Maxing out Bardic Knack (through Bardic Knowledge Tricks)

**Getsugaru** · 2012-11-30, 07:22 PM (ISO 8601)

As written on the tin. I am building a bard for an up coming game, and am going to mainly be filling the "jack of all trades" position. To do this, I'm taking Bardic Knack instead of Bardic Knowledge. I've heard that there are Bard prestige classes that happen to stack together to increase your Bardic Knowledge, sending it through the roof. What are they, and how does it work (is it like the caster level trick with the Spellthief?)?

**DeltaEmil** · 2012-11-30, 07:29 PM (ISO 8601)

To maximize your bardic knack, you have to get more classes that explicitely count as bard levels (which only the bard really counts). Any other class or prestige class level is useless to your bardic knack, even if they grant additional caster levels and spell per day or would grant you some lore or bardic knowledge ability, or somehow gave you the ability to cast wish as a spell-like ability at-will.

**Talya** · 2012-12-01, 08:55 AM (ISO 8601)

You've traded Bardic Knowledge away -- they are ultimately equivalent. Anything that stacks with Bardic Knowledge will increase Bardic Knack, you just trade bardic knowledge for bardic knack away on each class that grants it.

That said, Bard 20 is the most versatile a build that exists anywhere in the game. Seriously. Just use the savage bard variant and a big pile of ACFs and bardic feats...

**Getsugaru** · 2012-12-03, 07:47 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Talya

You've traded Bardic Knowledge away -- they are ultimately equivalent. Anything that stacks with Bardic Knowledge will increase Bardic Knack, you just trade bardic knowledge for bardic knack away on each class that grants it.

That said, Bard 20 is the most versatile a build that exists anywhere in the game. Seriously. Just use the savage bard variant and a big pile of ACFs and bardic feats...

The only problem with doing Bard 20 for this is that I'm trying to get past the fact that Bardic Knack only counts half of your bard level, so I thought that by taking Bardic Knowledge prestige classes, I could get around that. Also, I'm planning on using Sublime Chord to get 9th level spells, and it mentioned that it advanced Bardic Knowledge (and, by ACF extension, Bardic Knack). So I was wondering about "Bard" prestige classes; the ones that specifically state they increase "Bard" abilities like Bardic Knowledge and Music...

**ThiagoMartell** · 2012-12-03, 10:13 PM (ISO 8601)

Improvisation and Inspire Competence supplement Bardic Knack well enough for it to be relevant without any cheese, IMHO.

**Tvtyrant** · 2012-12-03, 10:17 PM (ISO 8601)

You could use the Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion trick. Uncanny Trickster progressing Bard, then Legacy Champion progressing Uncanny Trickster progressing Bard (so 2 bard levels), then Uncanny Trickster progressing Legacy Champion progressing Uncanny Trickster progressing Bard. Continue until your DM succeeds in knocking you unconscious with his books.

**prufock** · 2012-12-04, 08:03 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell

Improvisation and Inspire Competence supplement Bardic Knack well enough for it to be relevant without any cheese, IMHO.

You can't Inspire Competence on yourself, though. Toss Heroism into the mix for +2 morale.

**Socratov** · 2012-12-04, 08:30 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Talya

You've traded Bardic Knowledge away -- they are ultimately equivalent. Anything that stacks with Bardic Knowledge will increase Bardic Knack, you just trade bardic knowledge for bardic knack away on each class that grants it.

That said, Bard 20 is the most versatile a build that exists anywhere in the game. Seriously. Just use the savage bard variant and a big pile of ACFs and bardic feats...

Bard 8/Virtouoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8 wants to have a word with you. All bard, with wizard casting

**Sgt. Cookie** · 2012-12-04, 08:31 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Tvtyrant

You could use the Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion trick. Uncanny Trickster progressing Bard, then Legacy Champion progressing Uncanny Trickster progressing Bard (so 2 bard levels), then Uncanny Trickster progressing Legacy Champion progressing Uncanny Trickster progressing Bard. Continue until your DM succeeds in knocking you unconscious with his books.

Alternatively, use Legacy champion to progress Uncanny Trickster which you use to progress Legacy champion to progress Uncanny Trickster, ad infinitum. Your DM will kill you with his books.

**Story** · 2012-12-04, 10:35 AM (ISO 8601)

Paragnostic Apostle advances Bardic Knowledge by two levels for each level you take. RAW, taking a single level might be enough to double your Bardic Knowledge, but I doubt the DM will let that fly.

**Getsugaru** · 2012-12-06, 06:07 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell

Improvisation and Inspire Competence supplement Bardic Knack well enough for it to be relevant without any cheese, IMHO.

Well, that will come in handy...

Originally Posted by Tvtyrant

You could use the Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion trick. Uncanny Trickster progressing Bard, then Legacy Champion progressing Uncanny Trickster progressing Bard (so 2 bard levels), then Uncanny Trickster progressing Legacy Champion progressing Uncanny Trickster progressing Bard. Continue until your DM succeeds in knocking you unconscious with his books.

How long has that trick been common knowledge? I'm guessing I wasn't the first to cause its discovery after all?

Originally Posted by Socratov

Bard 8/Virtouoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8 wants to have a word with you. All bard, with wizard casting

Virtuoso?

Originally Posted by Story

Paragnostic Apostle advances Bardic Knowledge by two levels for each level you take. RAW, taking a single level might be enough to double your Bardic Knowledge, but I doubt the DM will let that fly.

That sounds great! Where can I find it?

Also, since it sounds like any Bard prestige class can make it work, what are the best Bard prestige classes (grant new/good abilities and boosts Bard abilities like Music, Knowledge/Knack, etc.) out there?

**Tvtyrant** · 2012-12-06, 06:09 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Lestroisrois

Well, that will come in handy...

How long has that trick been common knowledge? I'm guessing I wasn't the first to cause its discovery after all?

Virtuoso?

That sounds great! Where can I find it?

Also, since it sounds like any Bard prestige class can make it work, what are the best Bard prestige classes (grant new/good abilities and boosts Bard abilities like Music, Knowledge/Knack, etc.) out there?

Actually I got it from you, I just love how many applications it has. It can be oh so broken.

**Getsugaru** · 2012-12-06, 08:44 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Tvtyrant

Actually I got it from you, I just love how many applications it has. It can be oh so broken.

Would you mind if I sig that?

**Tvtyrant** · 2012-12-06, 09:11 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Lestroisrois

Would you mind if I sig that?

Not at all! More quotes by me to fill the board!

**Story** · 2012-12-06, 09:12 PM (ISO 8601)

Paragnostic Apostle is in Complete Champion.

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