Finally the four words! (spoiler)

[B. Dandelion]

I lack the proper means to take revenge on these people, but the fact that the comic is making them all sweat and choke all on their own pleases me. Greatly.

Not to rain on your superiority parade, but I don't have any emotional involvement in this matter save that I think it's kind of lame. Under normal circumstances the title would make me think the matter was settled, which is good even if for no other reason than it'll cut down on the more useless debates (to make room for new and improved useless debates).

But that was my understanding of the specific point Kaytara had been attempting to make, where Kish was asking "are you saying... [something else entirely]?"

Plus, it seems valid. It DOES draw attention to itself without having any apparent narrative value. It's there to... give the Giant an excuse to put in an incredibly dated reference that's not even used as a joke? I know that not EVERYTHING has to be in the comic for a specifically delineated purpose, but this one is from way out in left field, and its total lack of necessary function is in itself its most prominent defining trait! We notice it mostly because we're noticing how there's no reason for it.

[CrimsonAngel]

Such hopeless optimism. I have only one question.

Were you not around in the "Belkar is Chaotic Neutral, really!" days, or have you blocked them out?

*rocks back and forth.*

[jpnuar1]

I'm not fully convinced they're the four words (his question was "how" he would gain arcane power, not when or why, and the words weren't actually the means, just the justification), but will suggest a happy medium for those who are still doubtful:

Until the comic reveals a point where V actually says a different 4 words leading to a great(er) or more permanent increase in arcane power, just treat this as the fulfillment. Everything fits.

Also even though I'm in the "strangle me please" camp I also definitely think that if this situation isn't it, it will be coming VERY soon. If it doesn't, these words will be it.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

If no other words usurp these four in the next few comics, I'll admit that they probably are the Right Four. However, for the time being, I feel compelled to question whether they really are.

For all the other prophecies so far, there has been little to no room for debate as to when they actually were fulfilled. (not including Belkar indirectly killing Roy, as I believe the oracle directly refuted that as the intended meaning of that prophesy) I don't feel at this point that the circumstances are clear enough to be the Right Four Words. I think that Rich is doing this almost intentionally to screw with the minds of readers, just as he did when he foreshadowed Miko converting into a Blackguard.

I think that "The Wrong Reasons" as the title of the comic does not necessarily refer to the prophecy (or to ONLY the prophecy, as the case may very well be), but also be a reference to the debates that Rich knew full well would spring up when he posted the comic. (as a side question, are individual comic titles included in the various compilation books?)

After all, barring some line of logic that's currently evading me, it is impossible for both sides here to be correct. "The Wrong Reasons" could easily mean that these events were presented intentionally in such a manner that readers would have two different possible conclusions to arrive at, each with plausible reasons behind them. However, the reasons for believing one of those will, ultimately, prove to be incorrect.



Whether the coming strips prove me wrong (or, technically, fail to prove me right) or not, one thing that I do love about it is Rich bringing the 4th wall back into the comic. It feels like it's been far to long!

[Optimystik]

Plus, it seems valid. It DOES draw attention to itself without having any apparent narrative value. It's there to... give the Giant an excuse to put in an incredibly dated reference that's not even used as a joke? I know that not EVERYTHING has to be in the comic for a specifically delineated purpose, but this one is from way out in left field, and its total lack of necessary function is in itself its most prominent defining trait! We notice it mostly because we're noticing how there's no reason for it.

Are you referring to V's hesitant repetition? Because I went over the dramatic value it added, and Kaytara agreed with me. (Somewhat reluctantly, but I'll take what I can get. )

[pendell]

To the OP: I salute you, Captain Obvious!

People will think anyway that there's something worth discussing here.

*Bows*

At four pages and counting, I would say there is. Or perhaps people are just stubborn in their conclusions.

And 'schrodinger's words' poster wins the thread, as far as I'm concerned, at least so far.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Zeitgeist]

If no other words usurp these four in the next few comics, I'll admit that they probably are the Right Four. However, for the time being, I feel compelled to question whether they really are.

