Nerfed White Ravens Tactics?

[titans4ever]

I am running a crusader in a campaign and just reached level 5. As I am picking my maneuver (I wanted White Raven Tactics), he declares that if I take WRT he is going to alter it.

His version:
I can change someone's initiative to one behind me but they cannot act again.

Based on his interpretation of WRT mechanics of changing someone's initiative, I could continuously delay my turn to after whoever I use WRT on to create a loop. Thus creating a loop where I use WRT and then delay to after them, he goes, I delay, he goes, I delay, he goes.... He won't allow that part even if I promise not to delay. I can still see the advantage of pulling someone to go right behind me but not sure if it is worth it over another maneuver? It still is one of the first maneuvers that is not a strike that the crusader can take.

Does this nerf the maneuver so much it is not worth taking?

[Callin]

Skip it. Totally not worth it to take unless the guy you switch can act again.

[Artillery]

White Raven Tactics isn't a big deal on crusaders anyways due to the random recovery method. Is he nerfing the other White Raven maneuvers that let people attack out of initiative?

WRT that just changes initiative is nothing special at all. Its a way to give a party buffer/BFC/etc an extra round of prep or to get them farther forward in the init so they can catch opponents flat footed.

Completely removing a full round of action from a maneuver, if they made it so it was only a standard action it would still be workable.

[OldTrees1]

So White Raven Tactics now expends your swift action in order to force an ally to delay their turn next round until after your initiative?

It should never cost actions to force an ally to do something they could already do for free.

However normal WRT is fine if restricted to once per ally per encounter.

[Feint's End]

I am running a crusader in a campaign and just reached level 5. As I am picking my maneuver (I wanted White Raven Tactics), he declares that if I take WRT he is going to alter it.

His version:
I can change someone's initiative to one behind me but they cannot act again.

Based on his interpretation of WRT mechanics of changing someone's initiative, I could continuously delay my turn to after whoever I use WRT on to create a loop. Thus creating a loop where I use WRT and then delay to after them, he goes, I delay, he goes, I delay, he goes.... He won't allow that part even if I promise not to delay. I can still see the advantage of pulling someone to go right behind me but not sure if it is worth it over another maneuver? It still is one of the first maneuvers that is not a strike that the crusader can take.

Does this nerf the maneuver so much it is not worth taking?

Your Dm does know that's not possible? Especially not on a Crusader (also doesn't work on Warblades btw)

it's not really possible to reliably recover a maneuver as a Crusader. Sure it is pretty good if every few rounds you grant one ally an extra turn but nothing overpowered .... if at all I'd say that makes Crusaders decent supporters (not just punch and small healing).

I'd talk to him again and make sure he understood how WRT works because what he said (And the reason he banned it) doesn't work and is not possible.

Even a Warblade can just do it every two rounds (assuming recovering maneuvers every two rounds) and is hardly overpowered. A Crusader? If you are really lucky you can do it twice in a row but most likely just once every 3 rounds or so (and that also just if you took Extra Granted Maneuver ... you should take that feat regardless btw).

Tbh honest .. the ONLY reason to ban WRT is if your player starts using it to grant himself extra turns cause that was clearly not intended but other than that it's actually a really well thought through ability and there is literally no reason to ban it. Can it be abused? Sure, but so you can almost every class/ featcombination. And the way you want to use WRT is nothing close to broken.

You might want to point your Dm to this thread. I'd be very happy to helpt you convince him otherwise and tell him that there is no real reason to ban WRT the way you intend to use it.

[titans4ever]

The sad thing is I did not even come up with this scenario where it is broken. I assumed it only works once or was an instantaneous effect, not a continuous one like he thinks.

I like the maneuver because it give the crusader a chance to really start to be a battlefield general/leader by helping others in battle and is only the second choice of a maneuver that is not a strike.

I really like the maneuvers like tactical strike and WRT, that allow other players to do something out of turn to help press or create an advantage. I have already used tactical strike several times to help us move into flanking or pinning a creature against a wall.

[Chronos]

Even if you could reliably refresh it every turn, his interpretation still wouldn't work. You need to spend a swift action to use it, and you can only take swift actions during your turn. Either you're delaying, in which case it's not your turn yet and you can't take the swift action, or you're acting, in which case it's your turn and it's too late to delay.

You can get an infinite loop out of WRT, but you have to be able to reliably refresh it every time, and you also need to have another character who can do so. In this case, A refreshes and takes a full-round action (or a standard and a move), then uses WRT on B, then B refreshes, takes a full-round action, and uses WRT on A, and so on.

EDIT: If your DM is still worried about it, a reasonable houserule would be that it can only work once on any given ally each combat. This will stop all forms of loops with it, but will still leave it useful and relevant for non-abusive uses.

[Equinox]

The nerf is beautiful in its simplicity. "This maneuver does nothing". That's one misguided DM right there ...

