The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

[Mightymosy]

All TFA said about her parents is that they left her, and Rey thinks they'll come back. That's it. Yes, she got visions about them (and about Luke watching the temple burn in The Last Jedi) when she touched the lightsaber, but any conclusions reached from her getting random force visions from touching a lightsaber that's been through a lot of emotional stuff are just that, conclusions from a random flash of images and voices.

Thank you. For some reason I thought there was more. I thought I remembered someone saying in one of the two movies that her parents were important or something. But I may be wrong.
If what you said is literally everything, I guess I'll let Rian Johnson off the hook for that particular instance of percieved "Gotcha-Writing". Like I said in the last post, I actually like the idea for Rey being child to nobody special - if nothing before contradicts that.

I've never understood the "I wish they showed Rey had personal training in it to justify her abilities" problem. The Jedi Religion is...a religion. Very few people talk about how Chirut from Rogue One got to do some pretty clearly Force related stuff despite not even BEING a Jedi, just a descendant of the caretakers of the temple. But he had a lot of faith in the Force, and it moved through him. Rey's the same way I feel, except she doesn't show it as much as Chirut because Rey's kinda casual about being super into and believing all this stuff. For me, given that the Force and the Jedi and all this are meant to be analogous to divine powers and stuff, just with a science-y twist (like a good science fantasy should have) it makes sense that there's only so much training can do before "relying on faith and belief" becomes important, and how the latter can make up for the former.
[...]

I can tell you what I dislike about it, if you want to know.

There is no question that in fantasy you can clearly go both ways. You can make characters that are born with their superpowers and instinctively use them, or you can say that they are only born with a potential that needs to be awakened and trained in order for them to use it.

I strongly prefer the second option, but I don't fault any work of fiction for choosing the first if the author thinks it suits their work better.
The problem with the new Star Wars Trilogies is that - again -they contradict the established canon, and this something that just rubs me the wrong way when it is done in an ongoing story.

Phantom Menace did it with Anakin who as a child built C-3PO, a Podracer, won a podracer race and later flew a spacefighter and blew up an enemy battlestation.
I always assumed that was because he was so strong with the force. If the force wasn't actually the explanation, then I would find it even more strange, so.....

And now with Rey it is not that she is somewhat competent at fighting. I didn't mind the part where she fought with her staff early in the movie.
What bothered me a little was how easily she fought Kylo. The guy is supposed to be the big bad, and likely recieved like lots of training plus actual combat experience.

If it was the wound distracting him, ok. Should have been a little bit more obvious, but maybe I just didn't see it because it was too fast or I'm too dumb.

But she also used the Jedi Mind Trick, which Luke took three movies to learn, and he had the greatest Jedi Master to learn from.

Rey seems to be able to beat up Kylo already, with a little luck. She can lift rocks and do the Jedi mind trick.
What is left for her to learn?
Obi-Wan couldn't do much more than that, I think.

I just feel that she, as the main hero, should have some development arc.
How is the final battle in IX supposed to look like? Beating up the same guy she almost beat up two times already?


Another reason why I like the "second option" more is that characters who need to train and learn to unlock their true potential are just way more relatable for me, because that's the way humans work.
See the post below from Peelee. This is basically what I mean.

Plus I don't buy the stuff about "natural talents without training" so much anyway.
Real-life experience tells me that greatness always comes with a cost. Always.


Re: Chirrut

Strangely enough, Chirrut is one of my most favourite characters in the whole Saga. For me personally, he is Jedi done better than a lot of the actual Jedi in the prequels.....
The way you word it sure makes me wonder why I accept his force powers so much better than Rey's.

Which, I think, comes from a couple reasons:
-

• I assumed he was a guard of the Jedi temple and had recieved some combat training by the actual Jedi when they were still there. I don't know if this is true (saw Rogue One only once, but now I really want to again).
• the way the actors do the force feels different for me. When Chirrut does something he always mutters "I'm one with the Force; the Force is with me."
  For me that made the impression that he requires great concentration to get in tune with the force, to get it right. It didn't seem easy to him.
  While Rey appears to naturally get stuff and simply does it. Don't know if this is the acting, the script or me being to dumb reading facial expressions, but that's my impression.
• - all in all Chirrut is a character who seems way more worried to me than Rey - he is so awesome at fighting, but still seems reluctant to get into fights. For me, that's just what a warrior looks like. Even though he knows that he is good, he knows that he can still die, and therefore isn't happily jumping into every battle (this is why I liked Rogue One so much in general, compared to the new Sequels - although Finn also portraits that trait somewhat well, with him trying to desert and stuff)

That Chirrut guy is one of my favourite characters in the Star Wars movies. And he even left impression on my girlfriend as well.
She isn't interested in Star Wars at all. She preferred painting the living room to going with us to Last Jedi, for example.
But when she watched Rogue One with us, she muttered Chirrut's phrase on quite a couple occasions afterwards when things were difficult:
"I'm one with the Force; the Force is with me."

