[FWM] OOC 4: Enchanted Manticore

[Grif]

I had figured that the whole bit with Sandy hadn't taken place until the late afternoon, seeing how he was going to be sleeping in for a long time. Reasonable assumptions on both sides, daylight and not daylight.

To make things easier, I'm all for hand-waving it to dusk for you guys. Seeing how most folks just collapsed into bed last night, it's not unreasonable to say that it took them a bit longer than fifteen minutes to make themselves presentable. Washing out the dust and grime and smell of vampony ichor ain't easy.

What he said. I'm going to poke Tychris to see if he's still interested in running Phex or not.

@Purity
Since Luka has turned over the army to me, give me a few days to sort out details and then we can resume Blueshield's suicide chargeheroism.


EDIT: Sorry if I've been holding up anyone in this RP. Been scrambling to cover things in RL.

[Orzel]

Injured finger.
Typing limited

[Grif]

So, been hashing out the Dark Army stuff, but here's what I got so far.

Luka’s dark army (aka Army of Shimmerite)

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Proposed revised outline:
- Currently led by one Doth
- Estimated army strength: Five hundred soldier, perhaps upwards of thousands of unarmed followers
- Has taken over the village of Rusty Falls
- Has control of newly discovered magical ore called shimmerite.
- Known properties of metal infused with this new ore: Tougher than steel and provides substantial protection against elemental attacks and magic. Very difficult to mine as it requires focussed unicorn magic in order to split the ore in manageable chunks to be processed.
- Production of such metal is slow, owing to untried methods of production
- However, at least a hundred suits of armour have been manufactured successfully. At this point of time, they’re reserved to Doth’s trusted lieutenants and elite troops. Substantial amount of shimmerite weapons have also been manufactured.
- Current objectives of army: to seize control of the local region in order to search for more shimmerite.
- Current geopolitical situation: Bridle Shores technically is the largest remaining bastion of the NLR power within a hundred miles of the Rusty Falls village. With Moose raiding all over the Equestrian borders, the Republic does not have any forces to spare to deal with this rebellion at the moment. Taking Bridle Shores would cripple any ability for NLR to stage a counterstrike for weeks, allowing Doth critical time to equip more of his soldiers with super armour.
- Known characters:
“Ruby Stones”, member of the terror expedition to Bridle Shores
Unnamed unicorn with tentacles

Village of Rusty Falls

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Located within a small valley, between the Frostback Mountains and Mount Trotia, a group of miners originally dug out a couple of mines here, in search of precious metals. The miners struck iron, along with a small quantity of copper. A village soon sprung up around the mines as business boomed. Named after the rust coloured spring nearby, Rusty Falls holds the honour of being one of the few mines that still operates even after centuries of use. The village managed to escape the ravages of first the tyranny of Iron Hoof, then the civil war through clever diplomacy and a solemn pledge to stay neutral to either side. The arrangement suited either side just fine, since iron was in much demand. When the Republic came to power, they simply continued to supply it as they did under Iron Hoof. It would seem Rusty Falls had caught a lucky break...

One fine day, the miners struck a vein of silvery ore. At first, this prompted a huge celebration, as the newly discovered silver vein would bring about a substantial windfall to the village. Their joy soon turned into bemusement, as they struggled to actually mine the ore out. Their finest steel axe would merely chip the ore and in some circumstances, broke off entirely. This peculiar conundrum soon came to the attention of one Doth and his minions. His lieutenants, disguised as kindly inventors, infiltrated the village and offered their help. The miners accepted readily. They soon devised a crude, but effective method of mining this ore, which they named Shimmerite for how it gleamed or “shimmered” in the dark. The process involved specialised unicorn miners, using their magic to “lash” out at the rock, weakening it enough so that normal pickaxes can be used. Although effective, the process is taxing on the unicorns, and most eventually would suffer from magical burn out. (similar to how Sandy used up all his magical reserves.)

This brought them to their next dilemma. What to do with this newly mined Shimmerite? At this point, Doth’s lieutenant suggested they fashioned armour out of the ore, since it has the potential to deflect even the strongest steel weapons. With great difficulty, they melted down the ore and fashioned a suit of armour. Their first test exceeded even their wildest expectations. The shimmerite armour was incredibly resistant to all conventional weaponry and even magical attacks. Moreover, it seemed to have an affinity for dark magics, absorbing negative energy and using it to augment itself. So impressed was Doth by this, that the villagers was greeted by his personal army the very next day. The small village were overwhelmed in a matter of minutes, aided by treachery by their “benefactors”. The villagers were enslaved and put to work in mining more shimmerite. Due to the village’s remote location and their non-affiliation with the Republic, nothing was done to contain Doth. He soon fortified the village into his personal fortress and has barred entry to any outsiders. Reports of armed guard towers and barricades guarding the entrances to the valley soon reached the nearby towns and cities. It is currently unknown what Doth has planned, though astute observers predicted the warlord wouldn't rest on his heels forever...

(Luka’s backstory needn’t change too dramatically, and can still be fitted in without substantial changes, since they appear to deal mostly with the latter half of this.)

[Luka]

Uh, most of it is K, but there's kind of a problem or two:

-Shimmerite doesn't have affinity to dark magic, that's gloomium, the "reversed" version of it, original shimmerite has affinity to light magic, otherwise it wouldn't make much sense for a family of good-aligned knights to use it for light-based powers.
-When did exactly start to be mined out? and when was the armor made? it couldn't have been attacked the next day, given that Luka's entire family has armor and weapons made of it and had to train on it's use.
-Also, the fortification thing, the village being unaffiliated would help solve some problems like why isn't there an entire expedition to take it back, though thing is that they were spotted, it would be a problem since their entire actions in the town were to precisely avoid any sign of the invasion from leaking out and they put wards around the place, that's why "John" sent them to kill those targets, pretty much their entire actions ingame were "We do NOT want others to know we're here".

Also, the unnamed unicorn is called Verdant....Iforgothislastname, he doesn't have tentacles on him, it's just a spell he has.
And the army's purpose being to find more shimmerite seems a bit odd.... I mean, if it wasn't established shimmerite was pretty odd and hard to find, how does conquering the town guarantee finding more? It kind of makes sense, since their main objective is power, and to reach one that goes above that of the alicorns, but I don't really know how conquering the town would help them find more.