This doesn't make any sense. Nothing can happen AFTER he's acquired the power to help him acquire the power. If this comic is truly the acquiring of ultimate arcane power, then the words must have therefore been already spoken. You can't get power, then say you want the power you got, and say those words were responsible for you getting the power to begin with. It doesn't make any sense.

[jpnuar1]

This doesn't make any sense. Nothing can happen AFTER he's acquired the power to help him acquire the power. If this comic is truly the acquiring of ultimate arcane power, then the words must have therefore been already spoken. You can't get power, then say you want the power you got, and say those words were responsible for you getting the power to begin with. It doesn't make any sense.

V technically hasn't gotten that power yet. We saw everything fade to pink, and all signs are that something truly kick-ass is occuring/about to occur regarding hir. However, there may yet, for example, be complications regarding the soul splice that has never before been done (at least with 4x souls). As I mentioned (aka quoted), I believe that even if this wasn't it, we are very, very close to seeing that Complete and Total Arcane Power.

But still, we have not yet seen V achieve this power (even though Pink Glow may mean s/he is about to). Lets not put the hellcart before the demon-horse, after all.

[archon_huskie]

I'm with the people that believe these are not four words. This is the Giant playing with us. I expect something unexpected.

Well then you would not expect these to be the four words then now would you?

[B. Dandelion]

That Belkar thought his prophecy was a stretch doesn't invalidate it, nor does it make the Oracle's wording any less accurate.

I know. I said I find it really annoying. It's even more annoying given that the whole scene of Belkar and the Oracle arguing reads more than a bit like a lengthy Take That against the reasoning used by some people here on the forums. So, if these are the four words, and if we are not missing some vitally relevant piece of information, I'm finding the logic behind the prophecies to be somewhat inconsistently applied.

Also: NOT just Belkar. EVERYONE present in that scene sided with Belkar and strongly so, including Roy. The Oracle did too, really, he just didn't have anything to lose by arguing.

If Belkar had wanted it to be more precise, he should have said "kill" instead of the much more vague "cause the death of."

Hey not to be mean or anything? But if there's a schism in the fandom over the precise interpretation of something or other, I'm not going to point my finger at the fictional character who kicked off the miscommunication. People expect a degree of trickery with prophecy answers, and the ones here are included within War and XPs which the Giant claims was the first compilation written with the entire narrative in mind. He has had quite a lot of time to plan, set up, and execute this plot, there's no excuse for dropping the ball here.

Are you referring to V's hesitant repetition? Because I went over the dramatic value it added, and Kaytara agreed with me. (Somewhat reluctantly, but I'll take what I can get. )

Her facial expression and/or words? No. Not directly, at any rate. I mean this business with choosing red or blue. Why the heck is it there, what does it bring to the scene that could not have been had in any other way?

[Kish]

But that was my understanding of the specific point Kaytara had been attempting to make, where Kish was asking "are you saying... [something else entirely]?"

I decline to discuss anything by proxy. So let's settle this. Kaytara, did you mean that you considered the Matrix joke to be Rich's way of showing that "I...I must succeed" were not, in fact, the four words of the prophecy? Or did you mean something else?

[kusje]

I decline to discuss anything by proxy.

Not me. I agree with everything B. Dandelion has said (on this topic obviously) so she will be my champion!

[Optimystik]

I know. I said I find it really annoying. It's even more annoying given that the whole scene of Belkar and the Oracle arguing reads more than a bit like a lengthy Take That against the reasoning used by some people here on the forums. So, if these are the four words, and if we are not missing some vitally relevant piece of information, I'm finding the logic behind the prophecies to be somewhat inconsistently applied.

Also: NOT just Belkar. EVERYONE present in that scene sided with Belkar and strongly so, including Roy. The Oracle did too, really, he just didn't have anything to lose by arguing.

