Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXV

[Mike_G]

On the other hand, that only really applies if you have either one IRA like group or a few that are at all likely to end up working together. Having more than one makes it very easy to systematically remove any trace of "ideologically united".

That might not even be necessary - there's more than a few of these groups united more by a common enemy than anything else, remove the enemy and they'll balkanize.

I figure whoever stranded them on the craphole prison planet with no electricity will probably be a good enough common enemy.

[Knaight]

I figure whoever stranded them on the craphole prison planet with no electricity will probably be a good enough common enemy.

Normally I'd agree, but getting back to orbit is a long enough prospect for them to not represent an immediate common enemy that well.

[Clistenes]

Edit: Thinking about it some more, terrorists in the vein of the IRA would exactly be the sort of people capable of taking over the asylum and achieving the result that Carl suggests. Knowledgeable in adhoc manipulation of technologies and machinery, ideologically united and driven, well disciplined and organised, well versed in the use of violence and comfortable in dealing with shady people. The professional criminals down there with them would either be recruited, trade (comparatively) peacefully or give them a wide berth - the less socially functional people would be unlikely to be able to form a coherent group to oppose them effectively.

Going from pre-industrial tech to interstellar travel would be such a long term goal and so resources-consuming and work-demanding that the IRA-like would be a very hard time convincing the rest of the inmates to work with them...

I mean, slaving yourself your whole life so your great-great-great-grandchildren may be able to escape?

Any competent enough criminal leader would have an easy time raising the inmates against the IRA-like organization...

[Mike_G]

Going from pre-industrial tech to interstellar travel would be such a long term goal and so resources-consuming and work-demanding that the IRA-like would be a very hard time convincing the rest of the inmates to work with them...

I mean, slaving yourself your whole life so your great-great-great-grandchildren may be able to escape?

Our revenge will be the laughter of our children.

--Bobby Sands

Since we're mentioning the IRA.

[Brother Oni]

I mean, slaving yourself your whole life so your great-great-great-grandchildren may be able to escape?

On the other hand, work for us and we'll guarantee you food and a roof over your head so you don't starve or freeze to death when winter comes, doesn't sound like a bad deal.

Any competent enough criminal leader would have an easy time raising the inmates against the IRA-like organization...

Except that the IRA-like organisation would like have better tech, or at least the knowledge for it. It would make for an interesting scenario though - the players climb out of their capsule, the outside still smoking from the heat of re-entry, to find themselves in the middle of a war between a criminal gang and a nascent IRA-like terrorist organisation. Criminals offer freedom to do whatever you like but no long term plan or personal safety from fellow members while the terrorists offer food, shelter, comfort and a distant hope of escape in return for hard work and allegiance to their cause.

Murder hobos style PCs would obvious favour the former, but signing up for the latter could make for some interesting options.

[Mike_G]

On the other hand, work for us and we'll guarantee you food and a roof over your head so you don't starve or freeze to death when winter comes, doesn't sound like a bad deal.



Except that the IRA-like organisation would like have better tech, or at least the knowledge for it. It would make for an interesting scenario though - the players climb out of their capsule, the outside still smoking from the heat of re-entry, to find themselves in the middle of a war between a criminal gang and a nascent IRA-like terrorist organisation. Criminals offer freedom to do whatever you like but no long term plan or personal safety from fellow members while the terrorists offer food, shelter, comfort and a distant hope of escape in return for hard work and allegiance to their cause.

Murder hobos style PCs would obvious favour the former, but signing up for the latter could make for some interesting options.

Don't underestimate the sticking power of the resistance.

Norman Invasion of Ireland 1170
Battle of the Boyne 1690
Potato Famine 1845
Easter Rising 1916
Irish Free State 1922
Republic of Ireland 1937
Good Friday Agreement 1996

Reunited with the Six Counties TBD

A long time to work toward a cause

[Recherché]

I just realized that in this sort of situation experimental archeologists would probably be invaluable. I can shear a sheep using medieval tools, card and spin the wool using hand carved tools, build an early medieval loom out of a pile of lumber and a sharp knife and weave and dye fabric with it. A colleague of mine makes stone tools out of pieces of flint on the weekends and uses them to butcher animals and tan hides. Another has built a miniature old Irish hill fort as part of a project. More theoretically I know how to treat infected wounds using Roman era tech and how to make a medieval house with mud and minimal tools. We end up with some freaking weird skill sets.