[Mindfreak]

*Poke people to the Schoolhouse of Terror*

[Kelvin360]

Also, I have a question for Mindfreak. Are those shadow ponies physical magically-created constructs, or actual shadow beings? Because I'd like to take a moment to reccommend the former, since Arvadraa has her whole 'controls shadow and darkness' schtick to worry about.

[Grif]

Uh, most of it is K, but there's kind of a problem or two:

-Shimmerite doesn't have affinity to dark magic, that's gloomium, the "reversed" version of it, original shimmerite has affinity to light magic, otherwise it wouldn't make much sense for a family of good-aligned knights to use it for light-based powers.

I'm taking the liberty to change it here, since I don't really want to deal with two sort of "special" material that somehow managed not be found throughout history and suddenly is found now. It's... really awkward to explain all that.

-When did exactly start to be mined out? and when was the armor made? it couldn't have been attacked the next day, given that Luka's entire family has armor and weapons made of it and had to train on it's use.

Leaving it vague. Best guess is around six months. Note that I'm taking very large liberties with Luka's original backstory. If you feel this is not to your liking, I'll consider changing it.

-Also, the fortification thing, the village being unaffiliated would help solve some problems like why isn't there an entire expedition to take it back, though thing is that they were spotted, it would be a problem since their entire actions in the town were to precisely avoid any sign of the invasion from leaking out and they put wards around the place, that's why "John" sent them to kill those targets, pretty much their entire actions ingame were "We do NOT want others to know we're here".

Mmm, you can think of it this way. Ponies know that they taken over the village. They don't know how big an army he has, nor the fact that he's mining shimmerite at the moment. So the fortifications keep nosy outsiders out (like Blueshield) and they also warded the village to give the illusion that nothing much is happening. (Not invisible mind. Someone will get suspicious.) In other words, he's counting on the NLR to just disregard him as a small-time warlord until he built up enough force to directly challenge their rule.

Also, the unnamed unicorn is called Verdant....Iforgothislastname, he doesn't have tentacles on him, it's just a spell he has.

Ah, thanks, it's something I was wondering.

And the army's purpose being to find more shimmerite seems a bit odd.... I mean, if it wasn't established shimmerite was pretty odd and hard to find, how does conquering the town guarantee finding more? It kind of makes sense, since their main objective is power, and to reach one that goes above that of the alicorns, but I don't really know how conquering the town would help them find more.

Well, I'll explain it here. The nearest town that could challenge Doth's rule of Rusty Falls at the moment is Bridle Shores. Taking the town would definitely break the NLR rule over the area, since the next nearest town is <insert generic city>. With Bridle Shores down, he wouldn't need to creep around the country side to search for more shimmerite. He'd probably also gain new followers/recruits who might flock to him once Bridle Shores is taken.

Also, why to search for more shimmerite? Because there's only one source so far, and it can only produce so much of the material. It stands to logic that there might be more sources of shimmerite nearby. By finding more mines, he can easily double/triple his output, giving him the ability to equip his entire army with it. Once he equips his entire army, he can go for the throat and start challenging the Republic directly.

[TheAmishPirate]

I'm taking the liberty to change it here, since I don't really want to deal with two sort of "special" material that somehow managed not be found throughout history and suddenly is found now. It's... really awkward to explain all that.

Not to mention that, from an alignment stance, it makes more sense to give the armor the ability to absorb/grow more powerful when exposed to dark magics. After all, what better tool for a paladin to use than an armor that literally consumes evil and turns it against its wielder?

Of course, the downside to this is that, should the material and armor fall into the wrong hooves, it can be effectively self-powered. A mage can simply cast the appropriate spells at himself or his allies, the armor will absorb it, and grow more powerful. This would likely make casting such spells offensively problematic, seeing how the armor would be constantly leeching power from the spell, but perhaps that is an acceptable loss to Doth; strength of body and armaments over strength of horn.


EDIT: I'd like to apologize for my general inactivity here. I know we're smack in the middle of brainstorming up what to do next with this setting and direction is indeed needed there, but I'm also graduating in about three weeks and swamped with work. Believe me, I haven't forgotten about you all and I'll be giving this the proper work it needs, but that's going to have to wait until after I'm back home and getting actual sleep again. I'll have to ask your patience on that front, and I'm sorry for the delay.

[Luka]

Not to mention that, from an alignment stance, it makes more sense to give the armor the ability to absorb/grow more powerful when exposed to dark magics. After all, what better tool for a paladin to use than an armor that literally consumes evil and turns it against its wielder?

No it wouldn't, unless the paladin used dark magics, which obviously wouldn't be done by a paladin.
I mean, it would be ok if it was that it gained resistance against dark magic, but make it a dark material wouldn't not just not fit with it "shimmerite" name but also screw over with it's magic capabilities used by paladins/crusaders/knights/etc, who would be using rather light-based metals to empower their skills and gain resistance against dark-based attacks, making shimmerite have afinity to dark magic changes it's alignment too, it's basically naturaly-formed gloomium now, no paladin would ever use that now.

I'm taking the liberty to change it here, since I don't really want to deal with two sort of "special" material that somehow managed not be found throughout history and suddenly is found now. It's... really awkward to explain all that.

Gloomium is just a refined form of shimmerite, not really "suddenly" found, but honestly, shimmerite shouldn't be changed (and it's even technically not controlled by the army's plot but Luka's backstory) and changing shimmerite to be equal to gloomium is a bad idea, not only would it be completely resistant to light magic for pretty much being "naturaly dark" instead of breaking back to it's natural state before it was reverted, thereby making it a lot stronger for the army, but because it makes it a "naturaly dark" metal you're reversing it's entire role completely except by name, which makes it not make much sense.

Leaving it vague. Best guess is around six months. Note that I'm taking very large liberties with Luka's original backstory. If you feel this is not to your liking, I'll consider changing it.

