Questions of a weird mind

[pffh]

Well, we have words for it...
It means something about joyful harm, right?
My apologies, I used Google Translate, the German dictionary is upstairs, and I've got a laptop on my lap and it's getting late.

It basically means laughing at others misfortune.

[Elemental]

That makes a lot more sense.

I suppose the real question is:
Why can't English make up its mind as to which language it wants to be based on?
I already know the answer, it's a hobby of mine, but I want to hear other people's opinions.

Edit: Also, why do I keep getting words confused when typing?

[Yora]

The thing with english is, that it started as a pidgin language from lots of different people with different languages settling in a rather small area in relatively short time. First there were the Brittons, then came the anglo-saxons, followed by vikings from Denmark and Sweden, and then came the French who took over upper class society. I don't know the hard facts about the origin of the english language, but I assume that it came into being when people of the different ethnic groups had to deal with each other and picked up words from each others languages. English grammar is also rediculously simple when compared to German or French, so they were probably also talking like "Me Tarzan, you Jane" for a very long time until at some point there was a sizable pool of words with a simple grammar that most poeple could speak with. But naturally, that would be a rather "primitive" language that is mostly used to communicate very simple day to day things. If you wanted to talk about complicated things, you'd probably talked in Latin or French.

If you ever learned a foreign language, there's a point where you start to be able to communicate but only know a basic vocabulary, so you often say "can I have something to write on" or "where is the next shop where I can buy bread". And I think english never really developed much beyond that point. Which makes it such a great language for other people to learn.

Now German has the added complication of compound words. In a sense, compound words are not exactly new words, but just a way to combine existing words in a sentence. English does that as well when they speak, but they keep the words separate when when they write it. Pferdekutsche and horse carriage are exactly the same thing (except that you have to alter the ending of Pferd/horse if it describes the carriage). However, since Germans are used to such words, we often actually make up new words that only include two or three of the most important words of a longer sequence of words. Schadenfreude is in fact "Freude über das Unglück anderer" (delight over the misfortune of others). If you translate it directly, it's only "Misfortune Delight" which doesn't really make much sense. It only makes sense if someone once explained to you the concept, because much of the important information from the description has been dropped.
German writers invented lots of really awsome words that way, but pretty much always as part of a longer text that explains the concept. You could do the same in other languages as well, but it probably sounds weird and artifical. As you combine words in that way all the time, I assume german writers feel much more natural about making up new ones.

And we have created so many great ones. "At the same time I commiserate and condemn you - I bet the Germans have a word for this"

I think we should start a new "Mussings about language" thread, those are always very entertaining.

[Grinner]

The thing with english is, that it started as a pidgin language from lots of different people with different languages settling in a rather small area in relatively short time.

"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." ~ James D. Nicoll

[Tebryn]

Why does the German language have a word for insane, but not for sane? On the other hand, why do the English have no word for Schadenfreude? I'm sure the English aren't less schadenfreudig than the Germans, why didn't they invent a word for it?

We call it Trolling.

[Grinner]

While we're on the topic on languages, how weird are they? They're learned so well that they actually become integrated into a person's consciousness.

German writers invented lots of really awsome words that way, but pretty much always as part of a longer text that explains the concept. You could do the same in other languages as well, but it probably sounds weird and artifical. As you combine words in that way all the time, I assume german writers feel much more natural about making up new ones.

Actually, English writers sometimes use compound words. Or portmanteaus, in other cases.

[Goosefeather]

Which makes it [English] such a great language for other people to learn.

We do our best to complicate the issue with our wonderfully non-phonetic pronunciation system =P

And phrasal verbs are, I've been informed by French and Spanish friends, a massive pain to learn - probably not so much for a German speaker though, given that you have separable verbs, which is a pretty similar concept.

On the other hand, our conjugation is easy, bar a couple of oddities, we barely use cases or subjunctives any more, and we completely avoid grammatical gender, all of which vastly simplifies the task of learning it.

We do have a very extensive vocabulary though, given the bastardised nature of the language, and the preponderance of synonyms of different origins means they acquire different nuances over time. Take 'kingly' (Germanic), 'royal' (French) and 'regal' (Latinate). Each has slightly different connotations in meaning, while French uses 'royal' for all three, and German uses 'königlich'.*

* It's been a while since I last studied German, but I don't remember there being any other synonyms for it - correct me if I'm wrong though!

[GolemsVoice]

We do have a word for it, we call it schadenfreude. We are not an inventive language

Fair enough I guess

Next question: do you think the US government, or any government for that matter, has plans for an alien attack? The thought really struck me while watching Battle: Los Angeles. Do they call their officers and say "We got an R-42, open envelopes labeled ET-57/C!"?

[Eldan]

You probably wouldn't use "königlich" for what "regal" means. As in "regal bearing", I mean. "Majestätisch" (majestic) maybe. Or "hoheitsvoll", which, translates literally to something like highnessfull. Full of highness.

[Karoht]

Fair enough I guess

Next question: do you think the US government, or any government for that matter, has plans for an alien attack? The thought really struck me while watching Battle: Los Angeles. Do they call their officers and say "We got an R-42, open envelopes labeled ET-57/C!"?

I think they have a plan the same way most people have a plan for zombie invasion. They have some general ideas of what they think they will do, a plan a, b, c, maybe even d, but all of the above likely are similar proceedures to what they would do in the event of an air raid or mass panic.
Good chance they would have a use of force directive, or just apply the current one that works on people and say 'do this to them' and point vaguely in the aliens direction.

I also imagine the US nuclear retaliation directives apply to all kinds of attackers, not merely the old communist targets. In other words, DEFCON still applies even if the attacker/target is not of this earth.