[titans4ever]

The problem comes in that there is no duration listed for this maneuver. Just another simple thing missing from this book that makes things more complicated than need be. I love the book and the classes that it created but there are so many tiny mistake and editing errors in the book it can be frustrating.

[Saidoro]

Take it. Use it on your enemies. No where is it stated that an enemy can't also be an ally.(In fact, I don't think the terms are ever defined at all.)

[tyckspoon]

The problem comes in that there is no duration listed for this maneuver. Just another simple thing missing from this book that makes things more complicated than need be. I love the book and the classes that it created but there are so many tiny mistake and editing errors in the book it can be frustrating.

Why would it need a duration? I don't really see how that would 'fix' the maneuver.

Edit: ..oh. You're reading it as a continuous modifier to the target's initiative instead of a one-and-done effect. That's.. novel.

[lsfreak]

Take it. Use it on your enemies. No where is it stated that an enemy can't also be an ally.(In fact, I don't think the terms are ever defined at all.)

You're right, they're not. You can spontaneously declare allies and enemies as one another for different effects, such as excluding allies from beneficial AoE spells or secretly helping out enemies by declaring them allies for the spell. I don't think it usually matters, because most effects still have Will (harmless) or something that allow enemies to resist an effect if they want, and because most beneficial effects are, you know, actually beneficial, not worse-than-useless via DM nerfs.

[Karnith]

In fact, I don't think the terms are ever defined at all.

You're right, they're not.

The terms "ally" and "enemy" are actually defined, albeit in pretty much the least helpful way possible. An ally is defined as:

A creature friendly to you. In most cases, references to "allies" include yourself.

And an enemy is defined as:

A creature unfriendly to you.

[JaronK]

Well, that's kinda helpful. Diplomacy uses those same terms, at least. Though I should imagine ally should be friendly or better, since otherwise helpful people aren't friendly and thus not allies.

JaronK

[tyckspoon]

Well, that's kinda helpful. Diplomacy uses those same terms, at least. Though I should imagine ally should be friendly or better, since otherwise helpful people aren't friendly and thus not allies.

JaronK

And conversely Hostile creatures, those that have a negative enough opinion of you to put themselves at physical risk to attack you.. are not enemies. Those are most likely another instance of a writer not paying attention to whether or not something existed as an in-game term of art rather than a deliberate call to the Diplomacy terms.

[Firechanter]

I can change someone's initiative to one behind me but they cannot act again.

That is entirely idiotic. You might want to point out to your DM the discussion in this thread, and that with this version it would be better to use WRT on your _enemies_ rather than your fellow party members, and that can hardly be the point of a boost.

Propose the following version instead:

WRT as written, but you can't use it on yourself, and anyone can only benefit from it once per round.

FYI, the point where WRT without these limitations becomes really broken is when you have one or two Ruby Knight Vindicators in the party, who keep WRTing themselves / each other with Divine Recovery and Divine Impetus, and take as many turns as their Turn Undead attempts will last.

[Chronos]

It's even worse with Idiot Crusaders, but that's of debatable legality and undebatable cheese.

[Scow2]

It's even worse with Idiot Crusaders, but that's of debatable legality and undebatable cheese.

Okay... what's an Idiot Crusader? I am interested now.

[tyckspoon]

Okay... what's an Idiot Crusader? I am interested now.

A Crusader whose Maneuvers Known/Readied count is equal to or lower than his Maneuvers Granted number, causing him to get all of his Crusader maneuvers refreshed every turn.

[Artillery]

Okay... what's an Idiot Crusader? I am interested now.

Idiot Crusader is a build that gets more maneuvers ready than known. It refreshes all its maneuvers as a free action each turn.

[Callin]

LOL Never knew there was a name for the way I play Crusaders lol.

[Invader]

White Raven Tactics isn't aEasilyeal on crusaders anyways due to the random recovery method. Is he nerfing the other White Raven maneuvers that let people attack out of initiative?

WRT that just changes initiative is nothing special at all. Its a way to give a party buffer/BFC/etc an extra round of prep or to get them farther forward in the init so they can catch opponents flat footed.

Completely removing a full round of action from a maneuver, if they made it so it was only a standard action it would still be workable.

You're downplaying the effectiveness quite a bit. Easily giving a teammate a free full round action every couple rounds for free is a pretty huge bonus.

[limejuicepowder]

You're downplaying the effectiveness quite a bit. Easily giving a teammate a free full round action every couple rounds for free is a pretty huge bonus.

Yeah, it's good. The only surprise is that it's not a spell, since...y'know.

Still though, the point remains that the DM is nerfing it based on an exploit that doesn't actually work, implying that he'd be OK with the regular (or real) version of it.

[Invader]

Yeah, it's good. The only surprise is that it's not a spell, since...y'know.

Still though, the point remains that the DM is nerfing it based on an exploit that doesn't actually work, implying that he'd be OK with the regular (or real) version of it.

