PF Wizard 20 VS China Army?

[Segev]

Since nothing has changed with the world other than learning from those who have come before us, cavemen had just as much access to nuclear power as the common man has access to magic.
There are level 20 wizards in DnD because they have been researching for centuries (and possibly had the gods helping them). I'd put "takes a while to learn" at a few generations unless someone can make a decent argument for how computers can help in the research.

Similarly, unless the Wizard is able to convince others to teach him about mundane weapons of war, I'd think he would fail to grasp nuclear weapons or even basic aircraft.

EDIT: and if we're bringing DnD training into it; where are the earthlings going to find enough fodder to kill in order to level? We don't have goblins. Our greatest chance at survival is that gold is so expensive that the Wizard will have trouble finding enough things to act as Materials for powerful spells.

Knowing something is possible goes a long way to jump-starting learning how to do it, but I was more leaving room for somebody to learn by either studying the wizard, studying his works, or by out-and-out apprenticing to him.

And the wizard probably only cares about nukes and other modern tech as much as you or I do: how do you use it, and how do you stay safe from it? What's its radius of effect? Range? How is it targeted?

But if he wants to learn, he is a super-genius who can magically compel people to teach him. Or charm them. Or just fool them into thinking he's a smart but backwards individual.

All of this is largely beside the point; my point was that we should be faithful to the spirit of the question, and assume that the wizard is bringing his magical powers to bear in a world otherwise-indistinguishable from our own, and see how that works out for him and the world.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Well, I don't know what ways there are in PF to cast in dead magic areas, as I said. In 3.5, it would result in a somewhat limited, but by no means powerless wizard (depending on interpretation, dead magic might be a subset of limited magic, so that rings of free casting work, there's invoke magic, etc....)

With some planning and forethought (which 3.5 wizards are known for and can do very easily), planting an oak tree on a plane with the enhanced magic trait, creating an acorn of far travel with a nonmagical device, from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood, and keeping it on his person would allow him to completely ignore the dead magic trait after he 'ported in. He just needs to make sure the plane is timeless in regards to magic, so its duration (and that of all of his other buffs) will never run out.

There are a couple of blatant attack vectors that absolutely, positively require magic to counter. The most blatant is being incorporeal and not subject to holy water (thus bypassing any question of whether real-world holy water is transparent with D&D/PF holy water).

It's not. D&D holy water is created via magic. Real world "holy water" is just tap water that someone lies about.

[Segev]

It's not. D&D holy water is created via magic. Real world "holy water" is just tap water that someone lies about.

Let's please not troll in ways that violate the forum rules. Claiming that all holy water is a lie is attacking people's religious beliefs.

Also, D&D holy water isn't pure water; it has silver dust in it, I believe. I am not sure whether various religions on Earth require ingredients other than water for their holy water.

Spoiler: For those interested, one religion's application of the concept

Show

I know my own faith doesn't have special "holy" water; we just bless it before we take it as part of the sacrament (the other part being bread). We do have consecrated oil; it's simple vegetable oil over which a specific prayer is said by a priesthood holder while the oil is in an open container of any sort. We then use it for anointing if we need to; some blessings require it. But there are no special properties about it, chemically, to my knowledge.

That said, it's again, a matter of faith whether you believe it does anything differently than unconsecrated oil, water, or anything else.


Pulling us out of dangerous waters, it is of note that in the Dresden Files, Harry Dresden is known to his local catholic priest because it's rare for said priest to get orders of holy water by the barrel. Harry needed it to handle some vampires; it apparently works as advertised in the Dresdenverse.