First off, they sided against him too, in the very same scene when Haley defended her prophecy. Secondly, you missed the point of all the rigmarole with the Oracle and Belkar's argument; it led to his prophecy actually being fulfilled unambiguously when he stabbed the kobold.

Hey not to be mean or anything? But if there's a schism in the fandom over the precise interpretation of something or other, I'm not going to point my finger at the fictional character who kicked off the miscommunication. People expect a degree of trickery with prophecy answers, and the ones here are included within War and XPs which the Giant claims was the first compilation written with the entire narrative in mind. He has had quite a lot of time to plan, set up, and execute this plot, there's no excuse for dropping the ball here.

I'm not concerned with schisms in the fandom, and neither should you be. (They are omnipresent, after all.) I was referring solely to Belkar's own dissatisfaction with his prophecy when he himself was responsible for wording it so vaguely.

And yes, I know Rich is the puppet master behind every word choice and misunderstanding our heroes must endure; however, he still has the obligation to make it credible, a burden of competence that in my opinion he has met.

Her facial expression and/or words? No. Not directly, at any rate. I mean this business with choosing red or blue. Why the heck is it there, what does it bring to the scene that could not have been had in any other way?

What makes that particular addition so much more onerous than, say, having V sign a contract in blood, or plunge a shard of obsidian into his breast? The fiends merely needed some non-verbal confirmation to go with the deal so that V wouldn't inadvertently end up accepting while still convinced of his righteousness. With the orbs system, V could verbally convince himself that he was doing the right thing all he wanted, yet still be left wide open when Lee corrected him since he hadn't touched anything yet.

[Zeitgeist]

V technically hasn't gotten that power yet. We saw everything fade to pink, and all signs are that something truly kick-ass is occuring/about to occur regarding hir. However, there may yet, for example, be complications regarding the soul splice that has never before been done (at least with 4x souls). As I mentioned (aka quoted), I believe that even if this wasn't it, we are very, very close to seeing that Complete and Total Arcane Power.

But still, we have not yet seen V achieve this power (even though Pink Glow may mean s/he is about to). Lets not put the hellcart before the demon-horse, after all.

I don't think it really matters if the powers come now, or take a few minutes/strips to process. Any decisions leading up to the acquisition of the power have been made. There's no more room to request, nor to say any 4 words that make the situation any more true than it already is. As goes the Matrix reference with the blue and red orbs, the decision was clearly solidified with the touching of the orb. No words now can alter that decision, as it's locked in.

To say that the words are still yet to come seems like a desperate claw at a nonexistent hope that the words have not yet been spoken. You really have to stretch things beyond reason to make that even slightly feasible.

[Cúchulainn]

Not me. I agree with everything B. Dandelion has said (on this topic obviously) so she will be my champion!

I choose Optimystik as mine, let the titanic duel between our champions decide the fate of all the boards!

[DoctorJest]

What if... what if the fiends were not entirely truthful (gasp!). What if V will have no problem sustaining the soul splice for as long as he (used in the neuter) wishes? But he can dismiss it anytime he wishes? Because once the dragon is defeated, he should say "I am done with you now... I end the splice" but what if he says "You are now mine!" or something similar instead to not release the nigh-omnipotence he wields.

Surely the fiends being able to use his soul for a similar time while it's still soul spliced would be a great advantage to them. They could control the most powerful arcanist the world has ever known for as long as they wait to enact the contract.

That said, V accepted the deal for the wrong reasons. It's obvious. You can see it all over his face (compare his expression to the first time he almost touched the blue orb and see the contrast of serene resignation vs desperate grasping, and that DOES make all the difference)

[IamJoseph]

I want to go on record as saying that I love how Rich Burlew had those fiends state very specificially that no Divine spells could be cast, not even using Wish or Limited Wish. This will hopefully nip in the bud any future rants about why V isn't using his Ultimate Arcane Power to bring Roy back from the dead. Sure, once upon a time it COULD have happened (as late as second edition mages could cast Reincarnate) but now it just isn't going to fly. About the only story arks that V can bring crashing down would be putting the team back together or using her abilities to put Xykon back in the dead book where he belongs.