So,huge thumbs up for whoever came up and wrote that guy!


[/I]

"Natural talent" typically means one learns, understands, or performs what is taught very quickly. Of the (very) few instances where natural talent required no actual training, whether formal or self-teaching, such as Mozart writing musical pieces at four years old, they typically deal with creation.

Even Bruce Lee had to practice to get good.

[GloatingSwine]

Yes but the Force version of dog paddling is moving small objects, not the Mind Trick.

I contend that you are not actually a space wizard and do not actually know this.

[Aeson]

I feel like Rey counts as martially trained given she's had to fend for herself for basically her entire life.

Experienced, probably. Trained, however? No. There are good ways and bad ways and mediocre ways, safe ways and dangerous ways to do things, and whereas a formally-trained person theoretically has been taught to do things in the better and safer ways, there's nothing to say that the experienced but untrained person has learned the same things. Learning by experience teaches you to do what has worked in the past and to not do the things that have not worked. Nothing but your success says that the ways in which you have done things in the past are good or safe ways to do something.

That isn't to say that an untrained but experienced fighter is a worse ally or a less dangerous opponent than a trained martial artist, of course, but training and experience are neither completely interchangeable nor equivalent.

She's been on Jakku awhile, you don't think some junk trader with a sword hasn't at least tried to mug her?

Even if basically nobody on Jakku has blasters despite it in some ways seeming as you can't go five feet without tripping over a blaster in a Star Wars movie, I'd say that "robbed at swordpoint" is an exceptionally unlikely scenario. Swords are purpose-built weapons with very little intended use outside of fighting other people, take a lot of skill to make well, and are not easily improvised. Various kinds of clubs, staves, and pole-arms are far more easily improvised, especially in an environment where sections of pipe, rods, and common mechanics' tools are readily available; axes, picks, staves, knives, and hammers, or things similar to them, are common tools. If I were going to create a list close-quarters and melee weapons that Rey may have been threatened with at some point in her past in order of likelihood, swords would be fairly far down the list.

[Leewei]

May I suggest The Next Last Jedi Thread for a title?

[Blackhawk748]

I contend that you are not actually a space wizard and do not actually know this.

*points to Luke Skywalker* That is our establishment of how this works. He is the son of the Chosen One and the best he can manage early on is some simple telekinesis.

In formal training (scroll down to instruction), the Jedi start with the Training Drones so you can feel the Force move through you, and then they apparently move on to bigger things. So i was wrong, Telekenisis isn't dog paddling, its what is above dog paddling.

[LaZodiac]

May I suggest The Next Last Jedi Thread for a title?

That's a good one, given how the film ends.

@MightyMosey: Throughout the entire scene we see Kylo slamming himself in the torso where he was show with a bowcaster to try and numb the pain (shown to be capable of taking people like five feet off the ground with it's shots). Adding onto this VERY BAD physical wound, the emotional damage of actually killing his father very easily removes any actual training at fighting. When you're that mentally unstable, on top of being that physically wounded, on top of just being an unstable person normally, who's fighting with a sword that isn't even actually working properly because you built it wrong, you're going to lose a fight with someone who's got some degree of competence, even if she's not inherently trained with the laser sword.

Also the last film will have Ren actually fighting at full power. Remember that the Last Jedi takes place over 18 hours. We don't see anyone but Rey actually sleep so we have no reason to assume Hux didn't force everyone to stay awake for that full 18 hours. And that's after Ren's had to kill his dad (though he's gotten over it, mostly) had to watch his Mom seemingly die (still kinda bothered by this but realizing it's okay to let the past die) and has to still be recovering from his wounds (though the doctors stitched the scars up at least).

Dude's running on fumes in Last Jedi, of course he's not gonna win outright. And for what it's worth his only actual fighting is after he takes out more of the red guards than Rey does, so that wore him down too.

