OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread

[danielxcutter]

It's a +5 greatsword. +5 to hit, base 2d6+5 damage (plus Roy's Strength bonus). Beyond that only Rich knows, if he's actually planned it out rather than winging it; it appears it can cast a combined Heal and Restoration on Roy.

Sabine did imply that it being starmetal made it dangerous to her (and guessed starmetal rather than cold iron, so it's probably not as simple as it functioning just like cold iron).

I think it ignores all adamantine, cold iron, and silver DR, and is always treated as a magic weapon for DR purposes too. That's just the starmetal. Also, I think Roy said that he felt faster when it activated or something - maybe a bonus to attack rolls and dodge AC?

[Centaur]

Somehow I get the feeling Eugene is going to end up on the cloud forever.

Spoiler

Show

Eugene's Blood Oath is: "I swear on the blood that flows from my wounds that I shall not rest in this life or any other, until I or my heirs have enacted horrible vengeance on those that have slighted me, named here as Xykon the Sorcerer."

Notice how the letter of the Oath specifically does not prevent said heirs from resting, in this life or any other. Which might be part of the reason Roy was admitted to Celestia.

[Zindaras]

I'm kind of waiting for the tensions aboard the Méchane to come to a boiling point. There have been some hints at a potential rift between the engineer and Bandana, so I'm curious when that's going to come into play. I doubt the Order will have access to the Méchane in perpetuity, and dramatically speaking, you'd expect the troubles to start at the worst opportune moment. I just kind of got the impression while reading this comic that with the lull in the action, this might be the moment to spring that particular surprise.

[factotum]

Notice how the letter of the Oath specifically does not prevent said heirs from resting, in this life or any other. Which might be part of the reason Roy was admitted to Celestia.

It's already been brought up, and the obvious counterpoint has been too: namely, if the Blood Oath was never in danger of keeping Roy out of Celestia, why didn't the deva just say so when he brought it up at the interview? Also, Eugene was pretty convinced that the magic of the Blood Oath was supposed to keep Roy out as well.

[Kish]

It's already been brought up, and the obvious counterpoint has been too: namely, if the Blood Oath was never in danger of keeping Roy out of Celestia, why didn't the deva just say so when he brought it up at the interview?

More than that, she explicitly says that Roy is getting in because he died pursuing the Blood Oath. It's not just a lie of omission, it's a lie of commission, if what dtilque has been insisting on and making no effort to support is true.

[danielxcutter]

I'm kind of waiting for the tensions aboard the Méchane to come to a boiling point. There have been some hints at a potential rift between the engineer and Bandana, so I'm curious when that's going to come into play. I doubt the Order will have access to the Méchane in perpetuity, and dramatically speaking, you'd expect the troubles to start at the worst opportune moment. I just kind of got the impression while reading this comic that with the lull in the action, this might be the moment to spring that particular surprise.

Hmmm, maybe Durkula will vamp Andromeda(the engineer), and her vampire spirit will dominate the crew and take the Méchane, while leaving Bandanna and the OotS behind? After all, vampire spirits absorb the host's worst memories and emotions, and Andy's worst are likely related with not being the captain of the Méchane.

[Centaur]

It's already been brought up, and the obvious counterpoint has been too: namely, if the Blood Oath was never in danger of keeping Roy out of Celestia, why didn't the deva just say so when he brought it up at the interview? Also, Eugene was pretty convinced that the magic of the Blood Oath was supposed to keep Roy out as well.

I said “part of”. Likely, getting out of a Blood Oath by lawyering its letter is what LE or LN people do.

[sammycat]

So understand how Roy feels. Only swap in "mother" instead of father.

Your mother is dead and speaks to you from beyond the grave?

[Xihirli]

Hmmm, maybe Durkula will vamp Andromeda(the engineer), and her vampire spirit will dominate the crew and take the Méchane, while leaving Bandanna and the OotS behind? After all, vampire spirits absorb the host's worst memories and emotions, and Andy's worst are likely related with not being the captain of the Méchane.

Since the staff that lets the vampirization process end nearly immediately is destroyed, I doubt this.

[Peelee]

Your mother is dead and speaks to you from beyond the grave?

It's more common than you think.

