An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower

[tiornys]

Only complaint is the guest star DM's DMPC being dull, and the DMPC's bits highly accentuating upon the stylistic differences in the DMs.

Spoiler: Book the last!

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The former will probably get better, but only by exacerbating the latter.

[Sivarias]

Spoiler: Book the Last: The Beginning of the End!

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Talmanes pretty much saves the day in Caemlyn, or at least as much of the day as he can out numbered and sans-Mat. Due to being almost a main character, he earns himself the title of Dredbane, and gets his doomed life saved by Nynaeve.

Slayer gets some horrifying background revealed, and is tasked with sniping Rand. Kinda expected something like this one sooner tbh.

M'Hael is officially a forsaken now. Wasn't quite expecting this, but then I should've put Hardcore Darkfriend(TM) and super mage together better. Explains where the dream spike at the dark tower came from.

Elayne finds out about Caemlyn's fall and starts planning a counterattack. Rand in a clever bit of note writing convinces her to stay by telling her to run off to Caemlyn and don't worry about what he has planned.

Androl is still dull, and has managed to both be bonded and to counter bond at the same time. I've been expecting this to be a thing since it was first that shown Asha'man could bond Aes Sedai. The scientific process is not well used in this age. Seems the Shadow has been forcefully turning the Black Tower and any nearby Aes Sedai evil with Myrddraals & Dark Mages, yikes.

Only complaint is the guest star DM's DMPC being dull, and the DMPC's bits highly accentuating upon the stylistic differences in the DMs.

Spoiler: DMPC

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He gets less boring, but when you get to the resolution of the Black Tower plotline he starts getting more irritating. A lot of the fandom felt robbed frankly. I did as well once I got over the "Sasuke is SO COOL" *swoon* factor.

Sweet! I did the spoiler right on mobile!

[Wookieetank]

Spoiler: Book the last!

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The former will probably get better, but only by exacerbating the latter.

Spoiler: DMPC

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He gets less boring, but when you get to the resolution of the Black Tower plotline he starts getting more irritating. A lot of the fandom felt robbed frankly. I did as well once I got over the "Sasuke is SO COOL" *swoon* factor.

Sweet! I did the spoiler right on mobile!

Spoiler: The Character who should not be named.

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I was ok with Itrulade being the DMPC for Sanderson and now that I've met Androl I'm wishing oh so very much that he was. He was interesting and things of import were happening around him. I was had pressed to start chapter 2 of book the last when I saw it was following Androl.

Its feeling a lot like Emo Perrin all over again with the pacing and with "I'm so sad that I can't channel well, and why is everyone looking up to me" going on.

[Anteros]

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'Time doesn't flow backwards' isn't some crazy leap of logic, though. It's what you assume until proven otherwise.

And I remember the WOT FAQ debunking the Olver/Cain theory right from the start. It wasn't like no-one else noticed the problems with the theory.

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Time doesn't flow at different rates for different people in the real world just because they happen to be in different rooms either, but it does in tel'aran'rhiod. There was no reason to automatically assume real world rules applied in that particular instance when they explicitly did not apply in other instances of time keeping.

Spoiler: On the Mary Sue

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Androl is awful, and it's honestly insulting that Sanderson thought it was an acceptable way to end the series. 15 books, and he thinks that we want the finale to be about his Mary Sue self insert instead of the protagonists of the series? It's just a baffling decision, and I have no idea how it made it past editing. As far as I'm concerned he's a hack, and I'll never buy one of his books again.

[Aeson]

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Time doesn't flow at different rates for different people in the real world just because they happen to be in different rooms either, but it does in tel'aran'rhiod. There was no reason to automatically assume real world rules applied in that particular instance when they explicitly did not apply in other instances of time keeping.

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Not in arbitrarily-different rooms, perhaps, but it has been experimentally demonstrated that the rate at which time flows has dependencies upon velocity and gravitational potential energy.

Also, I agree with Saph - 'time flows forwards' is the default assumption unless you are given good reason to believe otherwise, and so far as I can recall the Olver/Gaidal Cain hypothesis is the only 'evidence' in the Wheel of Time series for time not flowing strictly forwards in tel'aran'rhiod.

[Gnoman]

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Not in arbitrarily-different rooms, perhaps, but it has been experimentally demonstrated that the rate at which time flows has dependencies upon velocity and gravitational potential energy.

Also, I agree with Saph - 'time flows forwards' is the default assumption unless you are given good reason to believe otherwise, and so far as I can recall the Olver/Gaidal Cain hypothesis is the only 'evidence' in the Wheel of Time series for time not flowing strictly forwards in tel'aran'rhiod.

