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2018-01-25, 12:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
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- Montreal
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2018-01-25, 12:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2013
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Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2018-01-25, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2015
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- On the tip of my tongue
Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence
Jeph is not force-feeding QC to anyone. It's more a declaration that he has no interest in accommodating people who are put off by the prevalence of minority characters. If they decide to accept it, cool. If they decide not to, whatever, don't let the door hit you on the way out, etc. Complaining about it will only make it 'worse'.
The issue is that Evie has not heard enough from Faye, or been around Faye long enough, to claim particular insight into Faye. For Evie to be teaching Faye about herself feels unearned.Last edited by Lethologica; 2018-01-25 at 01:15 PM.
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2018-01-25, 02:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2011
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- Calgary, AB
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2018-01-25, 02:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2013
Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence
Yeah I don't consider trying to make someone realize something by asking leading questions is meddling but they are far too new to the situation to be sure enough about their conclusions.
Somewhat beside the main discussion but what do you understand under a token character? It doesn't mean minority characters, if you have a bunch of bi characters none of them is token because having many of something (with roles) goes against the meaning of the term token character (imo even should they be added because the author wanted more bi characters. Say an author things there should be more important woman and writes a story with a female only cast, calling them token would be silly. If they had no personality beyond that trait (imo in the case of QC even if you might not like the new characters they don't have less personality than the old one taking into account shorter cummulitative screen time) that might be a problem but I think token would still be the wrong term for that.) Well you could have token characters from a bunch of different minorities I guess.
Just felt people were using token in weird ways.Last edited by Ibrinar; 2018-01-25 at 03:26 PM.
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2018-01-25, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
- Location
- The Lakes
Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence
A "token character" is a character who is in a work simply to have a member of some group in that work, and is often either a cliche or cardboard.
A fully realized character who happens to be of some group is not a token character. I can't think of any token characters in QC, really.It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2018-01-25, 02:51 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2013
Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence
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2018-01-25, 02:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2005
- Location
- Bergen
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2018-01-25, 06:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
- Location
- England
- Gender
Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence
There was some argument that Tilly might have been one. QC's first and only asexual human who turned up unannounced, spent 3 days annoying a main character and was subsequently put on a bus to space from where they probably won't be back. This is not the repertoire of a character who is intended to because a long-term fixture in a subsequent plot line.
Personally I found their cliche'd character and general attitude to be more annoying than anything to do with their gender, appearance or what not, but if any QC character was token - there just for the sake of being able to say that they were there - it's probably Tilly.
And Pizza Girl isn't a token super hero! I'm pretty sure I remember that she had a nemesis at some point - Taco Belle, or something? Or am I thinking of the guest comic where her pet cat was wearing a cape and costume? This comic is so weird it's hard to remember which bizarre, deranged and utterly mental things that happen in it are 'real' or not.Last edited by Wraith; 2018-01-25 at 06:22 PM.
~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
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2018-01-25, 07:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2014
Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence
That was a guest comic by Milholland (Something*Positive creator) where Pizza Girl was sad that it looked like Faye wouldn't be becoming her sidekick any time soon. I recall a theoretical name being mentioned for Sidekick!Faye, but I don't recall what it was, and I don't recall if a villainous nemesis was mentioned either.
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2018-01-25, 07:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2009
- Location
- NYC
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2018-01-25, 07:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2005
- Location
- NJ
- Gender
Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence
Tokenism isn't the right word.. it's more like...what's that thing. when you say something like it's provocative and controversial but in reality you are just parroting the things your social group already believes? It's like this bland no-risk statement that doesn't accomplish anything.
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2018-01-25, 07:35 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
- Location
- The Lakes
Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence
"Agender"?
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2018-01-25, 07:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- Dancin' away
- Gender
Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence
Yeah, that's a thing.
Gender identity has a very long history, and there have been multiple cultures that have gender identities outside the traditional binary of Western culture - anthropologists have been eating that stuff up for as long as they've been a field.
People think this stuff is new, but it has a very long antiquity.i am going to make it through this year
if it kills me
i am going to make it though this year
if it kills me
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2018-01-25, 07:44 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
- Location
- The Lakes
Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence
OK, I knew it was a thing, I just couldn't remember if that was the right (or a right) name for it.
Some of the things I've read about "genders" that might be considered unconventional have been fascinating. Some cultures have tried to incorporate other points on the grid, so to speak, and some cultures (and not just the west, this is not a "evil Euro imperialist" nonsense thing) have tried very hard to shove everyone into exactly two little boxes.It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2018-01-25, 09:50 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
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- Holy Kingdom of Faergus
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Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence
This comic's subtitle: SUBTLE, Amanda
As subtle as a brick to the head, mayhaps.R.I.P. Wrecan, he was a true organizer and a gentleman.
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2018-01-25, 10:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2012
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- Montreal
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Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence
I think this clearly shows what i meant by acceptable limits.
The so-called interloper understand that this is like Inception. The idea/epiphany has to come from Fayes herself. Anyone actually spelling out the potential relationship might cause interference.
This is the limits of acceptable meddling. Someone outright stating that you would make a cute couple with Person X is going too far. Or even someone trying to manipulate you to spend time with Person X.
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2018-01-26, 03:56 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2013
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2018-01-26, 05:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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- England
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Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence
I thought asexual was a form of genderqueer? Oh well; duly noted, I'm not trying to get hung up on labels, so long as you got the point.