Buffy's universe also seems to have functioning holy water; I think it's literally a magic spell to bless it, because Giles and Willow seem to be the chief manufacturers of the Scooby Squad's supply. It's been ages since I watched Buffy, though, so I could be misremembering.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Animals. In a previous thread along these same lines, where the question devolved into "a Wizard 1 from D&D world appears on Earth", I proposed that the wizard would use magic in secret, but would mostly kill things with hunting rifles. Hunting licenses give them a good reason to get into fights with moderately difficult-to-defeat animals, and modern Earth has developed a lot of ways to kill things without magic. Once the wizard is high enough level to Polymorph, he can do away with the hunting licenses and start poaching bigger creatures that are more threatening (and tend to be rarer). Eventually he can graduate to hunting down Giant Squids, which will see him top out somewhere around lvl 18-19. Presumably, at least a small portion of IRL people could do the same, assuming that the general population figured out that killing things would give them XP (the nerds would probably make the connection first, for obvious reasons). At this point, the world could very well descend into anarchy as people seek out other people to kill as well (since other people can level up, they'd actually be more threatening than animals usually).

If I started today with enough XP to level up to wizard 1, I could be epic (with NI levels) within the week, even without access to anything but humans and Earth animals. And the only reason it would even take that long is because it takes time to regain spells.

Let's please not troll in ways that violate the forum rules. Claiming that all holy water is a lie is attacking people's religious beliefs.

I didn't attack anything. Saying I did is specious, at best. The only way to create holy water is via magic. By this thread's very premise, we can't use magic, so actual holy water doesn't exist.

[Xar Zarath]

...assume that the wizard is bringing his magical powers to bear in a world otherwise-indistinguishable from our own, and see how that works out for him and the world.

This also. When I start threads like this, it is already assumed that magic is functioning in our universe otherwise the thread cannot progress as without his magic, it wouldn't be a Wizard VS earth thing...

Also as pointed out while magic may exist in our world for the purposes of this scenario, magical knowledge and study doesn't exist because there is no previous studies or learning to support the advancement of magic to become even a fully fledge Wizard 1.

Rather it will take time, time that even the Wizard 20 can exploit. Whether to teach us so he can drain the xp out and use it for his own purposes or just going "nope" and proceeds to extend his destructive plans to the rest of the planet remains to be seen. Although I welcome any posts on the scenarios...

[Segev]

I didn't attack anything. Saying I did is specious, at best. The only way to create holy water is via magic. By this thread's very premise, we can't use magic, so actual holy water doesn't exist.

You did. You didn't couch it in terms of 'within the context of this thread' or posit that it should be different. You said it's real if it's done with a D&D spell but that anybody who says they make it IRL is lying. Perhaps you didn't mean it, but the very clear implication is that anybody who claims IRL to make holy water is lying.

That is an attack on real world religions and those who believe in them.

Maybe you didn't mean it that way; if so, you need to be more careful how you phrase things. Accusing people of lying about their deeply-held beliefs is, in fact, an attack on them and their beliefs.

Now, I suggest we drop this.

[khadgar567]

You did. You didn't couch it in terms of 'within the context of this thread' or posit that it should be different. You said it's real if it's done with a D&D spell but that anybody who says they make it IRL is lying. Perhaps you didn't mean it, but the very clear implication is that anybody who claims IRL to make holy water is lying.

That is an attack on real world religions and those who believe in them.

Maybe you didn't mean it that way; if so, you need to be more careful how you phrase things. Accusing people of lying about their deeply-held beliefs is, in fact, an attack on them and their beliefs.

Now, I suggest we drop this.

agreed with the evil CEO

[Conradine]

My modest opinion is that a level ONE Wizard, with careful use of Hypnosis ( that allow to implant permanent behiavour modifications ) can, given enough time, conquer the real world.

[zimmerwald1915]

Technically I would consider Earth and the universe its in to have magic. And as for the scenario in this thread, then yes Earth operates normally regarding to magic similar to Golarion in PF for all intents and purposes.

No need for assumptions. Earth, albeit 1921 Earth, exists in the PF campaign setting, and magic works normally on it.

[Strigon]

My modest opinion is that a level ONE Wizard, with careful use of Hypnosis ( that allow to implant permanent behiavour modifications ) can, given enough time, conquer the real world.

Well, considering how many people in real life have come close to that goal, I don't think that's an unrealistic assertion in the slightest.

