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2014-10-12, 12:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
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- Denmark
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
I fully agree that personality quirks are great for lawful good characters and anyone else. But those quirks can still pull them down from being lawful good. Let's say that a paladin has a cruel streak that he tries to rein in. That's fine for a story, but if he gives in too much, he risks not being lawful good anymore.
As for the stuff about posthumous actions, it is an interesting point that I've considered myself. Who knows? I remember an old Exalted campaign, set in a universe where posthumous actions explicitly do not matter. The players had an ally, a wise old monk, who had lived a pure life: No sex, no meat, no alcohol, plenty of excercise and hard work. Then he died, and haunted his monastery, with the ghost doing all the stuff it could never do in life. And the ghost was fully aware that its actions did not affect its status in the next life. The players exorcised the ghost by engaging it in a debate about what we are speaking about now: "If you haunt like that, you were the kind of man in life, who, as soon as the restaints were off, would act like a buffoon. Your true intent, which shows now, invalidates much of your good actions in life."
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2014-10-12, 03:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
But we don't know what alignment he was at death.
The fact that he's on the cloud only proves (per the Giant's post, linked previously) that he had 'LG' written on his character sheet. The character sheet that, itself, may well have stopped being updated when the character retired from adventuring.
We don't know what happened at his interview, or whether he even had one. Maybe a deva simply appeared and said "well, normally we'd review your record for admission at this time, but because of this Blood Oath that you willingly contracted and then dumped on your son, there's not much point, you'll just have to wait here until it's fulfilled"."None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain
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2014-10-12, 03:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2012
Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
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2014-10-12, 04:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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- Lustria
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Last edited by Killer Angel; 2014-10-12 at 04:05 PM.
Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)
Things that increase my self esteem:
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2014-10-12, 04:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2012
Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
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2014-10-12, 04:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
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2014-10-12, 11:15 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2013
Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Quirks don't pull a character down from LG, actions do, Eugene may fall from LG for assaulting a pure good and law being, or for burning very important documents sent by the higher ups. But he wouldn't fall for being selfish and uncaring or approving of V's actions, these things would explain why he did the unlawful or evil things he did, but I don't think he would be judged based on his selfishness or his ability to judge what is wrong.
Last son of the Lu-Ching dynasty
thog is the champion, thog's friends! and thog keeps on fighting to the end!
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2014-10-12, 11:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2012
Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
What a character approves of may not shift their alignment, but it can certainly be a good indicator for it. Back when Malack's alignment was still up in the air, one of the main reasons I felt he was evil was that he was friends with Tarquin - a neutral character might have conceivably gone along with Tarquin's plans for the greater good, but he wouldn't have actually liked the guy. And so while approving of Darth V won't make Eugene evil or anything like that, it does suggest that he may no longer be exactly Lawful Good enough for Celestia.
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2014-10-12, 11:50 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2013
Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
I guess it could be, but we know that roy and the others travel with belkar, and Durkon has even risked his life for him, does that make him less lawful and good? of course not. Besides, i don't really remember any part that said that malack liked tarquin, they were party compacions just like Belkar and Durkon.
As for Eugene approving Darth V (which probably he doesn't since nothing indicates he knows nothing about, how V obtained that power") makes total sense, since he has always said that destrying Xykon is a task for a wizard. I believe his motivation goes on the line of: "well, she had a great idea there, a shame it didn't succeed, but, Why bother the only person who can do something with these little problems? better get rid of it"Last son of the Lu-Ching dynasty
thog is the champion, thog's friends! and thog keeps on fighting to the end!
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2014-10-13, 12:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
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- Denmark
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
But Eugene did know a bit about V's actions. He was told by the Deva that the papers Eugene received that "It details the elf wizards alarming dealings with the forces of evil."
We don't know how Much Eugene knows, but we do know that he approved dealings with the forces of evil.
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2014-10-13, 02:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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- Manchester, UK
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
No, he just didn't *disapprove* of those dealings sufficiently to want to hobble the only person in the Order who he felt was actually doing anything to stop Xykon. By your same logic, we can argue that Roy is evil because he clearly approves of using the evil Belkar to help stop Xykon.
Also, as stated already, Eugene didn't know the *details* of V's evil dealings. He didn't know that he'd dealt with three major-league evil beings, and that the price of that deal would potentially affect the team's ability to stop Xykon--he'd have passed it on in a heartbeat if he'd known that.
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2014-10-13, 02:57 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2012
Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Roy did have to defend his association with Belkar to the deva, though. By no means am I arguing that Eugene is evil - and while I can't speak with certainty, I don't think anyone else is either - just that, as I put it earlier, he may no longer be Lawful Good enough for Celestia.
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2014-10-13, 03:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
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- Denmark
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
If someone speaks about "the forces of evil" to the degree that it calls for celestial intervention in the form of a warning, it is pretty big. Bigger than just having a murderer in your party. What's more, Eugene had every chance to learn the details, since he got the papers on the case. He either read them and didn't care, or didn't even care enough to read them.
I do agree that Eugene would have passed on the papers, if he knew that the matter could affect the Order's chances to beat Xykon, but mostly because it affects himself. The three major-league evil beings, he has shown no sign of caring about.
