Why doesn't Vaarsuvius use a wizard's staff?

[teratorn]

V did find a staff but it was lime green and didn't agree with V's robe. Probably as good a reason as any advanced in this thread that is rapidly becoming a discussion on how wizards are overpowered in D&D.

[Byzantine2]

I think the main reason is because every single member of The OOTS is so unoptimized and lacking so much in equipment it is laughable, and is part of the reason they are having such trouble with beating Xykon in the first place. Give V the staff then you have other people thinking why doesn't X have y? And down it goes into the party actually becoming efficient, and ruining the story in the process.

[Dr.Epic]

Maybe V should start attending more staff meeting to get one.

And you know where Xykon keeps his armies? In his sleeve-ies.

[SavageWombat]

Maybe it's just me, but I've found very few situations where a wizard would WANT to spend his treasure share on a staff under 3.5 rules. There's a couple of really high level ones, but the game designers have effectively re-built the rules for staves (twice if you count Paizo) to make them actually useful for a character.

So it's no problem for me to imagine he doesn't carry a staff even if optimized.

[jere7my]

I think this is starting to go off on a tangent. I see no fault with your argument above, but I don't see how it applies to snikrept's original claim that being named Windstaff would suggest that staffs in general are rare.

Fair enough.

Sure, a Greenhilt sword might be rare.
Sure, a Thundershield might be unusual.
Sure, a Windstaff might be unusual.

But does that by itself justify a claim that all swords, shields, or staffs rare? I think not.

I think what it tells us is that powerful or unusual magic items are notable. The sword with a green hilt stuck in people's minds enough to remember Roy's ancestor by that handle. A "windstaff" (whatever that is) must have been significant enough to get attached to Leeky's name. I don't know if there ever was a thundershield; more likely it signified "shield-bearer who's enthusiastic about Thor." But nonhumans, especially long-lived races, would have different naming conventions anyway.

[FlawedParadigm]

Well, being fair, carrying a staff or wand of a commonly used spell around just to save on the spell slots of having to prepare it is nice enough if you happen to find one laying around. It's just not usually worth the effort of making them unless it's either something you can't get enough of (healing) or it's something you want access to, but can't be bothered to prepare with your own spell slots. I've had a few Wands of Knock in my day - I always want access to Knock in case an irritating lock, but I rarely need it on a daily basis, so it's not worth an actual spell slot.

Also, if you're not using command words, magic items like that can be handy if you've been Silenced.

(Yes, by the way, I know V is nowhere near optimal. So much so that I would never have suggested V having used Sunburst if it weren't for the fact that I've already seen V do it, simply because that or Temporal Stasis would be the most effective core spell to have against a single undead target at 8th level. As mentioned before, with V knowing for certain fact there's an expectation Xykon might show up at any moment, it's not at all unreasonable to think V would even have it prepared today. Using it on Malack if/had the situation arisen would merely be a bonus.)

[factotum]

So much so that I would never have suggested V having used Sunburst if it weren't for the fact that I've already seen V do it

You saw Darth V do it. That means Sunburst could have been a spell one of his splices knew rather than one he did.

[Kish]

Durkon's name: Elemental term+martial item Durkon wields.
Durkon's first evil opposite's name: Elemental term+martial item Hilgya wore.
Durkon's second evil opposite's name: Elemental term+martial item Leeky wielded.
Speculating about some kind of powerful "windstaff" makes little sense. We saw Leeky's staff. It appeared to be a perfectly ordinary quarterstaff, and it was broken by Durkon's thunder.

[Copperdragon]

Why doesn't Vaarsuvius use a wizard's staff?

Why should he?

D&D does not require Wizards to wield a staff of any sort. There is nothing per se that gives a huge advantage if you do. A staff is just like any other magic item or weapon a character might wield, so it's a toss between "Do I want this staff or any of those other items?", and Vaarsuvius seems to have picked "Any of those other items".

Again, what's the big reason a Wizard has to go for a staff when it's not required by class and also does not offer such a huge advantage?
You could argue that Wands and Staffs would enhance Vaarsuvius Power Potential, but in the same way you could ask why Belar or Haley don't use Alchemists Fires or other items of that type on a regular basis. Or why Roy isn't fighting with Axe and Shield. He just picked a different setup/choice of items and that's the end of this story.