[Mr Beer]

Overcoming the difficulties of having a functional industrial base depend a lot on the time frames involved. Take a look at Australia, it's not a perfect comparison by any means but it doesn't look much like a prison colony these days.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Overcoming the difficulties of having a functional industrial base depend a lot on the time frames involved. Take a look at Australia, it's not a perfect comparison by any means but it doesn't look much like a prison colony these days.

Australia wasn't cut off from the outside except carefully monitored drops, either. And didn't have to overcome plot-inium.

[Clistenes]

On the other hand, work for us and we'll guarantee you food and a roof over your head so you don't starve or freeze to death when winter comes, doesn't sound like a bad deal.



Except that the IRA-like organisation would like have better tech, or at least the knowledge for it. It would make for an interesting scenario though - the players climb out of their capsule, the outside still smoking from the heat of re-entry, to find themselves in the middle of a war between a criminal gang and a nascent IRA-like terrorist organisation. Criminals offer freedom to do whatever you like but no long term plan or personal safety from fellow members while the terrorists offer food, shelter, comfort and a distant hope of escape in return for hard work and allegiance to their cause.

Murder hobos style PCs would obvious favour the former, but signing up for the latter could make for some interesting options.

But, would that IRA-like organization really offer any of that? I think you are greatly overstimating their capacities... They may know how to make explosives using industrial chemicals and even how to make primitive guns using electric equipment and steel tubes, but, what good would that be when you are trying to figure how to rediscover agriculture, and all you have are sticks and stones? Are they going to make food and shelter appear out of thin air?

They may have a chance to start something if they manage to secure the few guys with useful skills at the very beginning, but at the same time, the people they would be working with would be criminals who used violence and broke society's rules for their own benefit... how long before Don Corleone decides to make a coup and take over, promising the other inmates to produce more food with less work by relocating the resources of the "Build a Starship 300 years in the future" project to the "Eat Meat Twice a Week Next Year" project?

[Mr Beer]

You guys are missing a really obvious point here, the society (or societies) do not need to be founded with the mission statement to build a starship. They should be founded just to get a society because that's what people do. The real possibility of starting Project Escape Planet Craphole can emerge after achieving industrialisation.

Australia wasn't cut off from the outside except carefully monitored drops, either. And didn't have to overcome plot-inium.

Hence the whole 'not perfect comparison' thing. What I'm saying is, you can start with unpromising beginnings and end up with a functional society and given enough time that's completely reasonable.

[Knaight]

You guys are missing a really obvious point here, the society (or societies) do not need to be founded with the mission statement to build a starship. They should be founded just to get a society because that's what people do. The real possibility of starting Project Escape Planet Craphole can emerge after achieving industrialisation.

We're addressing the point - operation build a starship doesn't work as a society forming motivation, and the group there can be selected to make society building harder. You'd still probably see one (as you said, that's what people do), but that particular incentive just doesn't work.

[snowblizz]

We're addressing the point - operation build a starship doesn't work as a society forming motivation, and the group there can be selected to make society building harder. You'd still probably see one (as you said, that's what people do), but that particular incentive just doesn't work.

Just strikes me how all of this is basically the plot of Gorkamorka. A 40k spinoff game featuring orks stuck on a desert planet trying to rebuild a spaceship from the wreckage of the spacehulk (think conglomeration of dozens starships and asteroids mangles together, it's not a moon it's a space hulk!).

Being orks with the mental aquity and inclination of a bunch of English football hooligans (the base template for the ork) it doesn't progress super smoothly. Though they do have the benefit* of innate technological savants popping up in the population.


Mostly it's a bunch of green burlky walking fungi haivng a good scrap about a choice piece of scrap.

*well "benefit", a Mekboy is more of mad scientist-engineer, so YMMV when he rebuild your gun

[Clistenes]

You guys are missing a really obvious point here, the society (or societies) do not need to be founded with the mission statement to build a starship. They should be founded just to get a society because that's what people do. The real possibility of starting Project Escape Planet Craphole can emerge after achieving industrialisation.