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It is also pretty explicit that such a thing hasn't happened before. As soon as Birgitte was unable to find Gaidal in TAR, she knew he'd been reborn. She wouldn't have been nearly so certain if he'd ever been active in both life and "unlife" at the same time. Since those bound to the Horn seem to have a detailed memory of all their lives when they're not alive, I find that pretty convincing.
I understand the appeal of the theory, but I'm not convinced it was ever intended.

[Seerow]

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It is also pretty explicit that such a thing hasn't happened before. As soon as Birgitte was unable to find Gaidal in TAR, she knew he'd been reborn. She wouldn't have been nearly so certain if he'd ever been active in both life and "unlife" at the same time. Since those bound to the Horn seem to have a detailed memory of all their lives when they're not alive, I find that pretty convincing.
I understand the appeal of the theory, but I'm not convinced it was ever intended.

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My personal take on the theory was that a spirit bound to the horn wasn't necessarily born at the same instant as when the soul leaves TAR. I figured it happened around the same time the child in question was old enough to start forming long term memories.

It's unclear how old Olver was at the time Gaidal was reborn, but it is feasible he was just around 5-6 years old. In theory this could mean birgittes body had been reborn by the end of the series, but her soul hadn't yet had a reason to go to it.

[Anteros]

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Not in arbitrarily-different rooms, perhaps, but it has been experimentally demonstrated that the rate at which time flows has dependencies upon velocity and gravitational potential energy.

Also, I agree with Saph - 'time flows forwards' is the default assumption unless you are given good reason to believe otherwise, and so far as I can recall the Olver/Gaidal Cain hypothesis is the only 'evidence' in the Wheel of Time series for time not flowing strictly forwards in tel'aran'rhiod.

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None of that has anything to do with how time in Jordan's dream world works and you know it.

[Saph]

Spoiler: Identities

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Put it another way - what evidence is there FOR Olver being Gaidal Cain?

Well, he's ugly, and he's a child, and he's a character in the books. That's about it. Except that the 'child' argument doesn't work since he's the wrong age. So that leaves 'he's ugly and he's a character in the books'. Not a very strong case.

Meanwhile, evidence against Olver being Gaidal:

• he's the wrong age so time would have to be flowing backwards which causes all kinds of weird causality problems
• he doesn't really display any of Gaidal Cain's notable traits aside from being ugly
• the author specifically said that Olver isn't Gaidal Cain, here:

Is Olver Gaidal Cain?

RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.

He's too old.

RJ: Yes. Time in Tel'aran'rhiod and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in Tel'aran'rhiod, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.

Is the difference in time constant?

RJ: No. It's fairly random. Sometimes fast, sometimes slow, sometimes the same as real time.

It's different for different people, then?

RJ: Yes. Unless they're together in Tel'aran'rhiod. Then the same amount of time passes for them obviously.

[Anteros]

Spoiler: Identities

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Put it another way - what evidence is there FOR Olver being Gaidal Cain?

Well, he's ugly, and he's a child, and he's a character in the books. That's about it. Except that the 'child' argument doesn't work since he's the wrong age. So that leaves 'he's ugly and he's a character in the books'. Not a very strong case.

Meanwhile, evidence against Olver being Gaidal:

• he's the wrong age so time would have to be flowing backwards which causes all kinds of weird causality problems
• he doesn't really display any of Gaidal Cain's notable traits aside from being ugly
• the author specifically said that Olver isn't Gaidal Cain, here:

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Obviously no one is still arguing that he was Cain after seeing Jordan said he wasn't. I'm specifically talking about the theories that came before.

As for evidence towards. He's ugly with specific repeated mention towards his nose like Cain, and the fact that he'll be short like Cain. He's obviously being raised to be a hero. He shows up at about the right time, or at least close enough to handwave it by saying that the wheel spinning people out is imprecise.

There's also a line somewhere where Birgitte says that one can be spun out first and yet end up younger than the other. I forget exactly where, and finding it in this series would be a daunting task. There's yet another quote from Birgitte in Fires of Heaven that says

Gaidal is out there, somewhere, an infant, or even a young boy

which is a pretty odd thing for her to say if it's impossible for him to be a young boy. She knows how much time has passed in the real world since he disappeared from the dream, because she regularly interacts with the wonder girls. Despite knowing it's only been a week or two, she thinks he can be anything from a young boy to an infant? For all Jordan says time can't run backwards, Birgitte apparently thinks it can. At least at this point in the series before the theory got popular and Jordan changed his mind about it (personal opinion). We're also told repeatedly over the course of the books that Birgitte is seeking out young ugly boys and has a soft spot for them.

