A ranger revamp(3.5, PEACH)

[bobthe6th]

ok, after descution, things have changed. Now I will remake the ranger three times over.

the first shall be a sneaky woodsman, a rogue focused on sneaking more then door opening.

the secound will be a more standard re make to bring it up to ToB speed in melee.

the third shall be a fully brewed version in which I fix things that annoy me as I go (like TWF and other such anoyances).

wish me luck!

the first

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Custom

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+0|+0|+2|+0|Poison Use, Hunters strike +1d6

2nd|+1|+0|+3|+0|1 Stealth

3rd|+2|+1|+3|+1|Hunters strike +2d6

4th|+3|+1|+4|+1|

5th|+3|+1|+4|+1|Hunters strike +3d6

6th|+4|+2|+5|+2|2 Stealth

7th|+5|+2|+5|+2|Hunters strike +4d6

8th|+6/+1|+2|+6|+2|

9th|+6/+1|+3|+6|+3|Hunters strike +5d6

10th|+7/+2|+3|+7|+3|3 Stealth

11th|+8/+3|+3|+7|+3|Hunters strike +6d6

12th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+4|

13th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+4|Hunters strike +7d6

14th|+10/+5|+4|+9|+4|4 Stealth

15th|+11/+6/+1|+5|+9|+5|Hunters strike +8d6

16th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+5|

17th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+5|Hunters strike +9d6

18th|+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+6|5 Stealth

19th|+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+6|Hunters strike +10d6

20th|+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+6|

[/table]
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d8

Class Skills:
Class Skills
Skill Points at 1st Level: (8 + Int modifier) × 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 8 + Int modifier

the second

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so the changes
removed:favored enamy(all of it), animal companion, spell casting, wild empathy,
gained:sneak attack, improved evasion, uncanny dodge
chainged: evasion comes at 4, improved at 9, hide in plain sight and camo moved down a level. two more combat style feats at 14 and 18, add a capstone

1:track, sneak attack +1d6
2:combat style
3:Endurance, Sneak attack +2d6
4:evasion
5:Uncanny dodge,+3d6 sneak attack
6:improved combat style
7:Woodland stride, +4d6 sneak attack
8:swift tracker
9:improved evasion, +5d6 sneak attack
10:Improved uncanny dodge
11:Combat style mastery, +6d6 sneak attack
12:Camouflage
13:+7d6 sneak attack
14:Combat style
15:+8d6 sneak attack
16:Hide in plain sight
17:+9d6 sneak attack
18:Combat style
19:+10d6 sneak attack
20:some cap stone I can't think of

the third

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1: sneak attack +1d6
2:combat style
3:
4:evasion
5:Uncanny dodge,+2d6 sneak attack
6:combat style
7:
8:
9:improved evasion, +3d6 sneak attack
10:combat style, Improved uncanny dodge
11:
12:
13:+4d6 sneak attack
14:Combat style
15:
16:
17:+5d6 sneak attack
18:Combat style
19:
20:some cap stone I can't think of

remake the combat styles.

TWF:
combat style: two weapon flury: When you attack with your main hand weapon you can chose to attack with your any off hand weapons you are wielding. This imposes a -4 penalty to the attack(-2 if the off hand weapon is light). They use the same attack roll, but roll separately for damage and apply bonus damage separately. this ability cannot be used in conjunction with the two weapon fighting special attack.
at sixth level and every four levels thereafter, you can make an additional attack with your main hand weapon when you charge.

improved combat style: parrying knife: when wielding a weapon in your off hand, you get a +1 shield bonus to armor class, +1 per 4 ranger levels. additionaly, the penalty for using two weapon flury is reduced to -2 (-1 if the off hand weapon is light)
combat style mastery:

[JetThomasBoat]

As far as balancing issues, I don't think a class that has highest BA progression, a d8 HD, and a series of combat style feats should get sneak attack at every other level. I would say town that down some. Other than that, I would also say it shouldn't get Improved Evasion before a rogue can.

At this point, unless they really need the rogue skill set or the rogue special abilities, no one is going to pick a rogue over this class.