[Hecuba]

It's not. D&D holy water is created via magic. Real world "holy water" is just tap water that someone lies about.

D&D holy water can be created by magic, but there is nothing indicating it has to be. In fact, I would probably err on the side of that not being the case: good temples produce and sell it at cost - regardless of whether they have anyone capable of casting spells. Additionally, the holy water itself is explicitly not supernatural or magical. Moreover, if we presume that magic can function in the real world- one of the premises of a debate like this- then we have no way to test whether or not that is the case until we encounter an undead or demon to test on.

Taken as a whole, it seems at least plausable that a ritual or a natural process or something else that makes holy water without magical intervention. If we take that as a given (and also take the premise that things like magic and undead are real in some reachable alternate plane - a requisite premise for this discussion) , it is then at least plausible that one or more of the rituals used by real world churches to make their holy water could qualify.

If you do come across an undead to test on, please make sure to record the testing and the results and get back to me. Until then, when discussing incorporeality in threads like this one, I will continue to advise for methods of incorporeality that are not tied to undeath or being an evil outsider. I do this not because of any particular inclination to believe that real-world holy water would work for such an application. Rather, because I lack the means to demonstrate that it could not possibly work, I choose to tactic where it will not matter whether or not it does.

[Someguy231]

This is why we need to kill ALL spellcasters before they get to this power. They are a threat to this world and they must be stopped!

[ryu]

This is why we need to kill ALL spellcasters before they get to this power. They are a threat to this world and they must be stopped!

The problem with taking that stance to people with that power is that it just ensures they kill us all rather than usher in some glorious post scarcity, physics screwing utopia.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The problem with taking that stance to people with that power is that it just ensures they kill us all rather than usher in some glorious post scarcity, physics screwing utopia.

Don't worry; he's just someguy on the internet, someplace where wizards are likely to never go.

[Ravanan]

Strategically, by the scenario we've already stacked the deck in favor of the wizard without her casting a single spell.

• We're assuming she knows about her opponent, while her opponent is not even aware of her existence. Consider the differences if the army were instead transported with all their resources into that world? They could potentially scout out the wizard's tower (because it's always a tower for some reason) without him being aware of it. See Invisibility, True Seeing...neither counters mundane stealth (camoflage, active camo). Does Invisibility block other forms of electromagnetic radiation? Infrared, xray, radio? If not, then one of the wizard's best stealth tools is considerably mitigated. Just as initiative is important in the tactical level, it's at least as important in the strategic level.
• We're assuming fantasy D&DPF mechanics for the wizard, and more or less real world mechanics for the army. For instance, it has long been acknowledged that the hit points system is hilariously unrealistic at virtually every level (housecat: Commoner-bane; Dragon Breath: Totally survivable to a 20th level anything), and then you're assuming nukes as dealing as much damage as an intensified fireball? (To be fair, I believe d20 future lists it as 16d8 vs ships, and then ship weapons have a x10 damage modifier against humans). To say nothing of being at 1/230 hp doing nothing to degrade your capabilities while a human soldier will obey actual biological laws (where losing half your hp is more likely to end you up in a hospital or otherwise in urgent need of medical attention). Two dozens snipers vs a wizard?
• Most 20+ level wizards in the actual canon of various settings tend to not behave the way a 20th level PC does. Perhaps because they are actual "people" rather than a nerdy power fantasy archetype, perhaps because PCs are far more likely to "optimize" and in strict situation/resolution terms get a fairly hefty power boost (how many players are "optimized" the way a PC is?).

[Florian]

As with similar questions, this one is simply plain stupid as it comes down to laws of physics.

Should our laws not apply, the Chinese army will spam wish and be done with it.

[Segev]

The assumption is that the wizard has the element of surprise, yes. He knows he's in a new place, and deploys his resources to learn about it before acting overtly. Even if he's "caught" immediately upon arrival, most societies will think him a bit weird but leave him alone unless he does something stupid to draw hostile attention to himself before he's ready to deal with it.

The "Chinese army" going to D&Dworld would have a harder time being quite that stealthy.