[solidork]

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She would have a soft spot for ugly young boys no matter what though, even if she had already found Cain.

I never thought Olver was Cain, for the same reasons people have mentioned. The timing is wrong, as far as I am concerned.

[Wookieetank]

Spoiler: On the Mary Sue

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Androl is awful, and it's honestly insulting that Sanderson thought it was an acceptable way to end the series. 15 books, and he thinks that we want the finale to be about his Mary Sue self insert instead of the protagonists of the series? It's just a baffling decision, and I have no idea how it made it past editing. As far as I'm concerned he's a hack, and I'll never buy one of his books again.

Spoiler: He who has been renamed by me

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My biggest beef at this point with the Idrool chapters (outside of him being dull & pointless), is how Sanderson is grasping at things to put on the page to the point where he's repeating the Exact. Same. Sentance. more than once on a page. Barely even in separate paragraphs! Its kinda insulting to think people wouldn't notice this in a series that is know for its attention to details and intricate descriptions.

[Saph]

Spoiler: Drool

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I think Andrill or whatever his name is shows up the downsides of Sanderson's writing style. He's really good at working within a system, whether his own or someone else's, so he's pretty good with the WoT world as a whole. But he's nowhere near as good as Jordan at creating interesting characters, so when he tries to put his own guy in next to the extensively developed characters that Jordan already created, it's a bit painful to watch.

[lord_khaine]

Spoiler: Last 3 books

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My main annoyance with him is that he more or less stole the role seemingly meant for Logain (one of my own favorite sidecharacters). But its a minor price to pay for getting the serie finished with a bang instead of a whimper. I do think the last 3 books Sanderson wrote is superior to the last 3 Jordan wrote.

And all the same i think its a common misconception that Anderson can only manage systems. The 3 prime characters in his own main series, the Stormlight Archive, are each equal to the best Jordan has made.

[Wookieetank]

Spoiler: Last 3 books

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My main annoyance with him is that he more or less stole the role seemingly meant for Logain (one of my own favorite sidecharacters). But its a minor price to pay for getting the serie finished with a bang instead of a whimper. I do think the last 3 books Sanderson wrote is superior to the last 3 Jordan wrote.

And all the same i think its a common misconception that Anderson can only manage systems. The 3 prime characters in his own main series, the Stormlight Archive, are each equal to the best Jordan has made.

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I will agree that the pacing is much better these past three books. When my biggest complaints are about the DMPC, but not how Sanderson is handling pre-existing characters, he's doing quite a bit right overall.

[lord_khaine]

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It wasnt you i were replying to in regard to Sandersons ability to write characters

[Ibrinar]

Spoiler: Drool

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I think Andrill or whatever his name is shows up the downsides of Sanderson's writing style. He's really good at working within a system, whether his own or someone else's, so he's pretty good with the WoT world as a whole. But he's nowhere near as good as Jordan at creating interesting characters, so when he tries to put his own guy in next to the extensively developed characters that Jordan already created, it's a bit painful to watch.

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Can't say I agree. I find the Stormlight Archive characters more interesting than Jordans wheel of time characters on average.

[Anteros]

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I've not read Sanderson's newer work, but from what I remember of his older work's protagonists Lightsong, Raoden, and Kelsier are all basically the same person. Slightly different skills and abilities, but the personalities don't vary. He basically wrote Mat the same way as these 3 too.

[Douglas]

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Androl as a character serves a few purposes: viewpoint in the Black Tower plot line, one character for Sanderson to call his own so he's not completely writing someone else's characters, and a vehicle for Sanderson doing the "I have one trick, how creative can I get with it?" thing he likes to do with magic. None of that really requires extensive character development, and giving him extensive character development anyway would have taken a lot of extra time away from everybody else. I don't get the impression that the people complaining about him would have approved of that.

Also, a lot of the complaints I've seen about him seem to me to be blowing things waaaaaaaaay out of proportion. Does he do some important things? Yes. Does he take over the series and personally win the Last Battle? Not even close.

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I've not read Sanderson's newer work, but from what I remember of his older work's protagonists Lightsong, Raoden, and Kelsier are all basically the same person. Slightly different skills and abilities, but the personalities don't vary. He basically wrote Mat the same way as these 3 too.

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I won't argue about those, but in the Stormlight Archive I think Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Jasnah, Adolin, Taravangian, Szeth, and quite a few others have definitely distinct personalities.

[An Enemy Spy]

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I wonder what all these spoilers are about.

[tonberrian]

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I wonder what all these spoilers are about.

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About things in the Wheel of Time.