Oh I agree the nerf is ridiculous. That being said it could be nerfed reasonably and still be useful.

[Telok]

This actually opens up an amusing archtype for you, the bumbling henchman/turncoat.

Take the maneuver.
Consult the other players but not the GM, you will be joining enemy organizations secretly, for the purpose of betraying the party and you will bungle the important fights so that the PCs win.
In important boss-style fights announce your betrayal in a five minute monologue (talking is a free action) where you list every imagined slight and none of the real ones.
Use White Raven Tactics on your new allies to deny them actions.
Move in front of charging monsters, protect enemy spellcasters by grabbing them and throwing them into closets, horrify and intimidate the other PCs by detailing your boss's secret plan (be sure to include the time table and location just to show them how hopeless it is to resist).
Use White Raven Tactics on your boss to deny him actions.
When the PCs win you get to recognize the error of your ways and beg for forgiveness.
Start all over again the next day.

As a bonus you should be lousy at stealth and perception. This allows the other PCs to follow you to secret meetings and eavesdrop on you.

[Prime32]

There's a nerf in the unofficial errata, if it interests you.

[Feint's End]

This actually opens up an amusing archtype for you, the bumbling henchman/turncoat.

Take the maneuver.
Consult the other players but not the GM, you will be joining enemy organizations secretly, for the purpose of betraying the party and you will bungle the important fights so that the PCs win.
In important boss-style fights announce your betrayal in a five minute monologue (talking is a free action) where you list every imagined slight and none of the real ones.
Use White Raven Tactics on your new allies to deny them actions.
Move in front of charging monsters, protect enemy spellcasters by grabbing them and throwing them into closets, horrify and intimidate the other PCs by detailing your boss's secret plan (be sure to include the time table and location just to show them how hopeless it is to resist).
Use White Raven Tactics on your boss to deny him actions.
When the PCs win you get to recognize the error of your ways and beg for forgiveness.
Start all over again the next day.

As a bonus you should be lousy at stealth and perception. This allows the other PCs to follow you to secret meetings and eavesdrop on you.

Now this is awesome Mr Telok! Just one thing that bothers me .... speaking is just a free action if you speak 1 sentence. 2 are already a move action and 3 IIRC are a fullround action.

[TuggyNE]

Now this is awesome Mr Telok! Just one thing that bothers me .... speaking is just a free action if you speak 1 sentence. 2 are already a move action and 3 IIRC are a fullround action.

Hmm. Where's that stated? Sounds like a half-decent houserule, but not sure if it's RAW.

[Feint's End]

Hmm. Where's that stated? Sounds like a half-decent houserule, but not sure if it's RAW.

ah right .... got it a bit wrong (haven't looked at it for some time), but there is a statement in PHB regarding speaking in combat

Speak
In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when
it isn’t your turn. Some DMs may rule that a character can only
speak on his turn, or that a character can’t speak while flat-footed
(and thus can’t warn allies of a surprise threat until he has a chance
to act). Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the
limit of a free action; to communicate more information than that,
your DM may require that you take a move action or even a fullround
action.

so it's up to the Dm but I'd say that speaking more than about 10-15 words goes above a free action.

[Coidzor]

This actually opens up an amusing archtype for you, the bumbling henchman/turncoat.

Take the maneuver.
Consult the other players but not the GM, you will be joining enemy organizations secretly, for the purpose of betraying the party and you will bungle the important fights so that the PCs win.
In important boss-style fights announce your betrayal in a five minute monologue (talking is a free action) where you list every imagined slight and none of the real ones.
Use White Raven Tactics on your new allies to deny them actions.
Move in front of charging monsters, protect enemy spellcasters by grabbing them and throwing them into closets, horrify and intimidate the other PCs by detailing your boss's secret plan (be sure to include the time table and location just to show them how hopeless it is to resist).
Use White Raven Tactics on your boss to deny him actions.
When the PCs win you get to recognize the error of your ways and beg for forgiveness.
Start all over again the next day.

As a bonus you should be lousy at stealth and perception. This allows the other PCs to follow you to secret meetings and eavesdrop on you.

Intriguing.

Oh I agree the nerf is ridiculous. That being said it could be nerfed reasonably and still be useful.

IIRC, the usual nerf is that one can't WRT one's self and that if one receives WRT, then one can't use that extra ability to act to use WRT on the creature that used WRT on one's self.

There's a nerf in the unofficial errata, if it interests you.

I have to log in to read the errata?

ah right .... got it a bit wrong (haven't looked at it for some time), but there is a statement in PHB regarding speaking in combat

so it's up to the Dm but I'd say that speaking more than about 10-15 words goes above a free action.

At least it's not as kooky as in Pathfinder where they've suggested that it's a reasonable thing to rule that you can either use your full iterative attacks with a bow OR speak a few words to your party members and have one less attack on your full attack.