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Thread: Would this be tier 0?
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2014-06-25, 07:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Would this be tier 0?
Last edited by nedz; 2014-06-25 at 07:33 PM.
π = 4
Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.
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2014-06-25, 07:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Would this be tier 0?
Tier 1 is being able to solve any problem using class abilities. This means not only fighting, but such things as traveling huge distances overnight, building a palace or a fortress in a week, locating someone that protects himself from Scrying and Divinations using Mind Blank, saving an island city from Volcano Explosion, providing the food and drinks to a thousand-strong army in a desert, making a princess fall in love with an enemy ambassador, etc., etc..
I seriously doubt that a paladin can do any of those using only his class abilities and skills.Last edited by SinsI; 2014-06-25 at 08:04 PM.
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2014-06-25, 07:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Would this be tier 0?
Most people see a half orc and and think barbarian warrior. Me on the other hand? I think secondary trap handler and magic item tester. Also I'm not allowed to trick the next level one wizard into starting a fist fight with a house cat no matter how annoying he is.
Yes I know it's sarcasm. It's a joke. Pale green is for snarking
Thread wins: 2
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2014-06-25, 07:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-06-25, 08:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Would this be tier 0?
Most people see a half orc and and think barbarian warrior. Me on the other hand? I think secondary trap handler and magic item tester. Also I'm not allowed to trick the next level one wizard into starting a fist fight with a house cat no matter how annoying he is.
Yes I know it's sarcasm. It's a joke. Pale green is for snarking
Thread wins: 2
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2014-06-25, 08:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Would this be tier 0?
Doesn't matter - calling Pazuzu is not listed on Paladin's list of class abilities. Furthermore, Candle of Invocations is not his class ability either. It is abuse of external entities and items - any lucky commoner can do the same (with some Aid another and circumstance bonuses).
Last edited by SinsI; 2014-06-25 at 08:19 PM.
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2014-06-25, 08:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Would this be tier 0?
Not really. Pazazu can work for any class. Paladin was chosen because of a fluff line about how Pazazu particularly likes to see paladins fall, and because it was funny to make Pun-Pun a paladin.
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2014-06-25, 08:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Would this be tier 0?
Most people see a half orc and and think barbarian warrior. Me on the other hand? I think secondary trap handler and magic item tester. Also I'm not allowed to trick the next level one wizard into starting a fist fight with a house cat no matter how annoying he is.
Yes I know it's sarcasm. It's a joke. Pale green is for snarking
Thread wins: 2
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2014-06-25, 08:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Would this be tier 0?
Tiers are statistical measures, not specific measures. Any one particular build or small set of builds is irrelevant to the tier of a class.
The average over all possible Paladin builds at all possible levels might involve a handful of Pun-Puns, but so does most everything else - maybe at Lv3 instead of Lv1, or at Lv7, or whatever. So all those Pun-Puns cancel out of the overall evaluation, and even if they didn't they represent a small fraction of the build-space.
The thing that makes a Wizard Tier 1 is not that there exists a single optimal wizard build that can do anything, but that on average a random wizard build found in actual play will have options either at hand or easily available that allow the character to address pretty much any situation, often better than the specialists. The reason this happens is that for any wizard, access to any spell on a permanent basis is just a matter of a little time and a little gold - that effect tends to mean that even intentionally bad wizard builds are not very far away from their solutions (the exception being Int-dumped wizards, perhaps). Whereas if you intentionally choose bad feats and maneuvers for a Tome of Battle character, its harder to repair that deficiency.
So if we do want to discuss the Tier of Pun-Pun, we would have to define what build choices we're averaging over in some meaningful way. Perhaps a better example would be to ask what Tier a reptilian character with a Sarrukh follower would be - averaging over all other parameters of that combo (class choice, feat choice, etc), we'd find that the character can at any time contrive to obtain any ability, much like the situation with the Wizard except more extreme since in some readings of the rules this includes abilities that do not yet exist ('the DM must buy this character's player a soda every time an enemy takes a standard action' and other absurdities).
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2014-06-25, 08:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Would this be tier 0?
Last edited by SinsI; 2014-06-25 at 08:44 PM.
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2014-06-25, 08:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Would this be tier 0?
Yeah, again, paladin was chosen for Pun-Pun more because it was funny than anything else. From Fiendish Codex I:
Originally Posted by Fiendish Codex IOptimization Showcase in the Playground
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IC XL: Lycus Blackbeak
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IC XXXV: Parsifal the Fool
IC XXX: Jal Filius
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2014-06-26, 01:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Would this be tier 0?