The slavery thing is K (though it breaks an encounter I had made), though I had it proposed as being made several years ago along with town isolation to escape the whole war thing, maybe if it was made around 8 months-1 year, and if Doth waited to see how they developed it and attempted to make more effective methods for mining and training and finding a way to make the gloomium, then they would attack?

Mmm, you can think of it this way. Ponies know that they taken over the village. They don't know how big an army he has, nor the fact that he's mining shimmerite at the moment. So the fortifications keep nosy outsiders out (like Blueshield) and they also warded the village to give the illusion that nothing much is happening. (Not invisible mind. Someone will get suspicious.) In other words, he's counting on the NLR to just disregard him as a small-time warlord until he built up enough force to directly challenge their rule.

The prisoner that's still stuck in the guardhouse said they were thousands back when he got interrogated, in fact, the army wouldn't really have any problem sharing that, for intimidating their enemies and such, and the attacks already revealed he's mining that AND refining/corrupting it for dark power; the whole problem is that their enemies would know where they are, and that would be a problem, since that would make random onlookers start to appear around, and make the town send stuff that way too, not to mention that possibly an army would get there too if the NLR stops disregarding them.
The wards are mostly for illusion, to make it look like the town's still there, but not the whole fortifications around the place, because otherwise they would get in REAL trouble.

Well, I'll explain it here. The nearest town that could challenge Doth's rule of Rusty Falls at the moment is Bridle Shores. Taking the town would definitely break the NLR rule over the area, since the next nearest town is <insert generic city>. With Bridle Shores down, he wouldn't need to creep around the country side to search for more shimmerite. He'd probably also gain new followers/recruits who might flock to him once Bridle Shores is taken.

Also, why to search for more shimmerite? Because there's only one source so far, and it can only produce so much of the material. It stands to logic that there might be more sources of shimmerite nearby. By finding more mines, he can easily double/triple his output, giving him the ability to equip his entire army with it. Once he equips his entire army, he can go for the throat and start challenging the Republic directly.

Yeah, the first thing makes sense, thanks

Second is still confusing though, how would they know there's more sources nearby outside of the valley? as far it's known shimmerite is pretty rare, only known place is inside the valley. All he would do by getting the town is claim more territory for search, but that wouldn't exactly guarantee he would find more metal.

[TheAmishPirate]

No it wouldn't, unless the paladin used dark magics, which obviously wouldn't be done by a paladin.
I mean, it would be ok if it was that it gained resistance against dark magic, but make it a dark material wouldn't not just not fit with it "shimmerite" name but also screw over with it's magic capabilities used by paladins/crusaders/knights/etc, who would be using rather light-based metals to empower their skills and gain resistance against dark-based attacks, making shimmerite have afinity to dark magic changes it's alignment too, it's basically naturaly-formed gloomium now, no paladin would ever use that now.

What part of "absorbing" isn't resistance?

not only would it be completely resistant to light magic for pretty much being "naturaly dark"

That right there is an assumption, and was never stated.

Second is still confusing though, how would they know there's more sources nearby outside of the valley? as far it's known shimmerite is pretty rare, only known place is inside the valley. All he would do by getting the town is claim more territory for search, but that wouldn't exactly guarantee he would find more metal.

Emphasis mine.

Where are you more likely to find more rich veins of the stuff? In the area surrounding a vast mine, or by picking a location at random and saying, "Let's mine here, guys!"

It isn't about guarantees, it's about the best possible guess.


You seem to be freely mixing between your explanations and what Grif has come up with. Make sure that you read what he has carefully before you object to something, as it's probable that he's included something that makes it a non-issue.

[Luka]

What part of "absorbing" isn't resistance?

The part where it's absorbing it, having an affinity to it and by logic being pretty much a dark material itself, that's not resisting it that's just throwing fire into fire.

That right there is an assumption, and was never stated.

It was widely stated in game in Kelvin's scenes, that gloomium's main weakness was shooting it with a lot of light magic so it turned back to normal, if the dark material was shimmerite it wouldn't have anything to revert back to since it's naturaly dark.

Emphasis mine.

Where are you more likely to find more rich veins of the stuff? In the area surrounding a vast mine, or by picking a location at random and saying, "Let's mine here, guys!"

It isn't about guarantees, it's about the best possible guess.

You seem to be freely mixing between your explanations and what Grif has come up with. Make sure that you read what he has carefully before you object to something, as it's probable that he's included something that makes it a non-issue.

I don't know how ores work geologically so I can't exactly know if that's even correct. But if you took it's scarcity then wouldn't it require country-sized territories to search for rather than town or county-sized?

[TheAmishPirate]

The part where it's absorbing it, having an affinity to it and by logic being pretty much a dark material itself, that's not resisting it that's just throwing fire into fire.

Salt water has an affinity for electricity, and is decidedly not electricity itself. The logic doesn't really hold, and that's still an assumption you're making.

It was widely stated in game in Kelvin's scenes, that gloomium's main weakness was shooting it with a lot of light magic so it turned back to normal, if the dark material was shimmerite it wouldn't have anything to revert back to since it's naturaly dark.

See previous post regarding mixing up past information with Grif's.

As it stands, we have no information about how the material reacts to light-based magic, thus making this guesswork on our part, so I'ma just wait for Grif to clarify.

I don't know how ores work geologically so I can't exactly know if that's even correct. But if you took it's scarcity then wouldn't it require country-sized territories to search for rather than town or county-sized?

Yes, that is how it typically works geologically.

You also have forgotten that by capturing/enslaving Bridle Shores, Doth ensures his control over an area much larger than the town. Thus, he is able to mine the earth freely over a wide area, instead of just in Rusty Falls.

[Luka]

Salt water has an affinity for electricity, and is decidedly not electricity itself. The logic doesn't really hold, and that's still an assumption you're making.

But saltwater doesn't make a good electric isolator, so chances are it's most likely to be electrically charged or conducting it around, so it's alignment is electrical and not isolator, same with the metals, you have a metal with affinity to dark magic and the ability to empower itself with it? then that metal is dark, why? because it coducts it and is empowered by whereas a "light" metal is know to harness a force that intrinsically repels it, it doesn't absorb it to power itself.

See previous post regarding mixing up past information with Grif's.