[Zindaras]

Hmmm, maybe Durkula will vamp Andromeda(the engineer), and her vampire spirit will dominate the crew and take the Méchane, while leaving Bandanna and the OotS behind? After all, vampire spirits absorb the host's worst memories and emotions, and Andy's worst are likely related with not being the captain of the Méchane.

Why would she even have to be a vampire to betray them? People are selfish, you know. If it doesn't happen now, it will happen after the world has been saved from Durkula and the direct threat to the world is over.

[Hopeless]

Did they just reveal Serini included an Epic level defence against divination that outmatches anything her entire party ever created?

That protection from scrying that couldn't stop anyone from heaven scrying them but Serini apparently managed it!

Any guesses how?

And does that include Xykon's astral fortress?

I don't believe he told Roy about that now did he?

[hamishspence]

I think Eugene's blaming Hel, not Serini, for the lockup.

[Kish]

The Order isn't at Kraagor's Gate; what would Serini have to do with the current events in dwarven lands?

[LadyEowyn]

I'm seeing a few possibility for plot-relevant foreshadowing in the last few strips.

1) It seems strange that all the other oathspirits are gone. Yes, it's possible that Eugene just chose a much more difficult oath than everyone else, but the fact that it's a recent development makes me think there might be something more to it.

2) Eugene attributes the devas' refusal to talk to him to his abducting and replacing one of the devas in order to conspire with Shojo in NCFTPB. However, in DSTP they were still talking to him, and trusted him at least enough to assign him to deliver information about V to Roy. So the silent treatment seems like a new development since that incident, and might be a result of it - and an indication that his action was a step too far and that he's not getting into Celestia even if Xykon is killed. That would also explain why Eugene being assigned to tell Roy about V and refusing was even a part of the plot; V ultimately decided to tell Roy about it him/herself, so that Eugene's actions were only important insofar as they reflected on Eugene's character.

3) The last few strips definitely show that Eugene has gotten worse. In NCFTPB, his actions were arguably Chaotic, but didn't stand out as non-Good. It was only after Roy got into heaven and Eugene didn't that Eugene's morality took a more downward turn - approving of and concealing Familicide, regarding his family only in terms of how it benefitted him, and advocating allowing the world to end just so that he could get into heaven. (Eugene never, at any point, says or implies "You should let the world be destroyed because it's safer than letting the Snarl devour everything". He says that Roy should let the world be destroyed because that would let Eugene get into heaven, regardless of its effect on everyone else.)

I have trouble seeing why we'd get so many indications of Eugene's degenerating attitudes and behaviours if it wasn't going to have an effect on how his story ends. And his complete isolation showing that the devas are well and truly angry with him - more so than they were before DSTP, when he was still on speaking terms with them - indicates that he's crossed some sort of line. Destroying the evidence of Familicide is the most likely cause.

We've also had two strips indicating that V (who is True Neutral) feels very differently about V's behaviour than Eugene does - Eugene thinks that discarding family for academic study is acceptable, while V deeply regrets it; Eugene thinks the soul splice and all it entailed was worthwhile, while V recognizes it was an atrocity. The comic's making its clear that Eugene's attitudes are less moral than those of a True Neutral character, and the most obvious reason for Rich to make a point of that is to indicate some alignment change on Eugene's part.

I don't think we got three strips of this conversation solely to indicate that Eugene is a jackass (which we already knew) and that he can't scry on Hel-related events.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Well, dang.

I had always assumed that Master Fyron routinely visited Eugene in the afterlife, given their father-son relationship with one another.

I mean, the guy tries to avenge you and is kept out of the afterlife by his vow to do so, you can presumably spend the time to visit him. Assuming Fyron is Lawful Good, that is.

[nleseul]

1) It seems strange that all the other oathspirits are gone. Yes, it's possible that Eugene just chose a much more difficult oath than everyone else, but the fact that it's a recent development makes me think there might be something more to it.

I wonder if the gods might be fast-tracking oath fulfillment because they expect the world to end soon, and unfulfilled oaths might make that process more messy for some reason.

2) Eugene attributes the devas' refusal to talk to him to his abducting and replacing one of the devas in order to conspire with Shojo in NCFTPB. However, in DSTP they were still talking to him, and trusted him at least enough to assign him to deliver information about V to Roy.