[toapat]

Now i just imagine a bush with a knife sneaking up on someone.

also, Table generator goodness

pretty good, although i think you could mix in a bit from the spellless ranger from Complete Warrior. Its difficult to judge though without the combat styles

[bobthe6th]

just a note for PEACHing, I am trying to bring both the rogue and ranger to T3 with this, which both lack separately. also trying to make them in line with the ToB classes.

this is to replace the rogue to a degree, as it is kinda weak much like the ranger.

it gets improved evasion on level with monk... and only 1 level before rogue. It is really placed as it is because I am trying to kill the dead levels, which are a pain. also, the sneak attack is meant to be a way to add damage to stuff, which is missing other wise... though perhapce making it every 4, but adding pounce+a way to deal SA to immune foes would fill it out...


And I am a lazy person doing a quick varient, so I was avoiding making a full table.

[toapat]

this is to replace the rogue to a degree, as it is kinda weak much like the ranger.

And I am a lazy person doing a quick varient, so I was avoiding making a full table.

It would help to note in the first post for people not coming here from the homerules thread.

all the better that that website exists, it autobuilds the table and lets you see where the problems are

[bobthe6th]

wow... ok that is not what I thought it was(he thought it was a link to the table guide...)

thatis really cool, I will definatly use it.

also... brew urge rising... must remake TWF to not be so terrible...

[JetThomasBoat]

just a note for PEACHing, I am trying to bring both the rogue and ranger to T3 with this, which both lack separately. also trying to make them in line with the ToB classes.

And I am a lazy person doing a quick varient, so I was avoiding making a full table.

Oh, okay, I didn't know you were going for outright replace the rogue. I don't have many suggestions then because I to am a lazy person and have never bothered to look in the ToB much or figure out this tier stuff.

Also, I can't help but think the flavor would suffer. And I'm a sucker for that.

[bobthe6th]

well, I would try to increase the flavor built into both classes. the ranger... had funny flavor, and the rogue had to much "politically correct thief" flavor. With this I would shoot for a more swashbuckler or smart fighter flavor.

[JetThomasBoat]

well, I would try to increase the flavor built into both classes. the ranger... had funny flavor, and the rogue had to much "politically correct thief" flavor. With this I would shoot for a more swashbuckler or smart fighter flavor.

I dunno, I never saw much problem with ranger flavor. To me it seemed like the second biggest fantasy staple. But to each his own.

[Yitzi]

I would agree that "mix in some rogue and excise the druid" is the right approach, but not with sneak attack. (Maybe allow a far harder can-only-be-used-in-a-surprise-round sneak attack, but that's it.) Instead, don't give him any combat boosts (maybe even depower him to a 3/4 BAB and a d6 hit die), but give him 8+INT skillpoints (like a rogue) and bonus abilities with both using and avoiding natural traps (e.g. snares, pits, even avalanches at high levels) and poisons. Give him good and earlier hide boosts (as you did, but consider giving him something to help him avoid blindsense/blindsight now that he now longer can cast Hide from Animals), give him a barbarian's fast movement, and you should have a proper outdoorsman. (Naturally, he's next to useless in a fair fight, but if you get into a fair fight with those abilities you're probably doing it wrong.)

[bobthe6th]

trying... to keep... down... the brew urge... so want... to... remake... whole... system...

also, yitzi... I kind of want to make the ranger idiot proof, and give a way to help in combat...

ok, three versions shall be made. a normal version, in line with rogue but more outdoorsy and less SA. unbrewed ToB version with fair combat abilities. and a full brewed version that remakes the whole twf and archery system.

[JetThomasBoat]

(Maybe allow a far harder can-only-be-used-in-a-surprise-round sneak attack, but that's it.)

So like the Ninja's sudden strike ability?

[bobthe6th]

prehapce a death attack style thing? spend a full round studying your foe from hiding, get +1/2 level d6 damage and other good things?

[toapat]

wow... ok that is not what I thought it was(he thought it was a link to the table guide...)

did i forget to mention it has a GitP setting?

[bobthe6th]

...gods teeth that is... I can't speak any more... or type k a alksd;vj;nam.cxmvnsadvjalv.xmv*brain starts to hemorage*
*dies of sheer awsome*

edit:ghost sees the inline formula system... and is reincarnated by the sheer usefulness of the thing.

edit edit: and of course I get told about this after I get some mastery over the html code...