As it stands, we have no information about how the material reacts to light-based magic, thus making this guesswork on our part, so I'ma just wait for Grif to clarify.

Gonna wait on that too, thing is I'm heavily against the "affinity to dark magic" part.

Yes, that is how it typically works geologically.

You also have forgotten that by capturing/enslaving Bridle Shores, Doth ensures his control over an area much larger than the town. Thus, he is able to mine the earth freely over a wide area, instead of just in Rusty Falls.

Like I said, no idea about that geological part so I can't tell if you're right or not about it.

Read my last post, I said "country-sized rather than town or county-sized", but right about the capturing/enslaving part.

[Kelvin360]

*dramatically slams open the thread door*

OBJECTION!!

Hamminess having been dealt with, I believe I can help from a technically co-author standpoint (Luka and I discussed Shimmerite before all this in PMs). While I don't have the benefit of Luka's headcanon, I do think I can add another brain on his side to assist in straightening a few things out.

First off, Shimmerite isn't confined to that one area as a metal deposit. It is, however, exceedingly rare. It works on rather the same concept of it's easier to find diamond in a diamond deposit than a random spot in Arizona. Except that in this case, Arizona is huge.

See previous post regarding mixing up past information with Grif's.

As it stands, we have no information about how the material reacts to light-based magic, thus making this guesswork on our part, so I'ma just wait for Grif to clarify.

I have a response to this, but I'm not sure whether you're talking about Gloomium or Shimmerite. Though it does bring me to my next point.

Glooooooomiuuuuum. *flash of lightning, ominous laughter* Honestly, I'm not sure what the big deal is with Gloomium. It's not like it's an entirely new deposit. Every scrap of Gloomium produced comes from a Shimmerite total. It's just Shimmerite with reversed tertiary properties. Heck, quite a bit of the Transmutation school of magic is all about changing something into another, and if you're good enough, turning light to dark isn't any more of a stretch than turning a fireball into an iceball.

That all having been said, I do have an issue I've been meaning to bring up.

The Dark Army should not have nearly even close to enough Shimmerite to be able to outfit all of their people with Gloomium armor and weapons. Not even all of their elite troops. It's rare for a reason. An alloy with just a splash of the stuff put in for a comparatively small enhancement boost is workable, but I think what we've been seeing is pure sets of Shimmerite or Gloomium. And that seems...I dunno, unrealistic? (In a world where we play as magical talking ponies, but still.)

To compare, it took Taylor 20+ years of near-constant digging, scraping, investigating, and draining to gather up enough Shimmerite for his shield, and it's still not even 100% pure.

So! Those having been addressed, I still probably missed a few issues, so let me know if that's the case and I'll see what I can do to help y'all brainstorm or un-muddle.

[TheAmishPirate]

Alright, mostly for Grif's sake when he wakes up and sees all this, the two main points are:

1) Full sets of armor/weapons should be rare, but alloys can do the trick as well. (See also: Roy's starmetal sword from the comic)

2) This Gloomium stuff is essentially Shimmerite, but with the polarity reversed or some nonsense. This may end up being a moot point, as under the proposed canon we don't yet know how the stuff works with holy/light magic.

I still don't think that it's terribly far-fetched to assume that Doth might be able to uncover more deposits if he had access to the whole reigion. Besides, there's that whole bit of having the area in a virtual stranglehold if he takes Bridle Shores, such that he might only need the one deposit. More would help, but they aren't required for his plan.

***********************

Also, I'd like to take this opportunity to apologize to Grif for giving him a bit of misinformation. I had forgotten that Taylor's shield/knowledge of Shimmeritte was a thing, and I think he subsequently based his new stuff off the assumption that this was an entirely brand-new metal. That's on me, and I'm sorry for making this far more complicated as a result of my derp. >.<

[Luka]

Alright, mostly for Grif's sake when he wakes up and sees all this, the two main points are:

1) Full sets of armor/weapons should be rare, but alloys can do the trick as well. (See also: Roy's starmetal sword from the comic)

2) This Gloomium stuff is essentially Shimmerite, but with the polarity reversed or some nonsense. This may end up being a moot point, as under the proposed canon we don't yet know how the stuff works with holy/light magic.

I still don't think that it's terribly far-fetched to assume that Doth might be able to uncover more deposits if he had access to the whole reigion. Besides, there's that whole bit of having the area in a virtual stranglehold if he takes Bridle Shores, such that he might only need the one deposit. More would help, but they aren't required for his plan.

Mostly point 2 is what I meant

Pretty much what Kelvin said, including it's transformation, the alloy thing is new though, thanks to him for coming up with it, could help for future stuff.

However, about it's scarcity, I haven't pictured it as being that hard to find or small in quantity, I mean, sure, harder to find than diamond, but not like to take 20+ years to find .
The valley's deposit was kind of planned to have kind of a large amount of it (there's currently a big pillar of it towering inside the valley, all thanks to Barb), mostly for the sake of making it practically infine so other players could have the chance to tinker with it and do stuff if they wished, but as solution I got some propositions to explain it.

-"concentrated exceedingly rare veins", that means, shimmerite would be hard, HARD to find, like Kelvin said, easier to find in a deposit than finding in a random spot, however is more a "random spot in USA" than "random spot in arizona", there would be some less rare to find veins too, of smaller size and less purity than the concentrated one, but more practical to find.

-"deep veins", it could be that the ore's so hard to find because it's main veins are usually reeeeeeeeeeally deep, like kilometers deep (earth deepest mine is 3.9 KM deep into the crust), however there would be some smaller veins above, it's possible that the village struck with a lucky peak of one of them.

[Grif]

Alright, mostly for Grif's sake when he wakes up and sees all this, the two main points are:

1) Full sets of armor/weapons should be rare, but alloys can do the trick as well. (See also: Roy's starmetal sword from the comic)

2) This Gloomium stuff is essentially Shimmerite, but with the polarity reversed or some nonsense. This may end up being a moot point, as under the proposed canon we don't yet know how the stuff works with holy/light magic.