[zimmerwald1915]

You saw Darth V do it. That means Sunburst could have been a spell one of his splices knew rather than one he did.

I think the argument is more nuanced than "Vaarsuvius knows Sunburst because we've seen Vaarsuvius cast Sunburst," and makes a less demanding claim, precisely because it took place while she was spliced. From where I'm sitting, the argument looks something like this:

We have good reason to believe that Vaarsuvius was level 14 at the time of the splice. The Ancient Black Dragon, who was in a position to know, having watched and studied Vaarsuvius for an extended period of time, planned for her to expend her level 6 and level 7 spells before forcing a confrontation. She did not mention level 8 spells, and Vaarsuvius did not employ level 8 spells against her. It is therefore reasonable to conclude that Vaarsuvius did not have level 8 spell slots naturally, and thus would have no reason to learn level 8 spells.

This being the case, Sunburst was almost certainly a spell one of the splices knew. In fact, I think we can pretty safely say that it was Ganonron's spell, since Empowered Sunburst uses a level 10 slot and Jephton had mentioned that he had lost his Epic slots to Xykon's Energy Drain. However, it was also the only offensive spell Vaarsuvius used in her fight against Xykon that was visibly effective against him. Vaarsuvius would have remembered that.

Some time between escaping from Xykon and fighting Ganjii and Enor, Vaarsuvius leveled to 15, as evidenced by her casting a level 8 spell in that fight. At that point, she would have had access to level 8 spells for the first time, and indeed would have learned two automatically. Since V is an evoker, it would make a great deal of sense for one of those two spells to be an evocation spell, like Sunburst, so she can fill her level 8 specialist slot without having to resort to metamagic. At the same time, her leader is actively formulating strategies meant to be used against Xykon specifically. We know he and Durkon formulated the idea for the defensive Mass Death Ward spell while discussing anti-Xykon strategies. Even if Roy didn't have a similar conversation with Vaarsuvius (and it would be a severe oversight for Roy not to have a similar conversation with Vaarsuvius), that conversation between Roy and Durkon took place within Vaarsuvius' earshot and before Vaarsuvius started talking with Blackwing. It represents another little reminder that they will all need to pull their weight against Xykon when the time comes, and that Vaarsuvius should think, from time to time, about how she can contribute. Remember, this is before the fight with the courier and Buggy Lou's slavers, so Vaarsuvius is not thinking along the lines of "I shall limit myself to enhancement and support only" yet.

Given all this, it would not be at all surprising if Vaarsuvius knows Sunburst. The claim that Vaarsuvius must know Sunburst is a reach, but there are very good in-comic reasons for her to have learned it, and it should not provoke "deus ex machina" accusations if she uses it at some point.

[FlawedParadigm]

I think the argument is more nuanced than "Vaarsuvius knows Sunburst because we've seen Vaarsuvius cast Sunburst," and makes a less demanding claim, precisely because it took place while she was spliced. From where I'm sitting, the argument looks something like this:

We have good reason to believe that Vaarsuvius was level 14 at the time of the splice. The Ancient Black Dragon, who was in a position to know, having watched and studied Vaarsuvius for an extended period of time, planned for her to expend her level 6 and level 7 spells before forcing a confrontation. She did not mention level 8 spells, and Vaarsuvius did not employ level 8 spells against her. It is therefore reasonable to conclude that Vaarsuvius did not have level 8 spell slots naturally, and thus would have no reason to learn level 8 spells.

This being the case, Sunburst was almost certainly a spell one of the splices knew. In fact, I think we can pretty safely say that it was Ganonron's spell, since Empowered Sunburst uses a level 10 slot and Jephton had mentioned that he had lost his Epic slots to Xykon's Energy Drain. However, it was also the only offensive spell Vaarsuvius used in her fight against Xykon that was visibly effective against him. Vaarsuvius would have remembered that.