[Matthias2207]

This question has bothered me for a very long time now:
Why do human males have nipples?
I once heard it has something to do with the amount of estrogen in the womb. Every human is supposed to be female until later in the pregnancy, or something like that. Still, what is the evolutionary advantage to having nipples? It would be confusing for other males if a male has something only females are supposed to have. They try to copulate with the male, are disappointed if he turns out to be male, kill him, end of the line for male nipples. Right?

[Ravens_cry]

Well, there is no disadvantage to men having nipples, so they never got selected out.
It's why a lot of genetic errors abound that are recessive. They only cause trouble when they get two copies, so a carrier, someone with only a single copy, has no net disadvantage and keeps making kids who can also get the gene.
In some cases, like sickle cell anaemia, the single copy's effect is actually a net advantage.
Incidentally, this also explains the incest taboo.
If closely related couples couple, they are much more likely to have their recessive and otherwise harmless errors meet up and express in their off spring, leading to disadvantaged offspring who are themselves less likely breed.
There is a bit of the "good lie" in all this in that it is not the complete picture, but it's a good start.

[AsteriskAmp]

Zurechnungsfähig?

[Ravens_cry]

Zurechnungsfähig?

Pardon? I sprechen no Deutsch.

[pffh]

Pardon? I sprechen no Deutsch.

Means sane.

[Karoht]

Don't forget about things like vestigal organs such as the appendix.

[Grinner]

This question has bothered me for a very long time now:
Why do human males have nipples?
I once heard it has something to do with the amount of estrogen in the womb. Every human is supposed to be female until later in the pregnancy, or something like that. Still, what is the evolutionary advantage to having nipples? It would be confusing for other males if a male has something only females are supposed to have. They try to copulate with the male, are disappointed if he turns out to be male, kill him, end of the line for male nipples. Right?

Through hearsay, I've learned that, in extreme circumstances, men have been known to lactate.

[pffh]

Through hearsay, I've learned that, in extreme circumstances, men have been known to lactate.

Men can be made to lactate. If I'm remembering it correctly simply suckling on them regularly will cause men to eventually produce small amounts of milk.

[Ravens_cry]

Means sane.

Interesting. Google Translate alternately translates it as both "sane" and "attribution capability". Putting on my etymological cap, this tells me the words component meaning is not just someone who is sane, but, more specifically, someone who can be blamed and praised, their actions and words taken with obvious intent, instead of dismissed as the ramblings of a mad man and not to be taken seriously.

[Eldan]

It's a legal term, actually. "Zurechnen", the verb, means more or less "to attribute to" or "to assign to". "Fähig" is "able". Basically, in court, you plead "unzurechnungsfähig", i.e. the Insanity Defence. Also, temporary insanity, or whatever the English term is. Someone who is not responsible for their own actions.

[pffh]

Interesting. Google Translate alternately translates it as both "sane" and "attribution capability". Putting on my etymological cap, this tells me the words component meaning is not just someone who is sane, but, more specifically, someone who can be blamed and praised, their actions and words taken with obvious intent, instead of dismissed as the ramblings of a mad man and not to be taken seriously.

Huh you would have a field day if you ever decided to learn Icelandic we have almost nothing but component words and almost any two words can be turned into component words except for funnily enough component word which would be samsett orð.

A fun example is: Vaðlaheiðarvegagerðarmannaverkfærageymsluskúrslykl akippuhringurinn which means roughly "The Vaðla hill roadworkers toolshed keyring ring" but can quite easily be made a lot longer by adding more adjectives or nouns.

[Ravens_cry]

It's a legal term, actually. "Zurechnen", the verb, means more or less "to attribute to" or "to assign to". "Fähig" is "able". Basically, in court, you plead "unzurechnungsfähig", i.e. the Insanity Defence. Also, temporary insanity, or whatever the English term is. Someone who is not responsible for their own actions.

Exactly! Another English translation might be the legalize definition of "competent."

[Frozen_Feet]

Well, we have words for it...
It means something about joyful harm, right?

And that's the punchline. Both in German and Finnish and several other languages I know of, the term for Schadenfreude is simply a compound word made of local equivalents to "joy" and "harm". (The Finnish word, "vahingonilo", literally translates to "joy of harm".)

So, it boggles the mind that for some reason, English opts to borrow a foreign compound word instead of just using their own, existing words as a compound.

[Ravens_cry]

The concept is hardly foreign, but schadenfreude is such a fun word to say and English just loves its loan words.

[Goosefeather]

We've also pinched 'Angst', 'Weltschmerz' and 'Sehnsucht', though you don't come across the latter very often.

Must be something to do with the German psychological state...

[Eldan]

I still don't get why you had to grab Angst, really. Fear is a perfectly useful word. As for Sehnsucht... Desire? Longing? Craving? Yearning? What's wrong with those?

[Ravens_cry]

I still don't get why you had to grab Angst, really. Fear is a perfectly useful word.

Why, yes it is, but it doesn't capture what angst is in the slightest, at least in English.

[Kobold-Bard]

I still don't get why you had to grab Angst, really. Fear is a perfectly useful word. As for Sehnsucht... Desire? Longing? Craving? Yearning? What's wrong with those?

We're like language kleptomaniacs, we take them not because we need them, but because they're there and we just need to have them.

[Dogmantra]

Angst (in English) doesn't really mean fear, at least not any more. Fear is more "ahhh, a bear is coming", angst is more like anxiety, which is less... fight or flight?

[Goosefeather]

Their German equivalents have a more specific, more... existential feeling, which bog-standard English words don't convey

I guess it's mixture of both the standard exoticising effect of using a foreign word, and the German philosophical tradition (in my opinion, you and the Greeks are tied for the title of 'Nation With The Best Philosophers'!)