The reason the wizard is assumed to have the information advantage really boils down to how much easier and more accurately a wizard can gather military intelligence than even the most advanced and skilled real-world army. Magic divinations are just that good.

Heck, "I cast legend lore on this 'china' that I heard about" would get him 90% of what he needs.

[Liquor Box]

All of this is largely beside the point; my point was that we should be faithful to the spirit of the question, and assume that the wizard is bringing his magical powers to bear in a world otherwise-indistinguishable from our own, and see how that works out for him and the world.

But it's not just bringing magical powers in a world that is otherwise indistinguishable.

First, people are relying on all sorts of things other than magic, concepts like the wizard being able to switch planes, which requires the existence of other planes (something we don't know to exist).

Second, it also requires the magic to not only exist, but to prevail over real world physics - in the real world if you heat a human up enough he will die, but in DnD you can get immunity to fire - which one prevails.

Third, we are assuming that the new concept would not be effected by real world things. For example, if incorporality existed in the real world (which it does not as far as we know), it may be effected by nuclear radiation or "damage types" that don't exist in the DnD universe. But we are assuming it will not.

Fourth, as your last post acknowledges, is assumes that the wizard would arrive on our world, study it and make plans, before the chinese army even knows of its existence (I don't see that the chinese army would have a problem assessing a DnD world in a stealthy way - it could send a few operatives through in advance). Casting legend law assumes that the wizard knows to inquire about china before china even knows of the possible existence of wizards.



If those are the assumptions we have in this scenario, that is fine. But the environment does seem to me to stack the deck in favour of the wizard. It's like discussing a fight between a shark and a lion, but having it take place in the ocean.

[Segev]

If those are the assumptions we have in this scenario, that is fine. But the environment does seem to me to stack the deck in favour of the wizard. It's like discussing a fight between a shark and a lion, but having it take place in the ocean.

Given that the scenario presented is "wizard arrives on Earth," that is the scenario.

The reverse: China arrives in D&Dworld, would have similar assumptions...but the lack of China's ability to be nearly as undetected as one guy would cause problems from the get-go.

Unless the wizard arrives in some sort of flashy way and immediately is taken down in some fashion that overrides his layered defenses (as we tend to assume 20th level wizards have), he's going to have the means to "disappear" and start figuring out what questions to ask. Assuming other planes exist is part of assuming his magic works as it says it does.

If you want to make the scenario one where the wizard arrived in a manner that drew attention, fine, but that only gives the Chinese army warning that "something weird" happened, and they need to figure out what. They might start a manhunt. Not knowing the powers of this wizard, they won't know what to protect against. They can certainly try to find out.


I'm not sure what environmental changes you want to make to this scenario that won't invalidate it being China's army that's the primary foe (as opposed to some modern fantasy army that we base off of china's army), and it being a 20th level PF wizard (as opposed to a guy who, if he were in a setting with magic, would be a PF wizard, but is actually just a really smart guy with knowledge largely inapplicable to this world).

[Liquor Box]

Given that the scenario presented is "wizard arrives on Earth," that is the scenario.

Well no, that alone is not the scenario - the scenario seems to be that wizard arrives on a version of earth which has been altered so that magic exists, various other DnD concepts (like incorporality and alternative planes) exist, and where the foundations of earth's power (using technology to manipulate matter and energy) is trumped by the magic and other concepts.
If the scenario was simply that wizard arrived on earth as it is now, the wizard would lose.

The reverse: China arrives in D&Dworld, would have similar assumptions...but the lack of China's ability to be nearly as undetected as one guy would cause problems from the get-go.

I don't think china would have much trouble going undetected at all. It would be relatively simple for it to put agents into the DnD world. But that is not the point.

I'm not sure what environmental changes you want to make to this scenario that won't invalidate it being China's army that's the primary foe (as opposed to some modern fantasy army that we base off of china's army), and it being a 20th level PF wizard (as opposed to a guy who, if he were in a setting with magic, would be a PF wizard, but is actually just a really smart guy with knowledge largely inapplicable to this world).