Grey Elf gives a whopping +1 to spellcraft relative to any race without an INT penalty. It also provides another use of metamagic effect, and elven generalist pairs well with Incantatrix, which is why I chose it as the base race. Would you rather human, for a 50 spellcraft?
using Dragon Magazine material twice,giving up resources worth 8 points of initiative (a Feat plus familiar selection, which if you use the Dragon Magazine issue with moths could be a hummingbird),assuming availability of some masterwork Spellcraft tooland assuming that a Spellcraft check is the sort of thing your familiar can Aid Another with (Aid Another includes a DM arbitration clause, "In many cases, a character’s help won’t be beneficial...").Sure, you managed, but by using basically every resource but homebrew and variant rules, and at significant cost (the +8 initiative delta).Edit: For comparison, the Psycarnum Metamagic trick uses five feats (Wild Talent, Psycarnum Infusion, Midnight Metamagic, Improved Essentia Capacity, Easy Metamagic), one of which can come from race selection. Incantatrix costs one (Iron Will) plus a school of spells (more valuable than a feat) and the above optimization costs the equivalent of three (race, familiar, actual feat). Psycarnum Metamagic does come online a lot later, but it lets you make literally as many persistent spells as you like, so call that a wash.
2. Five feats is a lot.
3. You can buy Iron Will.
4. This comes online once you can put 4 essentia into a feat normally, that is, level 18.
And, drumroll...
5. It only affects one spell per day.SpoilerOriginally Posted by Midnight Metamagic
If you're going to say Incantatrix is lame, at least use Anima Mage as a comparison.Originally Posted by The Giant
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2014-06-26, 01:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Would this be tier 0?
Keep reading - it can be invested in once per day, but you can divide the essentia you put in among different spells. This doesn't actually matter though, because using Psycarnum Focus you never actually invest essentia - the soulmeld is merely treated as having been invested for a round, and then goes flat again.
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2014-06-26, 01:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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2014-06-26, 02:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Would this be tier 0?
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2014-06-26, 02:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Would this be tier 0?
Interesting thought, but the 1/day comes into play for more than allocating essentia:
Once per day, you can invest essentia into this feat and choose one or more spells that you know (and have prepared, if you prepare spells) to apply the effect of a metamagic feat that you know.Originally Posted by The Giant
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2014-06-26, 03:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Would this be tier 0?
I only used Pun Pun to counter Flickerdart's argument that Tier 1 was about characters who can break the game. I was slightly concerned that this argument might derail the thread - which it has.
π = 4
Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.
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2014-06-26, 08:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Would this be tier 0?
I will use this crowbar of words to move the railtracks back in place.
On a more serious note, I think the problem is "defining" tier 0. Since it seems most people, robots, tentacle monsters, and other races represented here on this forum are in agreement that tiers are class based on equal levels of optimization, and a tier 0 class does not currently exist, that seems to be the place to start.
I think a good starting place is took at classic tier 1 classes, druid, wizard, and cleric and explain how the proposed class can do anything more than these classes can to solve encounters. If it can't, it does not go above tier 1. If it can, we have to make a consensus on a breakpoint between tier 1 and tier 0 (or tier 1+ or whatever it will be called).4/10/2013 is this first day I used blue text. Isn't that soooo cool
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2014-06-26, 08:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Would this be tier 0?
Agreed.
It might be useful to revisit the definition of Tier 1 — from here
Originally Posted by JaronK's Tier list for classes.
Now there might be other criteria ?
I also mentioned characters who can nova and cast 10-20 spells a round. But is this a higher tier, or just more of the same ?
There are also a number of PrCs which people have rated as +1, or more, tiers. E.g. Incantatrix. Now these are powerful classes, but do they actually exceed T1 ?π = 4
Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.
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2014-06-26, 08:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Would this be tier 0?
I would say it all falls under tier 1. I think the breakpoint for 1 to 0 (or what have you) should be gaining tier 1 capabilities ahead of the normal curve (spell level * 2 - 1) for tier 1 classes. Maybe inbetween 1 and 0 is 1+ which is classes that are tier 1, but with more powerful capabilities such as unlimited casts per day (StP Erudite) or ways to adapt by changing prepped spells, or having spontaneous casting of an entire tier 1 list.
edit:
Additionally, prestigies could bring a class from tier 1 to tier 1+, such as incantitrix.Last edited by ddude987; 2014-06-26 at 08:54 AM.
4/10/2013 is this first day I used blue text. Isn't that soooo cool
Quirble muffins - with credit to Xervous and myself. Now with 50 cent royalties
I just learned about dawn of worlds and its so cool! Anyone who likes group worldbuilding, check it out!
Official member of the Rudisplorker guild, the new guy of the bunch. All hail Orcus!
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2014-06-26, 09:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Would this be tier 0?
I'd say ability to change game rules can make a class tier 0. I.e. if that class can remove limitations on Wish, or bonuses stacking, change class abilities and feats other characters or monsters have.