Some time between escaping from Xykon and fighting Ganjii and Enor, Vaarsuvius leveled to 15, as evidenced by her casting a level 8 spell in that fight. At that point, she would have had access to level 8 spells for the first time, and indeed would have learned two automatically. Since V is an evoker, it would make a great deal of sense for one of those two spells to be an evocation spell, like Sunburst, so she can fill her level 8 specialist slot without having to resort to metamagic. At the same time, her leader is actively formulating strategies meant to be used against Xykon specifically. We know he and Durkon formulated the idea for the defensive Mass Death Ward spell while discussing anti-Xykon strategies. Even if Roy didn't have a similar conversation with Vaarsuvius (and it would be a severe oversight for Roy not to have a similar conversation with Vaarsuvius), that conversation between Roy and Durkon took place within Vaarsuvius' earshot and before Vaarsuvius started talking with Blackwing. It represents another little reminder that they will all need to pull their weight against Xykon when the time comes, and that Vaarsuvius should think, from time to time, about how she can contribute. Remember, this is before the fight with the courier and Buggy Lou's slavers, so Vaarsuvius is not thinking along the lines of "I shall limit myself to enhancement and support only" yet.

Given all this, it would not be at all surprising if Vaarsuvius knows Sunburst. The claim that Vaarsuvius must know Sunburst is a reach, but there are very good in-comic reasons for her to have learned it, and it should not provoke "deus ex machina" accusations if she uses it at some point.

Precisely this. I was working with the idea that most people were thinking along these lines. Sunburst, like I said, is the single most effective anti-Xykon Evocation at that level and even in general is a good way to dole out mass blindness and a bit of damage if no undead happen to be around. Not to mention if V should ever be curious, it dispels non-9th/10th level darkness effects, and could theoretically reveal MitD early (although we as readers know better, there's no reason for V to know that.)

On a side note, picking 8th level spells with Conjuration and Necromancy both barred has to suck.

[snikrept]

Sure, a Greenhilt sword might be rare.
Sure, a Thundershield might be unusual.
Sure, a Windstaff might be unusual.

But does that by itself justify a claim that all swords, shields, or staffs rare? I think not.

We're talking about magical staffs, right? Not all staffs? Particularly magical staffs a wizard might use, and not, say, +1 quarterstaffs? Staffs with significant magical powers?

When you mention a comparison to "all swords," are you making sure to refer to the subset of swords with significant magical powers?

[zimmerwald1915]

We're talking about magical staffs, right? Not all staffs? Particularly magical staffs a wizard might use, and not, say, +1 quarterstaffs? Staffs with significant magical powers?

When you mention a comparison to "all swords," are you making sure to refer to the subset of swords with significant magical powers?

The "Thundershield" is actually the strongest counterargument to this. While the Greenhilt sword (post-reforging - we don't know whether it was magical beforehand) is a powerful magic item, and Leeky Windstaff's staff is probably a magic staff given that it resonated with magic, Durkon's shield has never shown any magical properties. It's an "heirloom," and thus associated with the family, but it's not anything special in and of itself.

[Pigkappa]

Staves are very costly items in D&D. In tabletop games, many players are reluctant to spend many resources on an item which will eventually run out of charges.

[Olinser]

Precisely this. I was working with the idea that most people were thinking along these lines. Sunburst, like I said, is the single most effective anti-Xykon Evocation at that level and even in general is a good way to dole out mass blindness and a bit of damage if no undead happen to be around. Not to mention if V should ever be curious, it dispels non-9th/10th level darkness effects, and could theoretically reveal MitD early (although we as readers know better, there's no reason for V to know that.)

On a side note, picking 8th level spells with Conjuration and Necromancy both barred has to suck.

Given V's apparent inability to land Dimensional Anchor, s/he may very well have taken Dimensional Lock as the second spell.

As hir's level up also came in the middle of hir 'supporting the party' phase, and they are gearing up to fight an Epic Lich, it is very possible that s/he took Protection from Spells as well.

[FlawedParadigm]

Given V's apparent inability to land Dimensional Anchor, s/he may very well have taken Dimensional Lock as the second spell.

As hir's level up also came in the middle of hir 'supporting the party' phase, and they are gearing up to fight an Epic Lich, it is very possible that s/he took Protection from Spells as well.

Well, V at 15th level gets two spells for free, so I'm sure at least one of them has a potential use on offence. I would not be surprised if the other were Iron Body, Dimensional Lock, or Protection from Spells. I figure the other has to be Temporal Stasis, Sunburst, or Polymorph Any Object.

Of course that's fairly optimal thinking within the confines of having the two best schools of that level barred. This being OotS, V might have just taken Telekinetic Sphere and Moment of Prescience and called it a day.