But since Rich likes to make the story interesting, rather than short, I don't expect both of those to happen. In fact, I don't expect either of those to happen, but I have been wrong before.

I AM JOSEPH

[Lissou]

Okay, to the people who think it's not direct enough, i.e. the people who say "saying that didn't cause him to get the power, touching the orb did":

Let's go back to another prophecy that we know happened: Haley getting her speech back. She didn't get her speech back because she went out with Nale, she got her speech back because she told Elan she loved him, many strips later. However, the decisive action was her shutting her own self-doubts that deciding to accept the invitation. It was important character-wise, and led to the declaration, but more importantly to the fact that she kissed Nale (that she thought was Elan).

I see the same kind of pattern with V, personally. The direct cause is agreeing to the contract (by touching the orb) but the deciding factor was making that decision, and that happened before he touched the orb.
As such, you can read the prophecy as saying not "You will achieve ultimate arcane power by agreeing to a contract with Evil creatures" but "You will achieve ultimate arcane power when you consciously make the decision to put your pride/thirst for power first".

[netdroid9]

I've got a feeling that these are the four words, they're character-defining, epic, accompanied by awesome timing and a neato special effect, and yet... Well, that just plain aren't as awesome as, say, Belkar's "I am a SEXY SHOELESS GOD OF WAR". I was kinda hoping for a "Holy Crap, Did You Just Punch Out Cthulhu" moment, rather than a whimpering 'I must succeed because I'm too insecure to ask for help' moment. I'm hoping that this is a ridiculously complicated red herring, and later down the track V'll punch out Belkar or the Snarl with his bare hands whilst screaming "I AM A (WO)MAN" and get given ultimate power by the god of badass-ness.

[Selene]

Just... wow. In a strip called "The Wrong Reasons," V says four words and then gets "unprecedented arcane power," and some people actually believe this doesn't fulfill the prophecy? Unbelievable.

Also, he didn't ask when he was going to become a god. How much more ultimate than triple epic-level +14* can you get? Like is there some guy out there with triple epic +15 going "HAH! You are not ultimate, puny elf!"


*or whatever level V's own power is

[Cúchulainn]

Eh, everyone and their Bards are disappointed at it being not Dramatic enough or something. They'll get over it, or at least there'll be a minimal amount of these threads until something pops up that makes them remember that whole '4 word ripoff' thing.

Not to rain on your superiority parade...

My whole life is a veritable superiority parade, you'd need at least a hurricane. But this makes me grin whenever I open up the page and it's at the top.

[jpnuar1]

I don't think it really matters if the powers come now, or take a few minutes/strips to process. Any decisions leading up to the acquisition of the power have been made. There's no more room to request, nor to say any 4 words that make the situation any more true than it already is. As goes the Matrix reference with the blue and red orbs, the decision was clearly solidified with the touching of the orb. No words now can alter that decision, as it's locked in.

Once again, as we haven't actually seen V with that power yet, we really can't know that no complications will arise; that V really will get that Power. We have been told, (or at least it was very heavily implied,) that touching the blue orb would result in the soul splice, which we were told/implied would give V Ultimate Arcane Power.

But until the comic itself shows the completed product of the Splice, I'm just not certain.

To say that the words are still yet to come seems like a desperate claw at a nonexistent hope that the words have not yet been spoken. You really have to stretch things beyond reason to make that even slightly feasible.

Ahem. I never said they are. I said that we will likely know the answer very soon. (not including a another character's story arc that may leave us arguing until plot switches back to Vaarsivius)

[DigoDragon]

It niggles, but then, oracles are notoriously tricksy. (And we're notoriously nit-picky.)