Seems to me that there are three general ways of handling it:
1. This occurs on something that is the real world, but with the wizard inserted into it. There is no magic or planes or incorporality or way to trump physics by staying alive at thousands of degrees celsius. The wizard (who would still be a pf wizard despite not being able to use his magic) loses.
2. This occurs on something that is basically the DnD world (or the real world made to function by DnD rules), with the chinese inserted into it. The Chinese' understanding of the way the world functions is wrong and their weapons don't have the effects they ordinarily would. The Chinese have no opportunity to learn how to function on this world or to interact (resist or control) the new concepts therein. The Chinese lose.
3. This occurs on a hypothetical world where DnD concepts such as magic, planes and incorporality exist and are known to exist. Both sides have the opportunity to adapt to the altered surroundings. For example, if the rules of this world are that nuclear radiation effect incorporeals the wizard would probably know this and would not rely on incorporeality to avoid nuclear blasts, it may even research a resist radiation type spell. The Chinese would not employ magic themselves (that going against the core concept here) but may develop technological solutions to deal with some of the new concepts this world entails - maybe a technological way to change planes.

It seems to me that the first and second are like the shark and bear fight in deep water or on land. In either case the result is obvious because the environment stacks the deck. The third is far from perfect (what happens when physics conflicts with magic?, what tech solutions would the chinese have is they existed in the alternative world?) but it seems to be to be the only scenario where both parties have the opportunity to bring their power to bear on the other in any meaningful way. Maybe analogous to the shark vs bear in shallow water.

The original poster has clarified that he was thinking of the second scenario, or a variation thereof. That's fine, it's his thread. But in that case I think the answer is obvious.

[Ravanan]

Okay, then.
Tweaks:
Wizard with his tower and entire workforce/facilities/equipment/soldiery of the Chinese military-industrial complex are warped into a cube in Acheron by a deific force. All astral connections are severed, so planeshifting is impossible (though there is a local ethereal plane, allowing incorporeality and teleportation within the cube), both parties told the only way to leave is when the either side is wiped out. Sufficient natural resources for fortifications and equipment to be built, easily accessible by either side.

There, we've set out a nice even playing field where both sides have full access to the resources they need to wipe the other side out, while simultaneously disallowing either side to call upon external allies so that we are just having the level 20 Pathfinder wizard fighting the Chinese army.

We still have the issue of which set of physics get to take precedence, but at least you aren't handing the victory away before the battle begins.

Or perhaps I'm misunderstanding this whole exercise. Maybe this is just intended be another discussion of how lolOPed Wizards are. I think the tier discussion sufficiently proved that point, but hey, have fun with it, and I'll bow out if so. I may do so anyway rather than try to hammer out how to reconcile hit points with real world health.

[Liquor Box]

[*]Most 20+ level wizards in the actual canon of various settings tend to not behave the way a 20th level PC does. Perhaps because they are actual "people" rather than a nerdy power fantasy archetype, perhaps because PCs are far more likely to "optimize" and in strict situation/resolution terms get a fairly hefty power boost (how many players are "optimized" the way a PC is?).[/LIST]

This point is spot on in a general sense.

I was discussing wizard vulnerabilities in another thread, and some people seemed to genuinely propose that all (not just some, but all) high level wizards would never (not just infrequently, but never) leave their own pocked plane, except to go adventuring for a couple of hours every few weeks. This was on the basis of "why would any wizard ever want to leave his own plane and visit the real world?".

[Extra Anchovies]

a nerdy power fantasy archetype

You say this as if anything that's ever been printed in a fantasy roleplaying book wasn't based in, well, fantasy. Some people want to play Elric, some people want to play Gandalf, some people want to play Hercules; it's all the same in that respect.

perhaps because PCs are far more likely to "optimize" and in strict situation/resolution terms get a fairly hefty power boost (how many players are "optimized" the way a PC is?)