I still don't think that it's terribly far-fetched to assume that Doth might be able to uncover more deposits if he had access to the whole reigion. Besides, there's that whole bit of having the area in a virtual stranglehold if he takes Bridle Shores, such that he might only need the one deposit. More would help, but they aren't required for his plan.

***********************

Also, I'd like to take this opportunity to apologize to Grif for giving him a bit of misinformation. I had forgotten that Taylor's shield/knowledge of Shimmeritte was a thing, and I think he subsequently based his new stuff off the assumption that this was an entirely brand-new metal. That's on me, and I'm sorry for making this far more complicated as a result of my derp. >.<

Woah, so many new posts. (for the thread.)

@Amish
No problem. This is what the OOC thread is for: to hash out these ideas and correct any bit of misinformation in advance. In the grand scheme of things, whether or not shimmerite is a new metal is relatively unimportant. The miners can easily be unaware of shimmerite, given how rare it is supposed to be. (I'm just going to miss my little blurb on how shimmerite is named. )

On shimmerite and gloomium:
I propose we nix gloomium altogether, since if it is just shimmerite with some properties reversed, then we may as well drop it. Two metals/alloys that does the same thing is redundant. Instead, what I propose is this:

Shimmerite absorbs dark energy and grows stronger in their presence. (By stronger mean could mean a) magical resistance, magical feedback when touched, and just being able to deflect even the strongest conventional weaponry, like Arvradaa shadowskin.) However, any energy collected in this process can easily be reversed with holy/light magic, rendering the metal/alloy inert and making it just an expensive version of normal steel instead.

On the rarity of shimmerite:
As Amish noted, it's just a best guess estimate (on Doth's calculations) that Doth would even find any more shimmerite deposits. If he does, then great. If not, then his plans would go on, albeit slower.

(Would post more, but time limited.)

[Luka]

On shimmerite and gloomium:
I propose we nix gloomium altogether, since if it is just shimmerite with some properties reversed, then we may as well drop it. Two metals/alloys that does the same thing is redundant. Instead, what I propose is this:

Shimmerite absorbs dark energy and grows stronger in their presence. (By stronger mean could mean a) magical resistance, magical feedback when touched, and just being able to deflect even the strongest conventional weaponry, like Arvradaa shadowskin.) However, any energy collected in this process can easily be reversed with holy/light magic, rendering the metal/alloy inert and making it just an expensive version of normal steel instead.

Eh.... Both don't do the same thing, in fact they do the inverse
Gloomium is a dark metal, it's capable of empowering itself with dark energy and such, shimmerite is a light metal, does the same, but only with light magic.
Their difference is the same as the one between a paladin and a blackguard, a white mage and a necromancer, fire and ice, lasers and boolets. What you're saying it does is pretty much what gloomium does, except ignoring that training on it's use enables the user to use dark skills instead of light skills, so I don't see how a paladin would still use it since a paladin would just plain render it useless. So I don't think eliminating gloomium for that would help, in fact, it may even just complicate stuff.
That's like giving a paladin a "light shiny sword"........ Which empowers itself by being attacked with dark spells and throws them back (with chances of empowering the enemy), but whenever the paladin casts something it's a normal sword, I doubt there would be any "light shiny" in that sword.

Now, dunno if you're putting the ideas asuming my characters are already retired, but even so, shimmerite would conflict with Taylor's shield too.

[TheAmishPirate]

Eh.... Both don't do the same thing, in fact they do the inverse

What Grif is saying is that the two types of metals would mechanically work the same, just with different empowering and disempowering elements.

And as I write that, a rebuttal comes to mind for the existence of both types of metal; if the dark version of Shimmerite can be purified/negated/de-powered by light magic, then why can't the light version of Shimmerite be corrupted/negated/de-powered by dark magic? If they really are the same metal with flipped elemental properties, then they should work the same, right?

So, if your grand magical paladin power armor - your ace in the hole, the thing that will give you the edge over the villain - can be rendered moot by a school of spells that are almost exclusively used by said villains?

Seems like a bit of a major design flaw to me.

The changes Grif is proposing fix this problem. Dramatically, IMO. The armor grows stronger and harder the more it is exposed to dark magics - things that paladins will run into quite a lot - and can be cleansed with a good dose of light magics - things that paladins will most likely have. When in the right hooves, the armor turns into a dual-edged sword; evil's strength is turned against it, while the paladin must constantly keep his armor in check, lest the darkness within it grow too great. The very model of self-sacrifice that many paladins seek to embody.

When in the wrong hooves, it turns into a selfish mockery of its intended purpose; a self-sustaining engine of destruction that corrupts the already black heart within it. But as the user trades long-term morality, wellness, and possible sanity for short-term power, there is a great cost. One Good mage, one mighty holder of the Light, and what was their source of strength becomes their prison and soon-to-be tomb.

That, to me, is far more interesting than a metal that essentially plays Rock-Paper-Scissors with alignments.

[PurityIcekiller]

That raises another question: What about good ponies who are more "dark", evil ponies who are more "light", and ponies who simply don't have magical powers at all?

[Luka]

What Grif is saying is that the two types of metals would mechanically work the same, just with different empowering and disempowering elements.

And as I write that, a rebuttal comes to mind for the existence of both types of metal; if the dark version of Shimmerite can be purified/negated/de-powered by light magic, then why can't the light version of Shimmerite be corrupted/negated/de-powered by dark magic? If they really are the same metal with flipped elemental properties, then they should work the same, right?

Because gloomium transformation is not perfect.
As it was left before, shimmerite had only resistance to dark magic given by how much it radiates light energy, doesn't mean it's "magic shield" can't get overwhelmed and shut down in a way similar to the plate Night Jewel tinkered with. Gloomium? it's a refined version of shimmerite which has undergone a process to reverse it's polarity to the dark side, however, it's is essentialy still shimmerite, just mostly reversed, but when overwhelmed by a lot of light magic it turns back to normal, think a battery............Wrapped in a lot of plastic, the battery's still in the middle but the plastic insulates it.
Doth, however, has one that would have undergone a more complex process which would have been kind of reconstructing shimmerite into a form which would be entirely gloomium

So, if your grand magical paladin power armor - your ace in the hole, the thing that will give you the edge over the villain - can be rendered moot by a school of spells that are almost exclusively used by said villains?