[toapat]

...gods teeth that is... I can't speak any more... or type k a alksd;vj;nam.cxmvnsadvjalv.xmv*brain starts to hemorage*
*dies of sheer awsome*

edit:ghost sees the inline formula system... and is reincarnated by the sheer usefulness of the thing.

edit edit: and of course I get told about this after I get some mastery over the html code...

ya, i didnt start homebrewing on this forum till i learned that website, way too convenient.

*Quests for a Scroll of True Ressurection*

[bobthe6th]

all those days of mindnumbing tidium making and remaking tables... dear god, the days I spent on it...

[toapat]

all those days of mindnumbing tidium making and remaking tables... dear god, the days I spent on it...

i know, its horrible editing tables, even with that greatness

[Yitzi]

trying... to keep... down... the brew urge... so want... to... remake... whole... system...

I'm working on a remake myself. It is not a minor project, to put it mildly.

also, yitzi... I kind of want to make the ranger idiot proof, and give a way to help in combat...

To me, that really conflicts with the essence of what the ranger is (a cunning and knowledgeable outdoorsman; that concept isn't really idiot-proof. Poisons do help in combat, though.). But it's your revamp, so your decision.

So like the Ninja's sudden strike ability?

No; sudden strike is still usable when you're hidden or invisible or the target is stunned, etc. This would be more similar to the conditions for death attack.

prehapce a death attack style thing? spend a full round studying your foe from hiding, get +1/2 level d6 damage and other good things?

That's pretty much the sort of thing I was thinking of. Although rather than bonus damage, how does an automatic critical (if you hit), possibly with a bonus to the crit multiplier, sound?

[bobthe6th]

like you will end up using x4 crit modifire weapons... all the time. perhapce a flat bonus to crit range? so as a build thing you can chose to gamble a little for a huge crit, or have a huge chance at a flat x2?

heck, how about a progresion of +1d6 at first and every 4 levels, and +2 to your critical range at third and every 4th? end with +5d6 and +10 to your crit range? this is activated after taking a full round action to study a foe, reduced to a standard at 6th, and a move at 12th?

edit: hell, your spending a round to kill a thing, which you should in one round... how about +10 damage that multiplies on a crit, the crit range, and at 10 it forces a DC 10+dex modifire+1/2 ranger level or death by massive damage. at level 4 it deals half damage to crit imune foes, at 8th full damage.


that sound good?

[Yitzi]

like you will end up using x4 crit modifire weapons... all the time.

Not really, as X4 modifier weapons tend to be melee, and that makes it nearly impossible to set up a death attack type scenario with a ranger's skills (which do not include Bluff; I'd actually go further and require that the ranger not be detected at all.) Better just to use a bow for a X3 modifier, which is really what the ranger would be using anyway.

perhapce a flat bonus to crit range? so as a build thing you can chose to gamble a little for a huge crit, or have a huge chance at a flat x2?

Nah, as I don't really see a ranger as being better able to crit except in cases where he can get it nearly guaranteed. The ranger surprise attack should have automatic crits (essentially, threat range becomes 2-20 and all crits confirm automatically), and I'd say add 1/5 the class level (rounded down) to the multiplier. It'll be an extremely powerful attack (perhaps roughly twice the power of a sneak attack), but is really usable only once per fight.

edit: hell, your spending a round to kill a thing, which you should in one round

Keep in mind, you're spending a round before the fight begins. Maybe I wasn't clear; I'm not just thinking of hiding during the fight, I mean an attack when he doesn't even know you exist. So yes, it should be a close to guaranteed insta-kill against mooks (quite useful if the mook you just killed was a guard who was supposed to warn the enemy of your approach) and a serious attack against major enemies; an automatic crit with a bow should do that at lower levels, and at higher levels you can get a bonus to the multiplier.

And yes, this still makes the ranger into very much a non-DPR class...but there are other classes for those who want to play a more conventional combatant.

[bobthe6th]

oh yeah... bows...
so how about +1 to critical multiplier and +10 multiplying damage at fourth and every four levels there after, maxing at +5 crit and +50 damage?
that would be the special, full minute of study without being spotted death attack.
then in combat you can spend a full round action studying a target and get the boosted crit range? so in combat they have a shtic, but not a ridicules one.