Originally Posted by Beelzebub1111
Originally Posted by Yana
One; For goodness' sake, Faye is best friends with Dora (bisexual), is friends with Tai (gay/poly), lives with Claire (trans), works with Bubbles (complicated) and has spent more than 5 minutes in Pintsize's presence (REALLY complicated)! She probably knows more about the LGBT+ spectrum than Amanda and Evie put together, why is she placidly sitting there letting a stranger explain it to her like grade school sex ed?
Two; I really am starting to think that Jeph has begun writing his comic just to annoy people on Twitter. Given the issues that he's tackled previously in the comic and the reasonably sensitive and comprehensive way that he's done so, this is pretty lame writing and just feels like him baiting idiots, which isn't a particularly great story for the rest of us.
Don't get me wrong, he's righteous and correct. I'm just tired of being spoon-fed the plot by characters who we've never seen before and, by the end of next week, we're probably not going to see again like a convenient exposition machine.~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
RPG Characters What I Done Played As (Explained Badly)
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2018-01-26, 06:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
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- NYC
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2018-01-26, 08:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
- Location
- Dancin' away
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Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence
Also, as far as we know, only three characters are aware that Claire is trans: Marten, Clinton, and Bubbles. We can't assume that Faye knows.
i am going to make it through this year
if it kills me
i am going to make it though this year
if it kills me
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2018-01-26, 09:21 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence
As I said at the time, we don't know what their gender or sexual identity is. They could simply be someone that finds the very existence of gendered pronouns detrimental to society and therefore would prefer neutral ones for all cases, even if they do have a gender or sexual identity that does have an assigned pronoun in English.
Relevant:
GWLast edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2018-01-26 at 09:29 AM.
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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2018-01-26, 09:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Switzerland
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Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence
With Pintsize, I just think he's doing like 90% of what he's doing to irritate people around him because he thinks it's funny. Who knows if he actually cares about sex, other than as a means to squick people.
As for Eevie, yeah, this entire thing is weird. She's doing this based on... an hour with Faye and about 5 minutes with Bubbles? Waaaay out of line.Resident Vancian Apologist
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2018-01-26, 09:51 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
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- The Lakes
Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence
That's also possible. I even agree to the extent that we could really use a working, singular third person pronoun that doesn't assume gender/sex, and that doesn't sound awkward in some constructions because it's also a plural (they), and that doesn't at least imply that the person is an object (it).
But it's also very useful to have pronouns that do differentiate in some way just for ease of conversation... when referring to two other people, just being able to keep things clear by saying "he" and "she" and "they" instead of "they" and "they" and "they" does wonders for avoiding confusion.Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2018-01-26 at 09:51 AM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2018-01-26, 09:57 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence
Plus whatever she and Faye's sister have deduced from Faye's communications with her sister. Reminds me a bit of a moment in A Miracle of Science
"What does your mother's intuition tell you?"
"Ninety percent of her [communications] has been about him"
Faye may have been gushing about her robot friend for months to her sister, meaning they had a very good idea of what they were walking into before they even arrived.
English seems to manage fine in the second person despite only having the second person plural in use anymore. Using the same techniques for the third person is a natural next step.
Also, I'm not trying to convince anyone to do it, just pointing out they might believe this and stick to their beliefs.
Grey WolfLast edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2018-01-26 at 10:02 AM.
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
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Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2018-01-26, 10:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
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- NJ
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Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence
Nothing, and that's kind of the problem. Maybe I'm explaining myself poorly. but it's the way its presented. LIke this page right here. Pretty much everyone reading this page, already knows about and agrees with everything being said, so...why are we saying it in the first place? It feels like he wants a gold star for having the "correct opinions" on social matters. I don't want to give him the satisfaction.
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2018-01-26, 10:04 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
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- The Lakes
Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence
Or she could have said almost nothing beyond "I have a robot repair shop now, my business partner is a robot, how are you doing?"
Faye didn't know about Evie at all, IIRC, so I don't think we can assume Amanda heard much about Bubbles, either.
In general, I'm not a proponent of fan-speculation about what could have happened but was never shown in-fiction or even mentioned by the characters, as a way of justifying what we do see happen.
I often find "you" causes problems, especially between the specific "you" and the general "you" (also not to be confused with General Hu).
Sometimes I'm so concerned that someone will take a statement intended to be general ("When you do X, then Y results") as specific accusation ("You did X, so Y resulted.") that I'll fall back on "When one does X, then Y results." even though it sounds archaic to many readers these days.Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2018-01-26 at 10:11 AM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2018-01-26, 10:06 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
- Location
- The Lakes
Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2018-01-26, 10:21 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence
We know that Faye didn't know about Evie not because she and her sister don't discuss these matters, but because Faye only pays attention to phone calls, while her sister also uses PMs.
Now, if you want everything spelled out for you before you accept it, fine, but leaving out routine, plausible communications because the author couldn't find a joke or a plot reason to include them is extremely common - just like we seldom see characters eating, unless like here it is part of the scenario. No-one would complain that {character} should be starving right now because we never see them eat. I am therefore also not willing to call out Evie as jumping to conclusions because I wouldn't be surprised if Faye had gushed over Bubbles without realising it over the phone, just as we have seen her give herself away more than once in this conversation alone.
Grey WolfInterested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
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2018-01-26, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
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- The Lakes
Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence
OK, fair, I'd forgotten about the phone calls and PMs thing.
(And as someone who flatly refuses to touch Facebook, etc, I sympathize with Faye -- I still miss out on some things because certain friends assume without thought that "everyone has Facebook now" no matter how often it comes up that I do not.)It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.