[Dr.Samurai]

While it doesn't detract from the rest of your points, isn't the first thing Yoda says to Luke that the Dark Side is not more powerful? 'Easier, more seductive it is' - in other words, it's not so much a route to greater power as a faster one, letting you trade your morality in exchange for not having to work to achieve that level of power.

I don't think that's exactly accurate, but even if so, it doesn't make sense in the movie. If Kylo is using the dark side, then he should have an even easier time drawing on the Force, as opposed to Rey who has had no exposure to it before that day and not even a second of training.

As Peelee points out, now anyone can simply "use the force" at will if they are Force sensitive. What determines that? The Force does, I guess, to maintain the Balance. The way that Rey's "awakening" happens in her fight with Kylo is much more akin to someone drawing on the dark side than a Jedi drawing on their power.

Anyway, point being that this movie is definitely changing the way the Force works and how people acquire their abilities.

Spoiler: The Dark Side

Show

I think the point of the dark side is that it is easier and leads to more power, but it is corrupting and, basically, evil. But looking through the prequels, the dark siders are much stronger than the Jedi. Obi-wan is really the only one with a good record for beating dark siders. Otherwise, Maul beats Qui-gon, Tyrannus beats Anakin, Ben, and Yoda, Tyrannus beats Ben later again, Sidious beats Yoda, Sidious beats 3 of the 4 Jedi Masters that go to arrest him (in seconds) and arguably "loses" to Windu in order to seduce Anakin. That's just in the PT. In the OT, Vader beats Ben and Luke only defeats Vader through his use of the dark side. Luke is still no match for Sidious.

I think the OT and the PT have established that the dark side is powerful, and the Sith are stronger than the Jedi. And the numbers of jedi vs Sith doesn't really matter because when you get to the OT the sith now outnumber the jedi and Sidious still can't be beat.

In the EU, the dark side is definitely "stronger". It feeds off of pain, fear, and anger, and in combat can create a loop of increasing power if the user can harness those emotions to turn it into force potential.

Maybe I'm weird but the Jedi Mind Trick seemed like the easiest thing a force user could do since it's just saying something really convincingly, effectively.

It's just that training has always been required.

If Rey doesn't need training, then we need a few lines establishing her as some sort of prodigy. She should talk about how she's always been able to influence minds or move stuff with a thought. I mean, truthfully, at this point it doesn't much matter to me because it's two movies in now and we know she can just do whatever the plot requires of her. But it hurt the story to introduce a character that doesn't play by the same rules and no explanation is given for why that's the case.

To be fair, telekinesis seems to be force power 101 (all the loose gravel just started lifting up when Rey fully connected to the force on the Jedi Retreat of the trilogy) and I don't remember Rey denying knowing of or about the force. She seemed to have a pretty good idea from the get go of who and what Luke Skywalker was.

You're right. She knows about the Force, but doesn't know if it is real or not. Meaning this isn't a case of her having experimented with Force powers, or feeling something strange and not knowing what it was. She had no reason to believe the Force was real and not simply a myth. So her first exposure to it was... when she is first using it. And when she first uses it, she is simply proficient.

As far as Telekinesis being easy to use, no it's not. Luke struggles with it in the OT. Rey just uses it and looks surprised. As I mentioned earlier, her (and everyone else's) look of astonishment when she's lifting the boulders at the end of TLJ took me out of the movie because I was confused why they were all surprised. And the answer is "oh right, Rey has never done this before and never trained for it but can still do it easily, and we're still supposed to be surprised by this...".

And much as I'm wary of the implications of the force self balancing thing mentioned in TLJ, it does explain Rey's ability to match Kylo in lightsaber tug'o'war.

That's true. Lame, but true.

I'm really not seeing the whole Rey is the most naturally talent force user onscreen bit. Anakin as a pre-teen not only could win a podrace, but he took out the command ship of a blockading fleet only days later, without having any actual fighter pilot training. Luke, as a back woods dirt farmer, took out the first deathstar single handed within hours of having left his home planet for the first time and after only shown piloting a landspeeder. Rey has survived* a lightsaber duel and lightsaber tug'o'war with Darth Emo, and lifted a pile of rocks. Doesn't seem so terribly OP compartively.

I think being exceptional pilots is a Skywalker trait. I don't know that *every* Jedi or force-user is also an exceptional pilot. That's the Skywalkers. Which makes sense, because they are born of the Force (specifically Anakin, but then Luke is his son). It makes sense that people theorized that Rey might be a Skywalker because they are exceptional and so is she. But she's not a Skywalker, so why is she exceptional?