[Douglas]

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I wonder what all these spoilers are about.

Late series stuff. Opinions about a character that Brandon Sanderson added* when he took over the series, among other things.

* Technically, the character did appear earlier and was named by Jordan, but had no meaningful individual role or characterization before The Gathering Storm.

[tonberrian]

Late series stuff. Opinions about a character that Brandon Sanderson added* when he took over the series, among other things.

* Technically, the character did appear earlier and was named by Jordan, but had no meaningful individual role or characterization before The Gathering Storm.

That's a spoiler!

[An Enemy Spy]

That's a spoiler!

I mean, in the sense that I now know that there will be at least one new character introduced, but I'd always assumed something like that would happen.

[tonberrian]

I mean, in the sense that I now know that there will be at least one new character introduced, but I'd always assumed something like that would happen.

I'm spoiler police tho.

Wee-woo!

[Anteros]

I mean, in the sense that I now know that there will be at least one new character introduced, but I'd always assumed something like that would happen.

Nope. You've already met everyone you're going to meet. The next 12 books are just a recap of the first 3 from Bela's point of view. Pretty groundbreaking stuff really.

[Douglas]

I'm spoiler police tho.

Wee-woo!

Oh come on, I didn't even mention how she's the first female ta'veren, married Rand (with his previous love interest happily being the maid of honor), invented the bi-directional Warder bond (which only the two of them ever used, of course), destroyed the Seanchan empire singlehandedly, blew the Horn of Valere, won Tarmon Gai'don by summoning the fires of Dragonmount, and led the linked circle of channelers (just her and Rand) that sealed the Dark One's prison back up! It hardly counts as a spoiler without any of that.

[lord_khaine]

I wonder what all these spoilers are about.

Also about Brandon's ability to write characters. I do guess thats a topic we dont need to spoiler. The argument has been made that the later books does contain more memorable characters with more interesting development than we have seen in the WoT. I do think Shallan stands out in the Stormlight archive when it comes to growth and development.

And i do think its an unfair accusation that there are simularities between characters in different series. In each seperate world/book i think there is a generally broad range of people.

[Traab]

Also about Brandon's ability to write characters. I do guess thats a topic we dont need to spoiler. The argument has been made that the later books does contain more memorable characters with more interesting development than we have seen in the WoT. I do think Shallan stands out in the Stormlight archive when it comes to growth and development.

And i do think its an unfair accusation that there are simularities between characters in different series. In each seperate world/book i think there is a generally broad range of people.

True, its like claiming that eddings writes the same characters over and over again because silk from the belgariad and talon from the elenium are both sneaky smooth talking thieves. Now there is plenty to complain about his work, but basically punching his genre convention card about party makeups doesnt make them the same person.

[Anteros]

Also about Brandon's ability to write characters. I do guess thats a topic we dont need to spoiler. The argument has been made that the later books does contain more memorable characters with more interesting development than we have seen in the WoT. I do think Shallan stands out in the Stormlight archive when it comes to growth and development.

And i do think its an unfair accusation that there are simularities between characters in different series. In each seperate world/book i think there is a generally broad range of people.

You could make that argument, but I can't see myself ever agreeing with it. Jordan writes real people, places you inside their head, and lets you watch as they naturally grow as a person. Even the unlikable ones feel like real people with real motivations.

Sanderson writes shallow tropes with quirky personalities that don't grow very realistically at all. It can be entertaining, but once you realize that most of his characters are the same person it quickly loses its charm. At least he did this in his earlier books. He might have evolved as a writer since I've read his work, but it would have to be a ridiculous improvement before you could even compare his characters to Jordan. He's basically this generation's Salvatore. He writes shallow pulpy fantasy that's entertaining enough, but the only truly interesting bits are the settings themselves.

True, its like claiming that eddings writes the same characters over and over again because silk from the belgariad and talon from the elenium are both sneaky smooth talking thieves. Now there is plenty to complain about his work, but basically punching his genre convention card about party makeups doesnt make them the same person.

I'm not very familiar with these characters but given Eddings' reputation I'm going to bet that there's a lot more to both of them than the fact that they're sneaky smooth talking thieves. I'm betting they wouldn't react the exact same to every possible situation, and that their humor and dialogue reads differently despite being smooth talkers. This wouldn't be the case if Sanderson wrote them.

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Look at any of the big 3 protagonists of the WoT and tell me with a straight face that it's they're the same person they were before Sanderson took over. It's not even close. He completely changed every single main character's personality. It's especially egregious with Mat. At least the other two characters had story reasons explaining why they were suddenly acting extremely differently.

I'm fully aware that all of this is personal opinion.