[toapat]

oh yeah... bows...
so how about +1 to critical multiplier and +10 multiplying damage at fourth and every four levels there after, maxing at +5 crit and +50 damage?
that would be the special, full minute of study without being spotted death attack.
then in combat you can spend a full round action studying a target and get the boosted crit range? so in combat they have a shtic, but not a ridicules one.

with that kind of study time, i think +100 damage per rank would be within reason, considering that physical combatants are expected to be dealing 1 trillion damage in a round at lvl 20

[Yitzi]

oh yeah... bows...
so how about +1 to critical multiplier and +10 multiplying damage at fourth and every four levels there after, maxing at +5 crit and +50 damage?

With a bow, that's 400 damage at level 20 just from the bonus (multiplied by the crit); that's enough for the ranger to possibly one-shot a major boss. I would make it somewhat weaker and allow it to require only one round of study (so long as the ranger isn't detected, which for a ranger is quite plausible), but it's up to you for your homebrew.

then in combat you can spend a full round action studying a target and get the boosted crit range? so in combat they have a shtic, but not a ridicules one.

It should still only work against enemies flat-footed against their attack, though; the whole point is that it is meant to synergize with their skills.

[Seerow]

1) Off topic, but I don't get the complaints about changing tables. I didn't even know that there was a site that did that. Tables on this site are incredibly easy. Especially compared to the practically html layout a lot of forums use.

I honestly use gitp table formatting code even for just organizing my own thoughts in note pad, because it's easier than writing in word and making actual tables instead.

2) On topic, all three of the fixes here seem to me to miss the mark of what makes a tier3 tier3. The first one is just a rogue with full BAB more or less (still tier 4). The second one is more or less the same as standard ranger, but with a couple extra feats and sneak attack instead of favored enemy. The third has even less.

Like you seem to have the power down, but lack a lot of the flexibility. Skills alone are not enough unless you are also rewriting the skill system.

[Greyfeld85]

Personally, I think you can bring the Ranger up to T3 by giving him a full progression AC and giving him a few more spells per day.

[Seerow]

Personally, I think you can bring the Ranger up to T3 by giving him a full progression AC and giving him a few more spells per day.

I do agree with this. Giving a spell progression similar to the one I gave my Paladin, or maybe bumping up as high as Duskblade progression, along with swapping the Ranger and Druid ACs, and the Ranger's in a much better place. Maybe also make the casting Warmage style (ie spontaneous casting from full list) for some extra versatility.

[bobthe6th]

1) Off topic, but I don't get the complaints about changing tables. I didn't even know that there was a site that did that. Tables on this site are incredibly easy. Especially compared to the practically html layout a lot of forums use.

I honestly use gitp table formatting code even for just organizing my own thoughts in note pad, because it's easier than writing in word and making actual tables instead.

UMV, but I have spent at least w hours on every class just making the table. With the websight I spent 5-10 minutes.

2) On topic, all three of the fixes here seem to me to miss the mark of what makes a tier3 tier3. The first one is just a rogue with full BAB more or less (still tier 4). The second one is more or less the same as standard ranger, but with a couple extra feats and sneak attack instead of favored enemy. The third has even less.

Like you seem to have the power down, but lack a lot of the flexibility. Skills alone are not enough unless you are also rewriting the skill system.

Well... non of them are truly done... at this point the third will be a lot more then it is, with some manuver like stuff and special abilaties.
Version one needs to be actualy made at this point, as I have the concept down to a degree.
Version two... I need to add somthing,

[Seerow]

UMV, but I have spent at least w hours on every class just making the table. With the websight I spent 5-10 minutes.

Meh, I just find the table really easy to do. Put a | between each entry. Your text even looks like a table before you make the post!

But maybe Im just weird.




As for the Rangers I guess I'll wait to see the actually complete thing.

[Yitzi]

Like you seem to have the power down, but lack a lot of the flexibility. Skills alone are not enough unless you are also rewriting the skill system.

Why not? Skills have very high flexibility; pretty much anything that isn't direct combat and isn't physically impossible is probably going to be done with a skill.