Oh I know. Even I admit that it's a weak four words theory, but at the same time maybe that's all there is. To me it seems a lot of people built up this grandoise expectation that we'd see these big four words to some all-powerful being at a climatic moment... yet maybe it's this little comment V made that was all there was. Rich created a mole-hill and we've made a mountain out of it.

Sometimes it's the little things that make the biggest differences.

[Kaytara]

As I said earlier, the phrasing of the prophecy created an expectation that this comic fails to deliver on in certain aspects. That would mean that the Giant wanted to deliberately create false expectations and surprise us.

If we assume that is the case, then there still remains the fact that the fulfilment of the prophecy is not as satisfying as the resolution of such a major, long-term ongoing plot point should be, as indicated by countless posts. While I think Optimystik's arguments about drama value and tragic subversions of expectations are plausible enough that I'm more happy with this concept than I was initially, that kind of rationalisation shouldn't have been necessary.

Going by the replies in the discussion thread, it seems about half of the posters were at least vaguely dissatisfied or disappointed by the way the prophecy was fulfilled.

This leads us to doubt Rich's skills as a writer. The resolution of such a major plot point for a character should, after all, be satisfying, regardless of whether it's tragic or bizarre. (Therkla's death is a good counter-example. Her resolution was tragic, but fitting, if only judging by the fact that it didn't spawn pages of debate when it happened.)

This leaves us with two possibilities. Either we assume that Rich, despite his amazing skills as a writer, has failed to convincingly and satisfyingly tie up a major plot point that he's been planning for several hundred strips at the very least...

...or we conclude that he has something else up his sleeve. Which would, once again, be entirely in keeping with what we know of this story and Rich's twisty writing style. That's all there is to it, in my understanding at least.

To conclude, either all of the neon red pointers to this resolution in the past few strips have simply been build-up, or Rich is leading us on. IF these are not the four words, then we won't see them coming when they finally appear. (Whereas, by contrast, people have been speculating that V would get power from a Faustian Deal back when 599 came out, if not earlier.)

I decline to discuss anything by proxy. So let's settle this. Kaytara, did you mean that you considered the Matrix joke to be Rich's way of showing that "I...I must succeed" were not, in fact, the four words of the prophecy? Or did you mean something else?

Actually, I wasn't thinking of the Matrix joke at all. I wasn't saying that the comic wouldn't show when V's prophecy was fulfilled, either, B. Dandelion got that right.
My point was more like this:

The prophecy involves getting a lot of power. Assuming this is it, how has Rich fulfilled this prophecy? He first introduces the possibility of an avenue that is traditionally, predictably used in stories for characters to obtain power. (As I said earlier, people have been speculating that V would get UAP out of a Faustian Deal back during the giant devil arc.) Then, Rich creates a set of circumstances which all conspire to make V desperate enough to make a deal with the devil against his better judgement. (The idea of getting more power has also been present in V's obsession arc from the very beginning.) He also conspicuously leaves Qarr alive after Vaarsuvius has rejected his help while creating a crisis that will obviously make V reconsider the idea of accepting Qarr's help. V does that, demanding power. So now the fiends appear and offer V power. V accepts and gets just that?

The outcome of this arc is pretty much exactly what people have been predicting thirty strips ago. (Not the dragon or the IFCC, of course, but the basics are the same. V gets power out of a bargain with a fiend, does it out of pride and frustration and dooms his soul in the process. All of the extra icing on this story arc has only served the purpose of showing us that V is not, in fact, unscrupulous, or stupid enough to think that he can beat a fiend at its own game, that it takes a great deal to convince him to do this.)

Your mileage may wary, but it seems a tad too.. predictable for Rich's style.

[B. Dandelion]

Not me. I agree with everything B. Dandelion has said (on this topic obviously) so she will be my champion!

...Seriously? Uh, wow. But now the only pertinent question left is:

can we get lightsabers?

First off, they sided against him too, in the very same scene when Haley defended her prophecy.