Somebody mentioned that the hate against a common enemy (the justice system that trapped them there) and the will to escape could work as the ideological glue to make the innates work together, and I answered I think that's too long term a goal for such self-serving population...

As for they forming a society because that's what people do... yes, they would form a society, but they could easily get stuck at Yanomami's technological and organizational level for centuries... once the first generation of inmates dies you are left with kids that have spent their whole lives without experiencing any tech more complex than a bone-tipped spear, a shelf bow or a vine net, or, if they are really lucky, a primitive loom or ceramic oven...

Yes, they have heard tales about planes and computeres, yes, they may have some theoretical knowkedge of basic sciences, but their main concerns are to hunt the next meal and to steal some wives from the nearest tribe...

[Knaight]

As for they forming a society because that's what people do... yes, they would form a society, but they could easily get stuck at Yanomami's technological and organizational level for centuries... once the first generation of inmates dies you are left with kids that have spent their whole lives without experiencing any tech more complex than a bone-tipped spear, a shelf bow or a vine net, or, if they are really lucky, a primitive loom or ceramic oven...

Yes, they have heard tales about planes and computeres, yes, they may have some theoretical knowkedge of basic sciences, but their firemost concerns are to hunt the next meal and to steal some wives from the nearest tribe...

A primitive loom is basically nothing - hand looms are stone age tech, and can be made pretty effortlessly out of a handful of sticks (though that does assume particular earth-life is there with them, namely trees or vines).

There's also the matter of conceptual technologies. At the very least they'll inherit a language structure from a much more complex society, and that matters. Writing is probably going to be there, concepts like the very existence of a standard system of measurements (not to mention the concepts embedded in that about what can be measured) are going to be very helpful, etc.

[Max_Killjoy]

If there are deposits of this stuff that mucks with electronics, maybe the prisoners start digging it up, putting it on dumb rockets, and firing it into orbit... there's some revenge.


(The V2 reached space before coming back down, and was designed using slide rules, pen, and paper.)

[Brother Oni]

As for they forming a society because that's what people do... yes, they would form a society, but they could easily get stuck at Yanomami's technological and organizational level for centuries... once the first generation of inmates dies you are left with kids that have spent their whole lives without experiencing any tech more complex than a bone-tipped spear, a shelf bow or a vine net, or, if they are really lucky, a primitive loom or ceramic oven...

Until the next batch of inmates get dropped in, who still have the knowledge or more up to date knowledge.

Thinking about the issue from another perspective, assuming that the drops are completely random and there aren't any designated landing spots:

Using incarceration numbers from America (no bias here, just that they're the easiest to find), around 0.91% of the adult population is imprisoned at any one time. Approximately 10% of those are in federal prisons, so use that as a minimum sentencing yardstick to get sent to Prison Planet.

Assuming the Evil Empire is in control of a single planet with a similar population to Earth (7.4 billion), the population of Prison Planet would be ~6.7 million, spread over a whole planet. That's not a very high population density, even if you add multiple planets, so the likelihood of groups interacting is incredible minute.

Planetside population growth would skew the numbers, but we'd need more information on how long the prison had been operating for. Lack of healthcare and pre-modern healthcare would also increase the mortality rate, but we'd need to decide on a tech level before I can start looking up numbers for that.

Of course, if the drops aren't random, then as I mentioned earlier, expect communities to start developing around the drop sites, either to recruit, scavenge or otherwise take advantage of the fresh meat.

[Clistenes]

Until the next batch of inmates get dropped in, who still have the knowledge or more up to date knowledge.

While new batches of inmates would bring a small minority of people with technical skills, they would also bring a steady supply of antisocial, criminal outsiders who would try to prey on any society previous generations had managed to develope...

It's not impossible, but a functional, modern society would take a very long time to develope, and by the time they were able to build starships they would probably not care too much about the way the original settlers arrived to the planet...

[Max_Killjoy]

Given the empire sending them there, I don't know if I'd refer to it as a "justice" system, and I don't know if I'd presume the people being sent are strongly selected for any sort of actual anti-social or violent tendency.

[Brother Oni]

While new batches of inmates would bring a small minority of people with technical skills, they would also bring a steady supply of antisocial, criminal outsiders who would try to prey on any society previous generations had managed to develope...