They might be willing to deal with him on a "professional" level, but unwilling to stay around him for casual conversation.

I don't think we got three strips of this conversation solely to indicate that Eugene is a jackass (which we already knew) and that he can't scry on Hel-related events.

I think the point is simply that Roy is having to really understand his own emotions in order to master the sword's new powers, and his relationship with Eugene is a huge part of his emotional makeup.

[zimmerwald1915]

1) It seems strange that all the other oathspirits are gone. Yes, it's possible that Eugene just chose a much more difficult oath than everyone else, but the fact that it's a recent development makes me think there might be something more to it.

Were there ever that many oathspirits to begin with? The only two we ever met were Eugene and Violet.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Eugene mentioned 'other oathspirits' back in DCF, so there had to be at least two to justify the plural.

Part of the issue stems from the fact that the Blood Oath of Vengeance seems to have been discontinued, so you aren't getting any new oathspirits.

[dtilque]

More than that, she explicitly says that Roy is getting in because he died pursuing the Blood Oath. It's not just a lie of omission, it's a lie of commission, if what dtilque has been insisting on and making no effort to support is true.

It's indisputable that the oath Eugene swore did not bind his descendants to not rest in the afterlife. Just read the text of it. Since that seemingly contradicts what the deva said, the problem probably lies in the memory of the author. He didn't realize he was writing a contradiction at the time he wrote whichever was written second.

[Kish]

Or possibly the effects of the Blood Oath were never supposed to be exhaustively stated in what Eugene said as he was taking it? Maybe that's why Eugene said he didn't know it would keep him out of the afterlife or be passed on to his descendents? Just a thought.

[Michaeler]

For the non english speaking people (like myself) "Pawn this visits off on Julia"="Go to visit Julia (instead of me)"?

To be precise, it means "Get him to visit Julia instead of me." - it's what Roy is planning to do.

[Shining Wrath]

Eugene is willing to interrupt Roy learning his sword just because he's bored? OK, I guess being completely alone on a cloud for days on end would get pretty lonely. I hereby extend a tiny bit of sympathy in his direction.

Interesting that a goddess, presumably Hel, has locked down divination. It might also affect Redcloak if he tried to scry to see if anyone was coming to interrupt Team Evil.

[danielxcutter]

It's more common than you think.

I hope that was a metaphor.

[dtilque]

I just reread the relevant strip to remind myself why I concluded that the oath didn't actually keep Roy out Celestia. (I should have done this before, and it would have saved a lot of bother.) The sum total of the deva's statements on the oath are one line in the third to last panel "It's not a problem for us." She doesn't say why it's not a problem, just that it isn't one. So I'm not seeing any direct lie or contradiction here. I figured the reason it's not a problem was that the oath didn't actually bind Roy's soul. Yes, she didn't explain that, but there's only so much space in a strip.

One bit of supporting evidence is that Violet, whose oath was redeemed by a distant descendant, didn't seem to be accompanied by any of the intervening descendants. She says the rest of her family is already on the mountain.

[Kish]

Dude, I already quoted and linked what you're insisting isn't there. I have no idea why you're so determined to maintain it doesn't exist.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[The MunchKING]

I wonder if the gods might be fast-tracking oath fulfillment because they expect the world to end soon, and unfulfilled oaths might make that process more messy for some reason.

Since the ones Eugene would actually know about were Lawful Good, it maybe that the Gods were like "If they aren't in by the time we blow up the world, they won't ever GET in. So If they otherwise meet standards, push 'em through". Because they are Good, and want the guys to have their shot at Paradise despite the world blowing up.

[dtilque]

Dude, I already quoted and linked what you're insisting isn't there. I have no idea why you're so determined to maintain it doesn't exist.

Even with that, I still don't think there's a contradiction or lie. There's some cross-communication there. Eugene is concerned about the details of the oath and the deva is concerned about whether he's Good and Lawful enough. Yes, she doesn't point out the details are different than he thinks, but that's because that would detract from the point of the strip. Deal with it.

[Wowlock]

You know, I kinda want Roy not to kill Xykon just so Eugene would stuck in-between for eternity O.o You know he would be a pain in the ass for everyone in heaven.