Seems like a bit of a major design flaw to me.

The changes Grif is proposing fix this problem. Dramatically, IMO. The armor grows stronger and harder the more it is exposed to dark magics - things that paladins will run into quite a lot - and can be cleansed with a good dose of light magics - things that paladins will most likely have. When in the right hooves, the armor turns into a dual-edged sword; evil's strength is turned against it, while the paladin must constantly keep his armor in check, lest the darkness within it grow too great. The very model of self-sacrifice that many paladins seek to embody.

When in the wrong hooves, it turns into a selfish mockery of its intended purpose; a self-sustaining engine of destruction that corrupts the already black heart within it. But as the user trades long-term morality, wellness, and possible sanity for short-term power, there is a great cost. One Good mage, one mighty holder of the Light, and what was their source of strength becomes their prison and soon-to-be tomb.

That, to me, is far more interesting than a metal that essentially plays Rock-Paper-Scissors with alignments.

Yes, it's rendered moot, why? because paladins don't go around casting "Death wave" or "Dark slice", which is the kind of skills gloomium empowers. Thing is the armor would grow stronger and everything.... Then lose it all when the paladin uses a single power of his'/her's, at most, it's just a bigger form of resistance against dark attacks, but otherwise? useless, it's just going to lose it's power whenever the paladin uses a skill and possibly consume that skill to eliminate the dark energy, that's not "self-sacrifice", that's just a paladin wearing gloomium, that's essensialy turning shimmerite into gloomium.
What you're pretty much proposing is that a water mage should wear fire robes because it could fetch fire magic which would be casted by fire mages even if it weakens his water magic, instead of the water robes which would not only have resistance to fire, but would empower his water magic, supporting him most of the time instead of hindering his magic and make a lot more tactical and nominal sense.

And if shimmerite worked like that, that would be even less reason for the army to use it, why use a magical armor supposed to be stronger when it's whole purpose is going to be physical strength completely lost whenever a light-based enemy appears? which could possibly be very often? that's not the "same" thing you know, that's even more reason for them to develop glomium....

Thing is, the armor is not "rock paper scissors", it's a dualistic alignment, light vs dark, shimmerite originally has resistance against dark and could empower light-based powers in a manner akin to a horn when trained with, shuts down when overwhelmed; gloomium has resistance against light and could empower dark-based powers in a manner akin to a horn when trained with, shuts down when overwhelmed (common reversed versions turn back to shimmerite when overwhelmed by light-based powers)

@PIK the Light is not good and dark is not evil is averted in their cases, since for shimmerite, positive energy's source are positive stuff, such as selflessness, compassion and such, while for gloomium the negative energy's powered by hatred, greed, etc. Those are stated in Doth's and Luka's character sheets.
So, in the case of Batman, it wouldn't be recommendable for him to use shimmerite, he would need to find a dark but good version, Darkcite?

[Kelvin360]

I'm baa-aaaaack....

Okay, a few more points to raise from moi.

While I really really do like the idea of Amish's, I think it should be placed somewhere else. The entire purpose of creating Shimmerite in the first place was that it was the mineral embodiment of light and its accompaniments, plain and simple. If you want to go through with that idea of yours (which, I want to point out again, I think is REALLY cool), the most obvious course is to just create another type of substance with those properties and call it something else, and dispose of Shimmerite entirely.

Also, Luka raises an interesting question for me. Do Shimmerite and Gloomium respond to alterations in energy signatures (by which I mean 'I CAST EMPOWERED SUNBURST') or changes/consistencies in brain functions (by which I mean 'the color of the night sky mirrors the darkness in my soul ')? Or both?

[TheAmishPirate]

On the plus side, it seems that we've generally ironed out the plot details, and are just hashing out the mechanics of this stuff.

I'd post more in response to Kelvin and folks, but I'd rather let Grif have the chance to catch up and put in his own two bits. Y'know, since he's kindly offered to take on the whole army plot and all that.

[Grif]

@Luka and Kelvin
Okay, so let's get this straight. Shimmerite and Gloomium is just the physical embodiment of... positive and dark energies?

Okay... hmm... I'll be frank. That sounds just dull. Don't get me wrong, I'm not rejecting the concept, but if there was all there is to the two, then... hmm... there isn't really much to say about it, isn't there? Also, I'm not even sure how a rock can radiate positive/negative energies when it's just... a rock/metal? Does the rock just emanate positive/negative energy innately? Was it blessed/cursed from before? How does it form?

Also, Luka, when I wrote this bit, I was just dredging my own story without taking into account the details of your backstory. Which is why I brought it here for review, to see if we can hammer something out of it to a compromise acceptable to all parties.

That raises another question: What about good ponies who are more "dark", evil ponies who are more "light", and ponies who simply don't have magical powers at all?

I'm not sure I understand the question here. Are you asking how the shimmerite (my version at least) affects those are morally grey?

Because gloomium transformation is not perfect.
As it was left before, shimmerite had only resistance to dark magic given by how much it radiates light energy, doesn't mean it's "magic shield" can't get overwhelmed and shut down in a way similar to the plate Night Jewel tinkered with. Gloomium? it's a refined version of shimmerite which has undergone a process to reverse it's polarity to the dark side, however, it's is essentialy still shimmerite, just mostly reversed, but when overwhelmed by a lot of light magic it turns back to normal, think a battery............Wrapped in a lot of plastic, the battery's still in the middle but the plastic insulates it.
Doth, however, has one that would have undergone a more complex process which would have been kind of reconstructing shimmerite into a form which would be entirely gloomium



Yes, it's rendered moot, why? because paladins don't go around casting "Death wave" or "Dark slice", which is the kind of skills gloomium empowers. Thing is the armor would grow stronger and everything.... Then lose it all when the paladin uses a single power of his'/her's, at most, it's just a bigger form of resistance against dark attacks, but otherwise? useless, it's just going to lose it's power whenever the paladin uses a skill and possibly consume that skill to eliminate the dark energy, that's not "self-sacrifice", that's just a paladin wearing gloomium, that's essensialy turning shimmerite into gloomium.
What you're pretty much proposing is that a water mage should wear fire robes because it could fetch fire magic which would be casted by fire mages even if it weakens his water magic, instead of the water robes which would not only have resistance to fire, but would empower his water magic, supporting him most of the time instead of hindering his magic and make a lot more tactical and nominal sense.