So if a class has Manipulate Form as class ability he will be tier 0.
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2014-06-26, 09:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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2014-06-26, 10:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Would this be tier 0?
There is no denying manipulate form as a class feature would make the class stronger than tier 1 classes but that isn't defining what makes a class tier 0. Defining the bare minimum requirement for a class to be "tier 0" as "having the manipulate form ability" feels to specific.
4/10/2013 is this first day I used blue text. Isn't that soooo cool
Quirble muffins - with credit to Xervous and myself. Now with 50 cent royalties
I just learned about dawn of worlds and its so cool! Anyone who likes group worldbuilding, check it out!
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2014-06-26, 11:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Would this be tier 0?
This seems like a good starting point. Tier 1 is about as powerful as you can get when working within the core RAI*. Tier 0, then, must break the fundamental assumptions of the rules somehow.
*Not Optimization as Intended, but using the basic rules of the game as they were written. That means obeying normal limits on how many skill ranks you have, on how bonuses interact, things like that.Hill Giant Games
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2014-06-26, 12:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-06-26, 12:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Would this be tier 0?
So classes that have those on their spell list are tier 0 by this definition?
4/10/2013 is this first day I used blue text. Isn't that soooo cool
Quirble muffins - with credit to Xervous and myself. Now with 50 cent royalties
I just learned about dawn of worlds and its so cool! Anyone who likes group worldbuilding, check it out!
Official member of the Rudisplorker guild, the new guy of the bunch. All hail Orcus!
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2014-06-26, 01:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Would this be tier 0?
If we're measuring specific builds, wouldn't it just be simpler to borrow the Test of Spite tiers?
It seems to me that a great deal of this thread is disagreement caused by people not distinguishing between the ToS tiers (which classify builds) and JaronK's tiers (which classify classes).
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2014-06-26, 01:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Would this be tier 0?
So pun pun is tier -2... as stated earlier
4/10/2013 is this first day I used blue text. Isn't that soooo cool
Quirble muffins - with credit to Xervous and myself. Now with 50 cent royalties
I just learned about dawn of worlds and its so cool! Anyone who likes group worldbuilding, check it out!
Official member of the Rudisplorker guild, the new guy of the bunch. All hail Orcus!
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2014-06-26, 01:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Would this be tier 0?
Those are examples of existing abilities that can modify rules and abilities in that way. But to make a class tier 0 you'd need some certain minimal amount of such abilities, so that those changes are relevant in most or all campaign situations. Chirurgery is great - but with no one having psionic powers besides you it is wasted. Same with Corpse Crafter - with no undead it is useless.
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2014-06-26, 04:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Would this be tier 0?
Here's a class for evaluation against the 'Tier 0' rubrick.
Reality-Shaper
Spoiler
Fort/Reflex/Will/BAB/Skill Points/HD: Irrelevant for this discussion
Class Features: Irrelevant for this discussion, except for...
Reality Shaping Class Feature Rule: A Reality-Shaper gets access to powers called 'Exclusions', 'Inclusions', and 'Revisions' which they can use to change the rules
of the game in specific ways. They gain access to new abilities as per a spellcasting progression (Wizard, for concreteness), with
new levels of these abilities coming online at Lv1,3,5,etc
Reality Shaping Ability Learning Rule: A Reality-Shaper gains three known abilities each level. Multiple copies of a single ability can be taken.
Reality Shaping Application Rule: A given Exclusion, Inclusion, or Revision can only be applied in a single fashion at a time. For example: If a Revision is used to change one rule, that same Revision cannot be used to change another, different rule until the first usage is turned off.
Reality Shaping Range: The range of a Reality-Shaper's effects is 20ft per level, beyond which reality goes back to normal.
Overlapping Auras: When two Reality-Shaper auras overlap in a way such that they are mutually contradictory, dominance is established with an opposed Charisma+Reality-Shaper level check. The winner's aura remains dominant in areas of overlap for 24 hours.
Exclusions: These can be toggled with a standard action and remain on or off in that state until the Reality-Shaper changes them. An Exclusion prevents some particular ability or rule from functioning within the Reality-Shaper's aura.
Spoiler: Example Exclusions
Discriminatory Rules (Reality-Shaper 1)
Pick a particular [Type] or [Sub-Type] of creature - all benefits from that type or sub-type are suppressed.
Mundanes Cannot Have Nice Things (Reality-Shaper 2)
Within the Reality-Shaper's aura, characters cannot make attacks that are not somehow supernatural, either via weapon enchantments (or having the attack itself magically buffed), or by virtue of being a spell.
Gravity is just the Fevered Dream of a Madman (Reality-Shaper 3)
Creatures do not fall.