Anakin at least tells Qui-gon that he is a good pilot. It's because of the Force, but he's aware of his unique skill and trains in it. Rey has never piloted a ship, and when Finn asks her how she can pilot it so well she doesn't know.

The first time she pilots the Falcon, she's impressing everyone with her skills and taking out enemy TIE fighters with impossible maneuvers. Then she resists Kylo's mental intrusions before turning his power back against him! Then she pulls a Jedi Mind Trick out of nowhere. Then she pulls a lightsaber to her while Kylo Ren is trying to pull it to him. THEN she wields a lightsaber for the first time in her life and defeats a trained knight of the dark side. All while looking astonished at her own amazingness.

The question is why can she do these things? And the answer is that we're just giving her the powers of a Jedi Knight/Master as we feel like.

This isn't directed at anyone specifically but, you can't use the Skywalkers to justify Rey's exceptional feats, and then turn around and blame people for thinking she might be a Skywalker.

[Psyren]

I contend that you are not actually a space wizard and do not actually know this.

What this guy said.

*points to Luke Skywalker* That is our establishment of how this works. He is the son of the Chosen One and the best he can manage early on is some simple telekinesis.

And? "Son of Darth Vader" doesn't make him a savant. He had a lot of ability, certainly, but him needing more training that Rey means squat.

In fact, bloodlines don't matter as much as you think they do is literally the point of the new trilogy.

In formal training (scroll down to instruction), the Jedi start with the Training Drones so you can feel the Force move through you, and then they apparently move on to bigger things. So i was wrong, Telekenisis isn't dog paddling, its what is above dog paddling.

There is a formal training regimen for lots of things, including piano. There are also people who don't need it in order to make music. Many of those people were not descended from dynasties of prodigies either.

[Blackhawk748]

That's a good one, given how the film ends.

@MightyMosey: Throughout the entire scene we see Kylo slamming himself in the torso where he was show with a bowcaster to try and numb the pain (shown to be capable of taking people like five feet off the ground with it's shots). Adding onto this VERY BAD physical wound, the emotional damage of actually killing his father very easily removes any actual training at fighting. When you're that mentally unstable, on top of being that physically wounded, on top of just being an unstable person normally, who's fighting with a sword that isn't even actually working properly because you built it wrong, you're going to lose a fight with someone who's got some degree of competence, even if she's not inherently trained with the laser sword.

Also the last film will have Ren actually fighting at full power. Remember that the Last Jedi takes place over 18 hours. We don't see anyone but Rey actually sleep so we have no reason to assume Hux didn't force everyone to stay awake for that full 18 hours. And that's after Ren's had to kill his dad (though he's gotten over it, mostly) had to watch his Mom seemingly die (still kinda bothered by this but realizing it's okay to let the past die) and has to still be recovering from his wounds (though the doctors stitched the scars up at least).

Dude's running on fumes in Last Jedi, of course he's not gonna win outright. And for what it's worth his only actual fighting is after he takes out more of the red guards than Rey does, so that wore him down too.

Actually his lightsaber is built correctly, as thats what you do if you have an unstable crystal. Plus its actually decent for dueling as it has an advantage in the bind (as we saw).

There is no reason why Hux would keep everyone awake, cuz theres enough people onboard to work in shifts, cuz thats how the navy works.

And even if he's exhausted (which he very well may be) his saber fighting was just horrendous. I've watched drunken LARPers fight better than that. Though im putting that squarely on whoever the fight coordinator was for that and not the character, cuz i cannot believe that he would suddenly lose any skill he possessed in TFA.

And? "Son of Darth Vader" doesn't make him a savant. He had a lot of ability, certainly, but him needing more training that Rey means squat.

In fact, bloodlines don't matter as much as you think they do is literally the point of the new trilogy.

Word of god puts him at the most powerful Jedi ever. Full Stop.

[Psyren]

Word of god puts him at the most powerful Jedi ever. Full Stop.

His maximum potential and how strong he was untrained are unrelated, full stop.

[Sholos]

Okay - TPM. What training did Anakin receive prior to pod racing? An activity which, I'll remind you, humans canonically need Jedi reflexes to do.