Just Haley. Belkar didn't argue with her on that point exactly, meaning he either tacitly accepted her logic or just didn't care one way or the other. Celia, Roy and the Oracle did not comment. Moreover, Haley's defense of her own prophecy was to start out with the specific assertion that the Oracle's advice had led directly to her getting her voice back... which, yeah, that's... odd. I'm gonna get to Haley's bit later on, but for the time being, she says "directly," which is the source of the disagreement here.

Secondly, you missed the point of all the rigmarole with the Oracle and Belkar's argument;

This wording presumes both that there was only one "point" to said rigmarole, and that you are the one who gets to define it.

it led to his prophecy actually being fulfilled unambiguously when he stabbed the kobold.

Yes, that was a clear result of that argument.

The argument itself gets kind of overlooked since the real action is in Belkar's rising frustration, plus a possible hint ("as for the elf.."). But a lot of the logic people are using for V is the same as was dismissed here. It's the influence. The Oracle tries to assert that Belkar influenced Roy with the ring, he influenced Miko (by influencing his party). It's two whole pages of this argument, and for me it undercuts the idea that V's "influence" on herself should be the operative force at work.

I'm not concerned with schisms in the fandom, and neither should you be. (They are omnipresent, after all.) I was referring solely to Belkar's own dissatisfaction with his prophecy when he himself was responsible for wording it so vaguely.

And yes, I know Rich is the puppet master behind every word choice and misunderstanding our heroes must endure; however, he still has the obligation to make it credible, a burden of competence that in my opinion he has met.

Augh I don't know why I'm finding it so difficult to write this coherently.

Having Belkar throw a hissyfit like that causes a lot of attention to be paid to certain concepts, and then there is reason to explain them in greater detail. I find it hard to believe that the Giant himself would not have anticipated at least some of the fan reaction to the setup he'd given the whole prophecy deal. So the fact that he has Belkar ask his question in such a way as to not only allow mutually inclusive "yes" answers but muddy the issue even further by asking if he'd "cause the death of" someone rather than "get to kill" someone makes me think it may well have been deliberate. During that 2 full page thing, having the Oracle try to weasel out of things... it shows what logic he's telling us is not going to apply. It wasn't about informing BELKAR of something he'd overlooked.

What makes that particular addition so much more onerous than, say, having V sign a contract in blood, or plunge a shard of obsidian into his breast?

Onerous? Nothing. Those would all presumably be nonverbal as well. If it had been one of them instead, I would have wondered what their narrative purpose was too.

The fiends merely needed some non-verbal confirmation to go with the deal so that V wouldn't inadvertently end up accepting while still convinced of his righteousness. With the orbs system, V could verbally convince himself that he was doing the right thing all he wanted, yet still be left wide open when Lee corrected him since he hadn't touched anything yet.

I... what? This is a manufactured dilemma. She wants to lie to herself and they stop her. This can't happen in a purely verbal scenario? Like she can't THINK to herself she's doing it for a noble cause while saying the four magic words they tell her to repeat?

Haley getting her speech back. She didn't get her speech back because she went out with Nale, she got her speech back because she told Elan she loved him, many strips later. However, the decisive action was her shutting her own self-doubts that deciding to accept the invitation. It was important character-wise, and led to the declaration, but more importantly to the fact that she kissed Nale (that she thought was Elan).

Haley's answer wasn't much like V's. (Actually it wasn't like ANY of the other answers we've seen the Oracle give. I guess he likes her more than most humans?)

"By saying..." this allows one simple, clear action to be the trigger.

"When the gift horse comes calling, don't look it in the mouth" - This... doesn't. It tells her to not do something, and, in context, that leads to... meandering along a path leads to an eventual cure. I think Haley needed a number of things to line up before she was capable of breaking through her aphasia. No one component was of lesser importance.