Australia manage to federate and secede in 113 years after we started using it as a prison, so a constant influx of antisocial criminal outsiders doesn't seem to be too much of a hinderance.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Using incarceration numbers from America [...]

Planetside population growth would skew the numbers [...]

Putting these two together: incarceration rates for women are significantly lower than for men. If we use the US prison population as reference, the initial population and subsequent drops will have men outnumbering women 10:1 or worse. I'm not exactly a population growth modeller, but I imagine that an imbalance like that takes several generations to correct, and might cause serious tension. I can imagine the female population taking aggressive measures to protect themselves in such an environment. Depending on scale, there might be common genetic defects, due to the relatively wide distribution of a small pool of mother's genes.

[Brother Oni]

Putting these two together: incarceration rates for women are significantly lower than for men. If we use the US prison population as reference, the initial population and subsequent drops will have men outnumbering women 10:1 or worse. I'm not exactly a population growth modeller, but I imagine that an imbalance like that takes several generations to correct, and might cause serious tension. I can imagine the female population taking aggressive measures to protect themselves in such an environment. Depending on scale, there might be common genetic defects, due to the relatively wide distribution of a small pool of mother's genes.

Women becoming little more than breeding stock is an issue, but unfortunately it has historical precedence. How (or if) Nargrakhan wants to model this in his game is entirely up to him.

[Galloglaich]

Australia manage to federate and secede in 113 years after we started using it as a prison, so a constant influx of antisocial criminal outsiders doesn't seem to be too much of a hinderance.

The questionable nature of some of the people / colonists is counterbalanced by the absence of Absolute Monarchs, Oligarchs, 'Donor Class' etc., which resulted in a net positive there and in other places.

The difference between Australia and say, Guatemala is that the latter colony had a multi-tiered class system which was very aggressively enforced. I think Botany Bay was far enough away and unappealing enough from a commercial point of view that it was more or less left alone for a while.

It's actually kind of similar in Costa Rica where you never did have the Great Landowner class or the indigenous underclass of most of the rest of Central America. And no gold or anything to attract the former. In the long run results in a more prosperous, more peaceful place with a middle class.

G

[Galloglaich]

Putting these two together: incarceration rates for women are significantly lower than for men. If we use the US prison population as reference, the initial population and subsequent drops will have men outnumbering women 10:1 or worse. I'm not exactly a population growth modeller, but I imagine that an imbalance like that takes several generations to correct, and might cause serious tension. I can imagine the female population taking aggressive measures to protect themselves in such an environment. Depending on scale, there might be common genetic defects, due to the relatively wide distribution of a small pool of mother's genes.

It may not take so long - I think a substantial proportion of men were wiped out in Europe during WWI and WWII and the population bounced back pretty quickly to normal male / female ratios. One or two generations. Usually there is a "baby boom" for a while right after a lot of the men are killed off.

I read a while back that the Mongols killed 90% of the men in Iran when they invaded, but the population (somewhat amazingly) recovered from that as well and the Persians re-asserted their culture.

G

[rrgg]

So I've been reading up a bit more on the Battle of Fornovo and I'm getting more and more curious about this "anonymous" period illustration on wikipedia. The layout of the battle and the troops involved seem fairly accurate including the stradiots sneaking around the flank to attack the french baggage train and the French guard Archers positioned on the far side of the Swiss pike square near the river. There are also other details I'm noticing for instance some sources claim that the lances of the Italian Men at arms were long, hollow, and painted more like tournament lances unlike the lances used by the French men at arms. And in this illustration you can see the italian and french lances depicted very differently.

If this illustration is from a reliable source it also seems to suggest some interesting new things about the battle. For instance Fornovo is the battle where Paolo Giovio claims a bunch of Swiss two-handed swordsmen charged forward into the italian pikemen and defeated them by cutting the heads off their pikes, but this illustration doesn't show any italian pikemen at all, and instead has all the italian infantry armed with shields and early partisans. This might be even further evidence that Giovio, who was 12 when the battle happened, was full of ****.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A...of_Fornovo.jpg

On a somewhat related note, I think I have a new theory about the whole "holding the pike about the middle" thing which seems to show up in a lot of early illustrations of swiss pikemen. Even La Noue breifly mentions that he thinks pikemen should hold their pikes in the middle for defense against cavalry, prompting a response from humphrey barwick of "Well that doesn't make any sense, everyone knows you're supposed to brace the rear of your pike against your back foot and put your front hand forward 1/3rd the pikes length at the most when fighting against cavalry."