Don't All Attack At Once (Reality-Shaper 4)
No one target can be attacked by more than one person in each round.
School Ban (Reality-Shaper 5)
All magic of a specified school cannot be cast or have any effect within the Reality-Shaper's aura. Existing spell effects of this school are temporarily suppressed.
Classism (Reality-Shaper 6)
You can completely shut down all powers of a single class and turn levels in that class into dead levels within your aura.
But I don't want to die at -10 (Reality-Shaper 8)
Creatures cannot die of hitpoint damage within the Reality-Shaper's field
Apotheosis (Reality-Shaper 9)
Any single specific piece of bolded rules-text can be disabled.
Inclusions: These can be toggled with a standard action and remain on or off in that state until the Reality-Shaper changes them. An Inclusion creates some new rule that anyone within the Reality-Shaper's aura can take advantage of.
Spoiler: Example Inclusions
Nose Goes (Reality-Shaper 1)
Pick a specific kind of roll and a specific out-of-character action. Anyone who performs the specified out-of-character action while making the specific kind of roll gains a bonus to the roll equal to your Reality-Shaper class level.
New Feat (Reality-Shaper 2)
Invent a new feat in collaboration with the DM. Anyone within your aura can take this feat. If they leave your aura, the feat is not lost but is suppressed until they return.
New Skill (Reality-Shaper 3)
Invent a new skill in collaboration with the DM. Anyone within your aura can take ranks of and use this skill. If they leave your aura, the ranks are not lost but are suppressed until they return.
New Class (Reality-Shaper 4)
Your aura makes a particular bit of homebrew into a reality. Design a new class with the DM - people within your aura can take this new class, which reverts to racial HD if they leave your aura (but repairs to the new class if they re-enter).
The Chain Rule (Reality-Shaper 5)
New Rule: Anyone within your aura gains a Reality-Shaper field 5ft in radius that counts as your aura.
Fighter Fix (Reality-Shaper 6)
You may insert a class feature from an existing class into another class at whatever level you choose.
New Physics (Reality-Shaper 7)
With the DM, create a new planar environment tag. Your aura has this environment tag.
Win Button (Reality-Shaper 9)
When one of the following conditions (choose one) holds, you have won the encounter and your immediate enemies are forced by the rules to step down and cease hindering you. This also applies in reverse, so be careful.
- There are twice as many allies remaining than enemies remaining.
- You and your allies are all clustered adjacent to eachother and are all at least 800ft away from each of your starting positions at the beginning of the encounter.
- 6 rounds pass from the start of combat.
- An ally character casts the same spell for three consecutive rounds (quickened/etc don't count as an extra round).
- Designate one character on your side as the 'leader' (the enemies will do the same). If the leader falls, its over.
Revisions: These can be toggled with a standard action and remain on or off in that state until the Reality-Shaper changes them. A Revision can alter a specific rules-term into a different rules-term in a particular rule.
Spoiler: Example Revisions
Rock Paper Scissors Spock (Reality-Shaper 1)
You can replace the type of save of an effect with a different type of save.
Interchangeable Parts (Reality-Shaper 1)
You can replace a stat used by or referred to by an ability with a different stat.
Fudging the Numbers (Reality-Shaper 2)
Choose any number that appears in a rule and increase or decrease it by 1.
Misspell (Reality-Shaper 2)
You can change one letter of one rule. The resultant rule must be composed of correctly
spelled words and grammatically correct structures in English.
Damage Mastery (Reality-Shaper 3)
You can replace one damage type with another in any rule (for DR, resistances, immunities, damage dealt, etc).
A matter of units (Reality-Shaper 3)
You can change the units on a measurement in a single rule. The old and new units
must belong to the allowed list. The allowed units are:
Distance: inches, feet, meters
Long Distance: furlongs (1/8 mile), miles, leagues (3.4 miles)
Short Times: seconds, rounds, minutes
Long Times: hours, days, weeks
Weights: ounces (1/16th of a pound), lbs, kg (2.2lbs)
Currency: sp, gp, pp
Re-requisite (Reality-Shaper 4)
You can change one prerequisite to a feat or class to whatever you like. Those who do not qualify for the new rules-text lose access to those abilities.
Action Stock Market (Reality-Shaper 5)
You can change the type of activation action for an ability either up or down one category:
Immediate <-> Swift <-> Move <-> Standard <-> Full Round
If you take this ability multiple times, they can stack.
REDACTED (Reality-Shaper 6)
Exclude a single word from any rule.
Character Rewrite (Reality-Shaper 8)
Pick one character - while in your aura, you can choose to alter one of:
- Their narrative function (hero, villain, etc)
- Their build (broad strokes - swap out all Wizard levels for Fighter)
- Their relationships with other NPCs (Luke, I am your father [now]!)
So, Tier 0?