[tcrudisi]

The argument itself gets kind of overlooked since the real action is in Belkar's rising frustration, plus a possible hint ("as for the elf.."). But a lot of the logic people are using for V is the same as was dismissed here. It's the influence. The Oracle tries to assert that Belkar influenced Roy with the ring, he influenced Miko (by influencing his party). It's two whole pages of this argument, and for me it undercuts the idea that V's "influence" on herself should be the operative force at work.


Augh I don't know why I'm finding it so difficult to write this coherently.

Having Belkar throw a hissyfit like that causes a lot of attention to be paid to certain concepts, and then there is reason to explain them in greater detail. I find it hard to believe that the Giant himself would not have anticipated at least some of the fan reaction to the setup he'd given the whole prophecy deal. So the fact that he has Belkar ask his question in such a way as to not only allow mutually inclusive "yes" answers but muddy the issue even further by asking if he'd "cause the death of" someone rather than "get to kill" someone makes me think it may well have been deliberate. During that 2 full page thing, having the Oracle try to weasel out of things... it shows what logic he's telling us is not going to apply. It wasn't about informing BELKAR of something he'd overlooked.

Disclaimer: I'm going off memory, so I could be incorrect. Also, I'm lazy and so not going to actually look it up.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the Oracle was never actually proven wrong with his "weaseling attempts." The Order may have said that it was a stretch and they weren't buying it, and even the Oracle may have admitted to it being far-fetched, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't true. The prophecy said that he would be the cause of death of at least one of them. Just because the Oracle and Order didn't like the train of logic doesn't mean it wasn't true. Or rather, Belkar could have been the cause of death for ALL of them.

I'm not necessarily arguing for this, I am just pointing out that you can not go around saying that it's been disproved when it hasn't.

*edited to put the beginning of the quote tag in*

[MickJay]

I am quite confident that people who did not participate in a few dozen of threads discussing ad nauseam the possibilities concerning the 4 words find/will find the latest strip more than sufficiently dramatic and fulfilling all of the points of the prophecy. It's not like the comic is written only for members of this forum, and the constant discussions here do tend to skew the view on the whole story (and raise expectations to ridiculous levels).

[Corian_Aerdeth]

I am quite confident that people who did not participate in a few dozen of threads discussing ad nauseam the possibilities concerning the 4 words find/will find the latest strip more than sufficiently dramatic and fulfilling all of the points of the prophecy. It's not like the comic is written only for members of this forum, and the constant discussions here do tend to skew the view on the whole story (and raise expectations to ridiculous levels).

Quite so. It could have been "Disintegrate Gust of Wind" since that was the moment V began to be willing to do whatever was expedient to pursue an arcane goal, morality irrespective. It could also easily be "I.. I cannot fail" as he is gaining arcane power for pride (Wrong Reason). It could also be words like "I won't relinquish this" or "Epic Slay Evil Outsiders" in a few strips, when he gets a big head. But as one who reads the comic FAR more than the boards, I have yet to be disappointed, although I have been wrong frequently.

[Endarire]

After reading 634, I believe these to be appropriate phrases:

"I own this world!"
"Ultimate power is mine!"
"I am now invincible!"
"Cower before me, mortals!"
"Failure is now impossible."

(When asked about what V was doing, he replies)

"What must be done."
"I serve another master."
"I no longer care."
"It no longer matters."

[Optimystik]

...Seriously? Uh, wow. But now the only pertinent question left is:

can we get lightsabers?

The Force is with you, young Skywalker. But you are not a Jedi yet.

This wording presumes both that there was only one "point" to said rigmarole, and that you are the one who gets to define it.

There was a main point to it, certainly. There may have been others, but the argument's conclusion (and the Oracle's preparations by putting a village near his tower) makes it obvious that he fully expected that one outcome.

Yes, that was a clear result of that argument.