And if shimmerite worked like that, that would be even less reason for the army to use it, why use a magical armor supposed to be stronger when it's whole purpose is going to be physical strength completely lost whenever a light-based enemy appears? which could possibly be very often? that's not the "same" thing you know, that's even more reason for them to develop glomium....

Thing is, the armor is not "rock paper scissors", it's a dualistic alignment, light vs dark, shimmerite originally has resistance against dark and could empower light-based powers in a manner akin to a horn when trained with, shuts down when overwhelmed; gloomium has resistance against light and could empower dark-based powers in a manner akin to a horn when trained with, shuts down when overwhelmed (common reversed versions turn back to shimmerite when overwhelmed by light-based powers)

Hmm... lemme get this straight. Shimmerite and gloomium are the same metal, but the polarity reversed? They also have resistance against their opposite alignment, correct? Tell me then. If they both have resistance against their opposite alignment, wouldn't it be impossible to even reverse the polarity as you described? If they get overwhelmed, then they should be destroyed no? Or rendered inert. Hmmm, I don't know, I just have trouble grasping this concept.

[TheAmishPirate]

I think another problem here is that the current definition of Shimmerite/Gloomium is very, very vague and full of wibbly-wobbly terms. I've lost count of the number of times we've tossed about the words/phrases "grow stronger", "dark", "light", "empower", "embodiment", etc. with very little explanation as to what those terms mechanically mean. Like Grif is saying, if all the metal boils down to is the "embodiment of light", then...so what? What's so special about it? How is it formed? How does it work? How does it even exist? Isn't something that continually radiates magical energy forever kind of breaking a fundamental law of the universe?

And then from a story standpoint, so what? To the best of my understanding, you've got a metal that essentially acts as a spell-focus mithril, or some other fancy better-than-steel metal. Only, its special "empowering" functions are useless to 2/3 of the pony population that can't actually cast spells.* On top of that, the remaining third is cut even further by the fact that it relies on two rather focused schools of spells. And the payoff? The select few who can use the armor get some sort of boost to their fighting prowess and defensive abilities, at little to no drawback, personal cost, or even training beyond armor proficiency.

Now mind you, this is all off my understanding of the metal, which could be flawed (see the above questions) but it still makes me think; original concept or no, can't we at least do a little better than that?

*This is also a problem with my idea, but a bit more easily handled by giving the armor some sort of exhaust/release system that anypony can use. Command word, mental action, etc.

[PurityIcekiller]

I'm not sure I understand the question here. Are you asking how the shimmerite (my version at least) affects those are morally grey?

To some extent, but not entirely.

For one thing, Dark Is Not Evil and Light Is Not Good. For instance, Night Jewel, for all her weird moral standards, is most likely Good-aligned, and definitely more suited to darkness. (Not that she's at all interested in using armour of any kind, but it's the principle of the thing.) What do you intend to do about that?

The other thing I was trying to say is that, like Amish said, not every character has awesome magical powers. Blades is a straight-out Badass Normal, for one, and Blueshield would be one were it not for her wings. Even those who do have magic don't necessarily have the right kind - Flare's magic is pretty much based around earth and fire, but not light or darkness at all. Those ponies get the short end of the stick.

Oh, by the way, I'm very sorry.

[Benson]

On a random note, we do have the space metals that Balboa was scouring the planet to acquire. The same metal that the Cirrus uses on its balloon portion to protect it but yet at the same time does not weigh it down due to its special properties.

The space metal has also been used by Balboa as the only material that has been able to contain the volatile energies that are the magical nukes he's been researching and creating.

I just figured I'd mentioned this so its not forgotten about and doesn't look like some sort of butt pull when its mentioned again in game.

[Kelvin360]

'Embodiment of light' was maybe the wrong turn of phrase. I should have used 'intended to resemble'. The metals themselves don't produce magic aside from their natural strength (which I'll get to later), they're magnifying glasses, in simplest terms.

Also, Amish, you answered your own question in the same paragraph.

And then from a story standpoint, so what? To the best of my understanding, you've got a metal that essentially acts as a spell-focus mithril, or some other fancy better-than-steel metal. Only, its special "empowering" functions are useless to 2/3 of the pony population that can't actually cast spells.* On top of that, the remaining third is cut even further by the fact that it relies on two rather focused schools of spells. And the payoff? The select few who can use the armor get some sort of boost to their fighting prowess and defensive abilities, at little to no drawback, personal cost, or even training beyond armor proficiency.

Emphasis mine. Even if you can't use either type of magic, it's worth mining to have access to something you can use in manufacturing that's hard, lightweight, and magic-resistant.

Which brings me to another thing; Think of Shimmerite as a very selective Noble Gas. In this case, it's reactive on a magical scale rather than an elemental one. With light, it becomes the aforementioned magnifying glass for power, but with other types of magic, it tends not to react at all, or react very little (thus the magic resistance), and with dark-ey-ness, it's like tossing sodium into water, just with less explosions and more deterioration.

It's not at all useless to the other 94% of the population. In fact, it would be more accurate to say that it's just even better for that 6%.

Hmm... lemme get this straight. Shimmerite and gloomium are the same metal, but the polarity reversed? They also have resistance against their opposite alignment, correct? Tell me then. If they both have resistance against their opposite alignment, wouldn't it be impossible to even reverse the polarity as you described? If they get overwhelmed, then they should be destroyed no? Or rendered inert. Hmmm, I don't know, I just have trouble grasping this concept.

Not only would it be very very difficult (possibly bordering on nigh impossible), but also very volatile until stabilized. But hey, if 136,000 experience points let you stop time, then an archmagus that focuses almost exclusively on metal (hello, Barb) should have fewer problems than normal.

She should still be passing out every few shovelfuls, though.

