Magic Aura, or anything else in between.
    Oh, well in that case I cast my own made up homebrew spell "Summon Efferti who has to give me exactly what I want no matter what."

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    I'm sure efreeti have had plenty of time to learn the tricks of the trade when it comes to perverting wishes in subtle ways that may not be noticed for hours, days, perhaps even months.
    Why? No really, why does he spend any non zero amount of time learning how to make enemies of people who are stronger than him and can Call him on a whim for any reason when he can just as easily not do that? There is literally no reason for him to be trying to make enemies of people who can kill him even if he could, which, as discussed previously, he literally can't, because he is compelled to follow the bargain.

    Seriously, if your solution to a problem with the rules is "It's not a problem because I can just make creatures in the game do something that makes no sense and still doesn't even stop the actual problem, just adds one more pointless easily navigable layer to the hoops the PCs have to jump through to break the game." Maybe there actually is a problem with the rule and just ****ing admitting that would save us all a lot of time and trouble.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yahzi View Post
    Exactly this. The Efreet can only cast wish if you give him the XP. Which, you know, is cool for people who can't cast Wish on their own.
    If only you could read the rest of the thread you could tell us why you need to make such a broad sweeping nonsense change to correct such a minor problem.
    Last edited by Beheld; 2016-02-10 at 06:23 AM.

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    Default Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    if the Efferti tries to betray you, you literally kill him for it and try again.
    Except Efferti are, like any non-native Outsiders, immortal: you kill him - he come back at his home plane 5 minutes later. Enjoy your new immortal ill-wisher.
    Quote Originally Posted by Necroticplague View Post
    Identify tells you about that kind of stuff.
    Cursed Items:
    Delusion
    The user believes the item is what it appears to be, yet it actually has no magical power other than to deceive. The user is mentally fooled into thinking the item is functioning and cannot be convinced otherwise without the help of a remove curse spell.
    ...
    A simple detect magic spell yields a misleading aura and strength, often indicating that the item is a noncursed item of similar sort. An identify spell only has a 1% chance per caster level to reveal a cursed item’s true properties, including the cursed aspect. Analyze dweomer reveals the true nature of a cursed item.

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    Default Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    Why? No really, why does he spend any non zero amount of time learning how to make enemies of people who are stronger than him and can Call him on a whim for any reason when he can just as easily not do that? There is literally no reason for him to be trying to make enemies of people who can kill him even if he could, which, as discussed previously, he literally can't, because he is compelled to follow the bargain.

    Seriously, if your solution to a problem with the rules is "It's not a problem because I can just make creatures in the game do something that makes no sense and still doesn't even stop the actual problem, just adds one more pointless easily navigable layer to the hoops the PCs have to jump through to break the game." Maybe there actually is a problem with the rule and just ****ing admitting that would save us all a lot of time and trouble.
    The next day the wizard disappears and is never heard from again. Why? The Efreet had a servant use its wishes to wish the wizard into an antimagic field, or a dead magic plane, and brutally murder him.

    Efreet are intelligent evil creatures with servants and/or friends that do not like being used. They may not be able to directly use their wishes but that doesn't stop them from finding someone who can and is willing to make them for the Efreet.
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    Default Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Except Efferti are, like any non-native Outsiders, immortal: you kill him - he come back at his home plane 5 minutes later. Enjoy your new immortal ill-wisher.
    Cursed Items:
    Calling
    A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can’t be dispelled.
    Last edited by thethird; 2016-02-10 at 06:37 AM.
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    Default Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Except Efferti are, like any non-native Outsiders, immortal: you kill him - he come back at his home plane 5 minutes later. Enjoy your new immortal ill-wisher.
    Cursed Items:
    1) See the actual rules for calling spells.

    2) Analyze Dweomer the spell of the same level that the Wizard already has access to if he is casting Planar Binding always figures it out no matter what and can identify all three items and has no material component cost, so if you do it 500 times because for some inexplicable reason the first 499 Efferti had a death wish it saves money? Oh wow, good job tricking that 30 Int Wizard who's cast Analyze Dweomer and killed you, again, for no reason, because there is literally nothing to gain from trying to screw the Wizard.

    Quote Originally Posted by zergling.exe View Post
    The next day the wizard disappears and is never heard from again. Why? The Efreet had a servant use its wishes to wish the wizard into an antimagic field, or a dead magic plane, and brutally murder him.

    Efreet are intelligent evil creatures with servants and/or friends that do not like being used. They may not be able to directly use their wishes but that doesn't stop them from finding someone who can and is willing to make them for the Efreet.
    How do they have any friends or servants when explicit offers to deal with them result in them trying to break the deal and then kill you? How do they get the servant to wish for you to be transported when the servant makes a wish they instantly pervert the wish to kill him instead because they hate being sane so much that even when offered explicit trades of free wishes they refuse and try to kill you instead?

    And hope you aren't some kind of Wizard or something, that can just kill them when they try to betray you.

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    Default Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    Uh... How about the level you are capable of casting Planar Binding.
    It's highly unusual. Most instances of Wish-looping suggested by wet behind the ears low-levels, who are physically incapable to cast Circle vs X; hell, original Pun-Pun was 5th level!
    Quote Originally Posted by thethird View Post
    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    1) See the actual rules for calling spells.
    It have nothing to do with Calling rules, and everything to do with Outsider.
    You may call any sort of creature (or even object), not just an Outsider; Outsider, if killed not on native plane, reforms back

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