Did you get to choose your own genetics and the environment you were brought up in? No, of course you didn't. But the players get to control what characters they play - putting an 18 in Intelligence doesn't mean you're taking some protean wizard-creature and making it smarter, it means you're looking at all the possible characters to play and narrowing it down to those with 18 Intelligence. Selecting powerful character options means the character you picked happened to be a character who took those options in-setting.

I was discussing wizard vulnerabilities in another thread, and some people seemed to genuinely propose that all (not just some, but all) high level wizards would never (not just infrequently, but never) leave their own pocked plane, except to go adventuring for a couple of hours every few weeks. This was on the basis of "why would any wizard ever want to leave his own plane and visit the real world?".

A 9ths-capable wizard is a super-supergenius. They are at bare minimum in the 99th percentile of human intelligence, assuming 4d6 drop lowest (anydice input found here). With items, a higher starting Int, and possibly Wishes they'd have an Intelligence approaching or exceeding 30. That's smarter than a significant number of literal gods. If normal humans like us can look at the Astral Projection spell - the body text of which would make perfect sense to a character in-setting - and see its use in ensuring personal safety, they inarguably see it as well.

[Liquor Box]

Did you get to choose your own genetics and the environment you were brought up in? No, of course you didn't. But the players get to control what characters they play - putting an 18 in Intelligence doesn't mean you're taking some protean wizard-creature and making it smarter, it means you're looking at all the possible characters to play and narrowing it down to those with 18 Intelligence. Selecting powerful character options means the character you picked happened to be a character who took those options in-setting.

I think the point was not that players are 'wrong' to select somewhat optimal options for their wizard characters. I think the point was that most wizards in a given setting will not be optimised in that way.

Even NPC wizards are likely to be somewhat optimised, in that they are likely to have above average intelligence - otherwise they would not select (or be selected for) the class of wizard and would not do well at it. But this would not require anywhere near the degree of optimisation that we see in most PC wizards.

I suppose, in the present context, that begs the question of whether the wizard is a highly optimised PC wizard, or a 'let genetics and environment determine most of my abilities' NPC wizard.

To be honest, in this scenarion I don't think it makes a huge difference.

A 9ths-capable wizard is a super-supergenius. They are at bare minimum in the 99th percentile of human intelligence, assuming 4d6 drop lowest (anydice input found here). With items, a higher starting Int, and possibly Wishes they'd have an Intelligence approaching or exceeding 30. That's smarter than a significant number of literal gods. If normal humans like us can look at the Astral Projection spell - the body text of which would make perfect sense to a character in-setting - and see its use in ensuring personal safety, they inarguably see it as well.

Sure, I agree that any high level wizard would realise the value of various spells and tactics. But we cannot assume that they are super-risk averse risk averse. I doubt actual humans in the 99th percentile consistently hole themselves up in the equivalent (panic rooms I suppose) for eternity. It's not like wizards are totally defenseless as soon as they leave the house.

[ryu]

I think the point was not that players are 'wrong' to select somewhat optimal options for their wizard characters. I think the point was that most wizards in a given setting will not be optimised in that way.

Even NPC wizards are likely to be somewhat optimised, in that they are likely to have above average intelligence - otherwise they would not select (or be selected for) the class of wizard and would not do well at it. But this would not require anywhere near the degree of optimisation that we see in most PC wizards.

I suppose, in the present context, that begs the question of whether the wizard is a highly optimised PC wizard, or a 'let genetics and environment determine most of my abilities' NPC wizard.

To be honest, in this scenarion I don't think it makes a huge difference.



Sure, I agree that any high level wizard would realise the value of various spells and tactics. But we cannot assume that they are super-risk averse risk averse. I doubt actual humans in the 99th percentile consistently hole themselves up in the equivalent (panic rooms I suppose) for eternity. It's not like wizards are totally defenseless as soon as they leave the house.

Actual humans in the 99th percentile don't do that because they don't have to deal with even a fraction of what a level twenty character is expected on a daily basis during the entirety of their lives. If that wording was confusing I was stating that a level 20 adventure deals with orders of magnitude more in a single relatively average day than the sum total of people on this forum will deal with in their entire lives.