To answer Purity's question, the metal doesn't care what alignment you are. It's a metal. It doesn't have moral standards. It doesn't even necessarily care if you can use magic unless it's that specific magic. Again, picture it as special at first and then special some more in a rare case, not a hunk of junk unless something very specific happens.

And now....slew of questions time! *dance mix*

* What's so special about it?

The word 'special' implies some kind of uniqueness, and, while I heavily doubt Shimmerite in itself is entirely unique (really, planet Earth has had 6000+ years to run the gamut, can anything be legitimately unique anymore?), I've only seen certain types of Starfall Ore go after the concept of a light conductor. Another note here is that when I say 'light', I mean unnaturally-produced light. There is a vast difference between castoffs from a nuclear reaction in space and the magical production of heat and light, and it's an important distinction that Shimmerite ignores the former when determining its properties.

So, 'unique'? Unlikely. 'Different'? Most probably.

* How is it formed?

This one we have a bit of room with. My headcanon was that it used to be just iron deposits that got hit with wayward sunblasts from Celestia during her and Luna's fight with Discord way back when, and in the interval it absorbed some of that power, but I'll admit that does sound kind of lame. Like I said, we've got room to maneuver with this one.

* Darn Shimmerites, how do they work? (Not paraphrased AT ALL)

I'd like to think I did a pretty good job explaining its properties above, but I'll make a handy-dandy list of its properties.

-More resilient
-Lighter
-Nonreactive on a magical level, the exceptions being:
-Light magic, which is empowered when in close contact with it
-Dark magic, which is the only type of magic that can easily penetrate the resistance and also weakens its normal properties slightly while in contact

If it helps, picture +x Sacred Spell Resistant Mithral armor and/or weapons if you shook up the 'Sacred' property to apply more to light/dark than good/evil (like I said, it doesn't care if you're evil, it's a shiny rock)

* How does it even exist?

Well, if we go with my theory above, that explains it. It also explains why its so rare, because I don't picture A) Celly being way too trigger happy and B) that particular side-effect 'taking' in every case.

* Isn't something that continually radiates magical energy forever kind of breaking a fundamental law of the universe?

Yes, but it doesn't radiate anything. It's a reactant, not a catalyst.

[Luka]

Well, to respond or expand Kelvin's explanation....

Think of the metals as being the Paladin equivalent of metals, it's not an "embodiment" but rather an enchanted metal.

Though to expand on Kelvin's response to Amish, the metal itself is a lesser horn, the sleeping stab done by the attackers near the town? Luka's shinning sword and spell reflection? the attacker's slice on the gate's side? metal-powered, it doesn't give them telekinesis, house-wrecking fireballs or such, but part of the training I mentioned on using those things is for their user to be capable of making those powers, when used by a unicorn it becomes a bigger mana bar with a bonus on spell effect, when used by non-unicorns, it makes them able to do MMORPG-ish skills and such kind of stuff, most of them require direct contact though. Doing so requires training though, not just on armor but on manipulating the metals themselves.

On the metals:
how would it have formed?
Different ways, Kelvin's Celly vs Luna, but generally, residual aligned magic that was left on the landscape and condensed into the underground, combined with metallic elements and such (iron, silver, actual mithril, etc, the same effect in each of them anyways) generating an enchanted metal, if not outright enchanting an existing ore vein, though I kind of differ on Kelvin on one thing, since I've mostly pictured that the metals ARE good and evil aligned, given that shimmerite magnifies "positive energy" usually emanated by positive desires (such as protecting the innocent) while gloomium does so but with negative energy (hatred, greed, cruelty, etc), and that those energies would also affect the formation of the metal, an example would be how Luka's magical aura became almost unexistant when he went BSOD after the attack on the southern gate.
However, that doesn't mean there could be Light is not good and Dark is not evil versions (Brillium and Darkcite?) or the case where a Well-intentioned extremist could use shimmerite or an anti-hero could use gloomium

What makes it special?
It's toughness, amplifying ability, versatility and light-weightness.

How does it work?
Toughness? It's stiff and hard, yet light, why? magic density, which would be what makes it kind of hard to craft and why the armors the army carry have so many weak points, such as breaking plates and uncovered joints, while Luka's family armor has an "armadillo" design which overlaps over the joints.
It's magic field? when a trained user uses it, the armor receives either positive or negative energy, which it transforms into it's magic, like Spiral power, just that a bit more linear, when not used it just keeps absorbing residues in the surroundings.
It's magical resistance? pretty much what Kelvin said, it's nonreactive to magic, kind of blocking it, but also it's own magical field generating a sort of "aligned magical shield", which would work as a force field against attacks, however, when it is overwhelmed the shield explodes and the armor's useless for a while until it's magic reserves can condensate into another shield, however, it gains a special resistance against the opposite alignment, just that gloomium reverts back to shimmerite when overwhelmed by light-attacks (whichever light) when it isn't completely gloomium.

How does it even exist?
Condensation, pressure, erosion, many things, but residual magic would need to be in quite a quantity for it's very essence to influence the metals so much, in the valley's case.... It's a valley, most erosion could possibly reach down there easier than usual.

On the breaking the laws of thermodynamic, it transforms positive energy into magic, plus that it's more of a reactive than a catalyst like Kelvin said, it requires activation.

[PurityIcekiller]

OBJECTION! Dark! Not evil! Light! Not good-

Mr. Icekiller, calm yourself. This is a petty thing to get angry about.

...Right. Well, I still object to the whole "dark is evil and light is good" thing. It could be negative and positive emotions, but that still doesn't equal "good" or "evil". Take, for instance...

Blueshield: Full of negative emotions, cynical, and constantly irritated with the world around her. Nonetheless, clearly Lawful Good and definitely better than most of my other characters.

Blades: Cheery, lively, and quite full of positive emotions. Also a murderous psycho from time to time. By no means a good pony.

Night Jewel: Aligned with darkness, but still full of positive emotions. Definitely Chaotic, and probably Good; her moral standards are strange, but they exist and are consistent.

Meanwhile I've got an idea for how Night Jewel could overcome its defences, but I have a question. How resistant is it to natural (not magical) extreme temperatures, lightning, or other such things? If I knew this, I could concoct something for Blueshield.