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2014-10-13, 08:39 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2008
Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
But there is no 'enough'. There isn't a Lawful-Good-Ish afterlife. The only way he could be stopped is if he is completely bereft of lawfulness or of goodness. While his methods may be arguable, he is still actively trying to get Xykon destroyed - a good intention. Other than being a jerk the only two new actions are highjacking a summons and burning the evidence. If those are against anything they'd be against his lawfulness.
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2014-10-13, 08:47 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Actually there are two in core D&D - one for the Law-leaning and one for the Good-leaning (Arcadia and Byopia respectively). Or even the TN afterlife (Outlands), for those who are N but lean slightly toward other alignments like Law and Good.
The reference to "heaven or hell, valhalla or the abyss, limbo or nirvana, or a dozen in between"
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html
strongly suggests something similar applies to OoTS.Last edited by hamishspence; 2014-10-13 at 08:47 AM.
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2014-10-13, 09:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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- Skyron, Andromeda
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2014-10-13, 03:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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- Dallas, TX
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
The reason he still gets into the LG paradise is the same reason Roy wasn't kicked over to the Neutral Good one - he's trying.
Eugene is very, very trying.
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2014-10-13, 04:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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- Skyron, Andromeda
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2014-10-13, 04:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Last son of the Lu-Ching dynasty
thog is the champion, thog's friends! and thog keeps on fighting to the end!
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2014-10-14, 02:46 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2013
Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Lawful Good does not mean adhering to the Paladin' Code.
Good people do evil things all the time, their alignment doesn't automatically flip to evil.
Evil people do good things all the time, their alignment doesn't automatically flip to good.
If Eugene qualified when he went up, he still qualifies now. Even rigging the trial wasn't an Evil act, and you can even argue that it _was_ a Lawful one since it allowed Roy to continue following the Blood Oath.Skipper of the Good Ship O-ChOona (accepting crew applications)
Launched June 3, 2016. Oona+O-Chul OTP Forever!!!!
"Like a tenacious child we were born, born to be wild ...
we're gonna climb so high we're never gonna die" - Steppenwolf
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2014-10-14, 03:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
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2014-10-14, 06:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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- Lustria
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)
Things that increase my self esteem:
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2014-10-14, 06:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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- Manchester, UK
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
I don't think that's what she meant. She meant that in a marginal case like Roy's the whole "trying" thing is important--it would be less so in the case of someone who, say, was really trying hard to be Lawful Good, but couldn't resist burning down every orphanage they walked past.
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2014-10-14, 07:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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- Lustria
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)
Things that increase my self esteem:
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2014-10-14, 07:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2014-10-14, 09:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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- Dallas, TX
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2014-10-14, 11:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
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- South East USA
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
I'll agree that it certainly wasn't Evil to intervene in a trial; to attack and restrain a being of pure law and good to do so, however, screams of Chaos (and even the Deva made herself clear on this matter). And it allowed Roy to follow a Blood Oath that was made in a Chaotic Mindset by a man who lost interest and the will to follow it in his own life time, and only continues to follow it now because his eternal resting place can't be decided until it gets cleared up.
Quite frankly, while I wouldn't say that he's going to Hell or anything, Roy is a man trying to be Lawful (though veering Chaotic here or there in following it), while Eugene seems to only follow what rules are convenient to him or his goals. I'd be willing to swallow that he's a good man, but we've personally seen far more examples of him being Chaotic than we have of seeing him being Lawful, and if Roy was in danger of being thrown to the Neutral Good afterlife, my bet is such that Eugene's more likely than not going to be sent there.
He qualified to be tested for his chance at getting into the Lawful Good afterlife. He could have failed that test even before the Blood Oath, and since trying to lead Roy, Eugene certainly doesn't seem to be very Axiomatic. Hell, Eugene was willing to cover up genocide, even when asked by a being of Law and Good, if it meant Roy continuing his adventuring. That's sure as hell not Lawful.You can call me anything. I've been called Inkin, Nono, INo, Names, and NoKnow so far.
As of 7/20, I've gotten help in trying to get past a physical addiction that's been eating at my time, and finished recovering from a spot of trouble that ended up eeking into Self-Harm. I'm doing better now; here's hoping it lasts a bit longer...
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2014-10-14, 12:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2011
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- Dromund Kaas
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Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
Part of the question is whether those actions count in the first place. As far as we know so far one's judgment in an afterlife is based solely on one's actions in life, in which case the most anyone in Celestia can do is give him a slap on the wrist*. There's also the fact that Eugene is technically an Outsider now, and there's been no indication so far that Outsiders in the OotS-verse are even capable of changing alignment (they are by the game rules, though it's a one-in-a-trillion event at most).
* On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if they had an entire legion of Legal Devas specialized in getting exactly this kind of case kicked over to Arcadia.
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2014-10-14, 04:35 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2008
Re: Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?
To be pedantic, Eugene isn't alive anymore; he's an oathspirit. He can't live up to anything.
Remember Violet? She didn't seem to think the adultery was going to be a problem getting in. Eugene states there's nothing to do except 'watch the living or hook up'. Generally speaking with little else possible there might not be a system for re-judging an oathspirit as there's little they could do to influence anything of importance.
I've had a suspicion the judgement itself is for show anyway and souls are pre-sorted. Similar to the guilt-for-sex, it's something the Lawful Good expect so they go through it. Just as Lawful Evil expect a bureaucratic inbox and everything that goes along with it.
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2014-10-14, 04:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007