What I think is maybe holding the pike in the middle made it easier to stay mobile while going on the offensive against cavalry like the swiss often did. Perhaps holding the pike in the middle made it easier to quickly brace the rear of the pike against the dirt behind you in case the enemy cavalry suddenly decided to counter-charge.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It may not take so long - I think a substantial proportion of men were wiped out in Europe during WWI and WWII and the population bounced back pretty quickly to normal male / female ratios. One or two generations. Usually there is a "baby boom" for a while right after a lot of the men are killed off.

I read a while back that the Mongols killed 90% of the men in Iran when they invaded, but the population (somewhat amazingly) recovered from that as well and the Persians re-asserted their culture.

G

Those cases involve a surplus of women/lack of men, not a surplus of men/lack of women. I'm not sure that those cases are comparable to a prison world with ten men for every woman. I'm also not sure it isn't, but it's worth noting the difference.

Secondly, WWI deaths resulted in men:women ratios much closer to 1. Wikipedia mentions casualty rates of 1.69-1.89% of the population for all nations involved in the war, with some outliers, such as a very high 16.67-27.78% in Serbia and 13.26-15.36% in the Ottoman Empire (including the Armenian Genocide). Those casualties include a large number of civilians--around half of all WWI deaths, by this table, which includes malnutrition deaths and disease, but not the influenza epidemic. The civilian casualties would be about 50% women, I imagine, so the resulting m:f ratio would be closer to .98-.99:1 across all nations, or .9-.95:1 in Serbia. Of course, the ratio is smaller in the age bracket for military service, but still not below .8:1.

Thirdly, for all cases on Earth, it's possible to (slightly) balance the ratio through migration, which doesn't work for an isolated prison world. In fact, the only migration is the dropping of new prisoners, which further skews the population, instead of evening it out.

That's not to say that the population won't recover, but I think it'll take more than one or two generations.

[Mr Beer]

This all favours the idea of using the prison planet for political prisoners, dissidents and the like.

If the population resembles 'worst of the worst' prisoners from a typical western nation, then they are generally going to be extremely violent and/or physically dangerous people. That heavily selects against women.

It also naturally leads to a pretty terrible society, at least initially, and very terrible indeed for female prisoners.

Conversely, you go the political route, then you have the following:

1. An actual Evil Empire to fight against.

2. Intellectuals who more reasonably possess technical knowledge.

3. Plenty of female bloggers, professors, activists and mothers/wives/daughters of dissidents to be imprisoned.

4. More chance of a functional society emerging and more chance it happens quickly.

5. Much easier to justify not having a rapey hellhole for a setting.

Not to say it would be all sweetness and light but I think it would be pretty horrendous to sweep out a maximum security jail and chuck in a few female prisoners.

[Brother Oni]

4. More chance of a functional society emerging and more chance it happens quickly.

I think this point should be emphasised in that there will be multiple societies that will form - a drop of political dissidents would have very different group dynamics to a group of sex offenders.

I think it's also important to point out that not all violent criminals are the same - generally speaking, an armed robber, a serial killer and a cartel enforcer would all behave differently. Some of them could even integrate into the calmer groups.

Not to say it would be all sweetness and light but I think it would be pretty horrendous to sweep out a maximum security jail and chuck in a few female prisoners.

Yeah, there's a whole porn sub-genre that demonstrates what would happen in ample graphic detail.

[Clistenes]

If the Evil Empire is doing this as a mix of repression tool and reality show, they will make sure plenty of psychos, rapists and gangsters are dropped...

[Mr Beer]

I think it's also important to point out that not all violent criminals are the same - generally speaking, an armed robber, a serial killer and a cartel enforcer would all behave differently. Some of them could even integrate into the calmer groups.

Oh yeah agree...not like everyone with a really long prison sentence is some kind of slavering cartoon monster.

If the Evil Empire is doing this as a mix of repression tool and reality show, they will make sure plenty of psychos, rapists and gangsters are dropped...

Why not have both? The GULAG had scum of the earth in the system as well as people who said the wrong thing or just were in the wrong place when Stalin was writing his hit lists.