[Olinser]

Well, V at 15th level gets two spells for free, so I'm sure at least one of them has a potential use on offence. I would not be surprised if the other were Iron Body, Dimensional Lock, or Protection from Spells. I figure the other has to be Temporal Stasis, Sunburst, or Polymorph Any Object.

Of course that's fairly optimal thinking within the confines of having the two best schools of that level barred. This being OotS, V might have just taken Telekinetic Sphere and Moment of Prescience and called it a day.

One of them is Power Word - Stun

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0716.html

The only question is what the other spell is - or whether V might have gotten more.

[Flickerdart]

This being the case, Sunburst was almost certainly a spell one of the splices knew. In fact, I think we can pretty safely say that it was Ganonron's spell, since Empowered Sunburst uses a level 10 slot and Jephton had mentioned that he had lost his Epic slots to Xykon's Energy Drain. However, it was also the only offensive spell Vaarsuvius used in her fight against Xykon that was visibly effective against him. Vaarsuvius would have remembered that.

An Epic spell slot and a 10+ level spell slot are not the same thing. While only an Epic caster can have 10+ level spells, Epic slots are specifically slots that can be used to cast Epic spells, which mere metamagicked 0-9th level spells are not.

[SaintRidley]

You saw Darth V do it. That means Sunburst could have been a spell one of his splices knew rather than one he did.

As an Empowered Sunburst, it certainly took one of Ganonron or Jephtron's spellslots. Whether V was able to use V's own spells in those spell slots as opposed to those of the corresponding splice is uncertain.

I'd say very probable though by no means certain that it was one of the Splice's spells.

I'd also say that, given its power and its special utility against Xykon, it's not unreasonable that V also decided to learn it when acquiring 8th level spells along with Power Word Stun.

[FlawedParadigm]

One of them is Power Word - Stun

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0716.html

The only question is what the other spell is - or whether V might have gotten more.

Not on panel yet, anyhow. Depends how far ahead V thinks and when level 15 came. I know V was shopping for spell components shortly after they landed on the Western Continent. It's possible there was a purchase of a couple of off panel 8th level scrolls purchased for current/future copying. We really don't know much about the Order's finances - it's possible they're also rich enough for V to have bought scrolls for every spell s/he has access to, assuming they were available for sale (probably not, though.)

Don't think it'd be like that in any case, since there's probably at least a few of those spells Rich wouldn't want V having (Polymorph Any Object can make a surprising number of situations trivial.)

[FlawedParadigm]

As an Empowered Sunburst, it certainly took one of Ganonron or Jephtron's spellslots. Whether V was able to use V's own spells in those spell slots as opposed to those of the corresponding splice is uncertain.

I'd say very probable that it was one of the Splice's spells.

I'd also say that, given its power and its special utility against Xykon, it's not unreasonable that V also decided to learn it when acquiring 8th level spells along with Power Word Stun.

Yes, it could have been a splice spell at the time. My point is that, even if it was then, with us having confirmation that V has 8th level spells now, it would seem somewhat narratively silly for an Evocation specialist on a quest to kill a specific undead to not take Sunburst.

[SaintRidley]

Yes, it could have been a splice spell at the time. My point is that, even if it was then, with us having confirmation that V has 8th level spells now, it would seem somewhat narratively silly for an Evocation specialist on a quest to kill a specific undead to not take Sunburst.

That's kind of what I was getting at with the last sentence there.

[Olinser]

Yes, it could have been a splice spell at the time. My point is that, even if it was then, with us having confirmation that V has 8th level spells now, it would seem somewhat narratively silly for an Evocation specialist on a quest to kill a specific undead to not take Sunburst.

Yes - but you could also make the argument that it was silly from the start for Durkon to not take at least one Searing Light - and he has yet to cast that. Durkon had Speak with the Dead prepared instead, for crying out loud!

[SoC175]

The one thing all those people have in common is that they're the antagonists. There's never been an instance of any member of the Order being shown to have a dozen useful magical items on their person.

Well, it's to be assumed that they have all the rank-and-file items that characters of their level are supposed to have and these are not mentioned as long as they just "silently fade into the total numbers on their character sheet" as opposed to having special flashy effects that are actively used.

E.g. in on of the bonus comics Belkar mentions in a sub-clause how he recently threw his last ring of protection +1 on the trash because he has better items by now.