The argument itself gets kind of overlooked since the real action is in Belkar's rising frustration, plus a possible hint ("as for the elf.."). But a lot of the logic people are using for V is the same as was dismissed here. It's the influence. The Oracle tries to assert that Belkar influenced Roy with the ring, he influenced Miko (by influencing his party). It's two whole pages of this argument, and for me it undercuts the idea that V's "influence" on herself should be the operative force at work.

Your personal feelings on Belkar's prophecy notwithstanding, everything the Oracle said was perfectly true. Belkar did make Roy's fall possible, and many other factors were at work (gravity, Celia's ignorance, etc.) Miko didn't make her "sin-stained blood" speech until after the Order defended Belkar.

Convoluted? Certainly. But many prophecies are. (Read any Greek Mythology lately?)

Augh I don't know why I'm finding it so difficult to write this coherently.

Having Belkar throw a hissyfit like that causes a lot of attention to be paid to certain concepts, and then there is reason to explain them in greater detail. I find it hard to believe that the Giant himself would not have anticipated at least some of the fan reaction to the setup he'd given the whole prophecy deal. So the fact that he has Belkar ask his question in such a way as to not only allow mutually inclusive "yes" answers but muddy the issue even further by asking if he'd "cause the death of" someone rather than "get to kill" someone makes me think it may well have been deliberate. During that 2 full page thing, having the Oracle try to weasel out of things... it shows what logic he's telling us is not going to apply. It wasn't about informing BELKAR of something he'd overlooked.

You're making an assumption here. Just because Belkar doesn't think a certain item of logic doesn't apply doesn't make it Word of God. Quite the opposite in fact. And even if it did, it doesn't make the Oracle's statements wrong.

Onerous? Nothing. Those would all presumably be nonverbal as well. If it had been one of them instead, I would have wondered what their narrative purpose was too.

I... what? This is a manufactured dilemma. She wants to lie to herself and they stop her. This can't happen in a purely verbal scenario? Like she can't THINK to herself she's doing it for a noble cause while saying the four magic words they tell her to repeat?

His thoughts aren't supposed to be clear at this point. Look at his expression just prior to the time stop's expiration. He's torn by indecision and his entire mind is a jumble. He's distracted, under pressure, scared out of his mind and greedy beyond all reason... simultaneously.

Could Rich have picked one thought out of all that mess and done an internal monologue, followed by 4 spoken words? Possibly. But I like this way better. Sometimes saying something out loud gives you clarity that talking in your head can't match.

Haley's answer wasn't much like V's. (Actually it wasn't like ANY of the other answers we've seen the Oracle give. I guess he likes her more than most humans?)

"By saying..." this allows one simple, clear action to be the trigger.

The question is, would he have touched/signed/agreed to anything had he not talked himself down first?

Just Haley. Belkar didn't argue with her on that point exactly, meaning he either tacitly accepted her logic or just didn't care one way or the other. Celia, Roy and the Oracle did not comment. Moreover, Haley's defense of her own prophecy was to start out with the specific assertion that the Oracle's advice had led directly to her getting her voice back... which, yeah, that's... odd. I'm gonna get to Haley's bit later on, but for the time being, she says "directly," which is the source of the disagreement here.
...
"When the gift horse comes calling, don't look it in the mouth" - This... doesn't. It tells her to not do something, and, in context, that leads to... meandering along a path leads to an eventual cure. I think Haley needed a number of things to line up before she was capable of breaking through her aphasia. No one component was of lesser importance.

But that's just it. You're assuming that because the words came before his touching of the orb, that they are somehow less important. They aren't.

It's simple. If he hadn't reassured himself by speaking out loud, he wouldn't have gone through with it. Even distilling his thoughts into spoken words, his indecision and hesitance managed to show themselves; he was a hairsbreadth away from not doing it. Why is that so difficult to follow?

[Aahz]

I predict the titles of the next one or two strips will include "The Right Four Words" and possibly "To The Right Person". In other words, we're going to see the Right Four Words and the Right Person in the next strip(s), and this is just (as it describes) the Wrong Reasons.