[Xar Zarath]

...snip...

Might I suggest a demiplane instead for the intrepid Wizard. PF has much more clearly defined spells regarding demiplanes and their creation.

[Hecuba]

Sure, I agree that any high level wizard would realise the value of various spells and tactics. But we cannot assume that they are super-risk averse risk averse. I doubt actual humans in the 99th percentile consistently hole themselves up in the equivalent (panic rooms I suppose) for eternity. It's not like wizards are totally defenseless as soon as they leave the house.

You don't have to be particularly risk averse to interact with the world through astral projection when the only downside to doing so is a need to avoid one particular kind of weapon. If you have a secure place to put your real body, why would you ever not astral project?

[Segev]

Well no, that alone is not the scenario - the scenario seems to be that wizard arrives on a version of earth which has been altered so that magic exists, various other DnD concepts (like incorporality and alternative planes) exist, and where the foundations of earth's power (using technology to manipulate matter and energy) is trumped by the magic and other concepts.
If the scenario was simply that wizard arrived on earth as it is now, the wizard would lose.

"If a marine fights Goku, but the universe is the real one where Goku can't fly, use chi, or have skin that can survive a bullet, nor can he move faster than human physical prowess would allow, who would win?" is not the same question as "Who would win in a fight between a marine and Goku?"

"Who would win in a fight between Goku and Superman where neither of them have superpowers because those don't work in the real world?" is not the same question as "Who would win in a fight between Goku and Superman?"

"What happens in a fight between Cthulhu and an F-22 Raptor?" is not the same as "What happens in a fight between Cthulhu and an F-22 Raptor where Cthulhu has to obey the square-cube law just like everything else?"

"What happens if an Evangelion is unleashed on a modern battlefield, but AT-fields don't work because they don't work in the real world?" is not the same question as "What happens in a fight between an Evangelion and a modern military?"



The inherent assumption in "What happens when X and Y meet/fight/interact?" is that X and Y both have the properties you normally associate with them, nothing more and nothing less. "The wizard in a dead magic world is still a wizard, he just can't use any magic or anything else that would make him actually recognizable as a wizard" is a specious argument. Technically true, but it's like telling somebody that they get unlimited wishes, only to reveal that you never promised those wishes would be granted.

[Hecuba]

"The wizard in a dead magic world is still a wizard, he just can't use any magic or anything else that would make him actually recognizable as a wizard" is a specious argument.

Actually, I find that one kind of interesting for certain situations - 3.5 has ways to cast magic in dead magic areas. It would allow a very mechanically interesting way to delve into how much we can cripple a wizard before he can't overcome it.

But I don't know the rules for dead magic in PF well enough to delve into it without some serious reading. In fact, I'm not even positive off the top of my head that they explicitly have things like Invoke Magic.

[Vogonjeltz]

To the people suggesting a shadopocalypse, remember that incorporeal creatures must remain within 5 feet of open space at all times. This means a reasonably thick wall can still contain them, meaning humanity could hide in underground shelters and such.

Also, Holy Water is relatively easy to mass produce.

Intersection of worlds? What intersection of worlds? The wizard decided to shift worlds one day, then he did. Then he made a nice safe, undetectable haven and started divining. Books never enter the equation.

Where exactly would qualify as a "safe haven"? How is the Wizard feeding themselves? Avoiding someone just stumbling into or across their lair? Paying for any of their material costs? It's not like they have anything that anyone would consider money, and trying to pass gold or other metallic coinage would be placing a giant blinking red sign saying: I AM UNUSUAL YOU SHOULD CHECK ME OUT; which is probably the opposite of what this supposedly intelligent wizard is going for.

No matter how intelligent the Wizard is, it's going to take them years if not decades to catch up on physics and have even a passing comprehension of how most technology works. These are people who have to paying 1000 gold for a primative clock.

Imagine how they'd react to seeing modern tech like a car or plane. Those would blow their medieval little minds. They'd probably end up insane.