[zimmerwald1915]

Yes - but you could also make the argument that it was silly from the start for Durkon to not take at least one Searing Light - and he has yet to cast that. Durkon had Speak with the Dead prepared instead, for crying out loud!

Why would it be silly for Durkon not to pack Searing Light? Thor's Lightning will do more damage against any enemy except Xykon. Searing Light requires a successful touch attack to deal its damage, and I don't think Durkon has ever even attempted a ranged touch attack, preferring area of effect spells, melee touch attack spells, or buffs to his own martial melee.

Besides, you're talking about something different. Assuming both that Durkon and V had Searing Light and Sunburst on their spell lists, it would be equally silly for each not to prepare each spell. But we're not talking about preparing spells that are already on their lists of spells known. We're talking about adding new spells to that list. Durkon, if he does not prepare Searing Light one day, can prepare it the next, because it always is and will always be on his spell list. V if she does not learn Sunburst at some point can never prepare it ever, and will have forever closed out that option for herself.

[hamishspence]

V if she does not learn Sunburst at some point can never prepare it ever, and will have forever closed out that option for herself.

V's a wizard- finding a scroll of that spell and copying it into spellbook is all that's needed.

[zimmerwald1915]

V's a wizard- finding a scroll of that spell and copying it into spellbook is all that's needed.

Yes...that's my point. She needs to copy it into her spellbook somehow before she can prepare it. That's why comparing V having Sunburst to Durkon having Searing Light doesn't work, because Durkon doesn't have to learn Searing Light, whereas V has to learn Sunburst.

[FlawedParadigm]

V's a wizard- finding a scroll of that spell and copying it into spellbook is all that's needed.

That's the problem; whatever two spells you pick when you get a new spell level are the only ones you're guaranteed to get. So far, in the course of the story, the one and only time V has had access to a large library was back in Azure City, and we only know for certain that Power Word: Blind was obtained there (V's favour Roy obtained from Lord Shojo.) Now, it's entirely possible V spent a few days there or took some scrolls to be copied into the ol' spellbook on the road we were never told about, including ones V couldn't cast yet.

However, if it's not the case, we know that in Rich's world, high-level people are quite sparse. It's entirely possible scrolls for 8th and/or 9th level spells exist only in the personal libraries or spellbooks of whatever existing Wizards can use them - which, given where Dorukan currently is, may mean just V's master Aandarius. Assuming A's still alive, at that. Stores may not have access to them, or not carry them because there's so few buyers. Being a high level Wizard in a semi-low magic campaign has some downsides.

[Olinser]

Why would it be silly for Durkon not to pack Searing Light? Thor's Lightning will do more damage against any enemy except Xykon. Searing Light requires a successful touch attack to deal its damage, and I don't think Durkon has ever even attempted a ranged touch attack, preferring area of effect spells, melee touch attack spells, or buffs to his own martial melee.

Besides, you're talking about something different. Assuming both that Durkon and V had Searing Light and Sunburst on their spell lists, it would be equally silly for each not to prepare each spell. But we're not talking about preparing spells that are already on their lists of spells known. We're talking about adding new spells to that list. Durkon, if he does not prepare Searing Light one day, can prepare it the next, because it always is and will always be on his spell list. V if she does not learn Sunburst at some point can never prepare it ever, and will have forever closed out that option for herself.

Yes, Thor's Lightning is better than Searing Light against non-undead.... but that's not my point. The point is that Durkon prepared Speak with the Dead instead of either of them.

Durkon who can choose any spells never chooses undead-specific ones even when they know they're going to be fighting a Lich, so we expect V to pick one as one of hir only two spells?

[Stormlock]

On a side note, picking 8th level spells with Conjuration and Necromancy both barred has to suck.

I dunno, I think the nicest spells for that level are in abjuration and transmutation schools. Shadow Evocation is pretty nice as well. Prismatic Wall, Mind Blank, Shadow Evocation (though that's more useful for an illusionist or sorceror) and Temporal Stasis are all crazy good. And polymorph any object is.... yeah. Lets just say it needs some errata. Though I would find it highly entertaining if Xykon was finally defeated by being permanently polymorphed into an inanimate giant femur (And then a day later into a chamber pot via multiple castings.)