Anakin does mention that he's been in races before, just never actually finished. So he has actual racing experience before the final pod race. Also, I'd say there's a difference between reacting to things happening and deliberately moving something. On a final note, remember that TPM caught a huge amount of flak for basically everything Anakin did, so that's not really a good place to go for comparison. It was bad writing then amd it's bad writing now.

[Mightymosy]

What this guy said.



And? "Son of Darth Vader" doesn't make him a savant. He had a lot of ability, certainly, but him needing more training that Rey means squat.

In fact, bloodlines don't matter as much as you think they do is literally the point of the new trilogy.

Actually, blood lines never were required in the first place.

Anakin was born without any special parents (well, ok, he had only his mother, but she wasn't force sensitive).

If the force can impregnate a mother with a highly force sensitive child, I have no problem at all believing the force can instill much force power into a "naturally" generated child.

In fact, I think that in the EU there were Jedi born to normal people all over the place.
Also, people with more "raw Jedi power" than Luke, I recall. But I'm not sure about that last part.

I just kinda assumed you had to learn stuff like lifting rocks, Jedi Mind Trick and lightsaber duels, because that's how it works in the real world and in the original trilogy.

I don't have a huge issue with people automatically knowing superpowers in fantasy stories, I just think both Phantom Menace and The Force Awakens could have been better if they showed Anakin and Rey slowly building up their abilities and eventually revealed their full potential.

Except Force: Remote Skype and Force: Astral Projection is there any Jedi spell Rey didn't use yet?
Oh right, Force choke.....well let's hope she skips that one

Not that I hate characters who start the film with full powers. Now that I heard you people talk about that awesome female alien Jedi: It's that Ahsoka chick, right? What can I watch that features hew? Clone Wars? Is it any good?

@LaZodiac: added some stuff about Chirrut in the last post if you're interested in that discussion.

[Chen]

Experienced, probably. Trained, however? No. There are good ways and bad ways and mediocre ways, safe ways and dangerous ways to do things, and whereas a formally-trained person theoretically has been taught to do things in the better and safer ways, there's nothing to say that the experienced but untrained person has learned the same things. Learning by experience teaches you to do what has worked in the past and to not do the things that have not worked. Nothing but your success says that the ways in which you have done things in the past are good or safe ways to do something.

That isn't to say that an untrained but experienced fighter is a worse ally or a less dangerous opponent than a trained martial artist, of course, but training and experience are neither completely interchangeable nor equivalent.

Even if she were martially trained with regular weapons I have to imagine it's going to translate VERY poorly to a super light, essentially infinitely sharp blade. Honestly, if she builds a Darth Maul type double bladed lightsaber due to her staff training realistically I'd expect her to severely injure herself if not outright kill herself when she tries using it like a staff.

[Blackhawk748]

Except Force: Remote Skype and Force: Astral Projection is there any Jedi spell Rey didn't use yet?
Oh right, Force choke.....well let's hope she skips that one

Not that I hate characters who start the film with full powers. Now that I heard you people talk about that awesome female alien Jedi: It's that Ahsoka chick, right? What can I watch that features hew? Clone Wars? Is it any good?

Oh theres plenty: Force Speed, Phase, Negate Energy, Dark Lightning, Repulse (not sure on this one), Farseeing (no i dont count Force Skype Call) and a bunch more im forgetting.

The Clone Wars is ok. It starts out very much like a kids show but it gets much better. Rebels is straight up superior though.

[LaZodiac]

Actually his lightsaber is built correctly, as thats what you do if you have an unstable crystal. Plus its actually decent for dueling as it has an advantage in the bind (as we saw).

There is no reason why Hux would keep everyone awake, cuz theres enough people onboard to work in shifts, cuz thats how the navy works.

And even if he's exhausted (which he very well may be) his saber fighting was just horrendous. I've watched drunken LARPers fight better than that. Though im putting that squarely on whoever the fight coordinator was for that and not the character, cuz i cannot believe that he would suddenly lose any skill he possessed in TFA.

I mean, using an unstable crystal makes the thing vent too much energy so he put the crossguards on to vent it out and makes use of it as crossguards. That's inherently "built wrong".

I feel like Hux and at least Ren would stay up for the full 18 hours, but fair.

Are you talking about in Force Awakens or Last Jedi with that last comment? Either way, I highly doubt that. Just straight up no, you haven't. I don't doubt you believe you have, but I find it incredibly hard to believe.

[Jayngfet]

For the record Chirrut isn't force sensitive. He isn't a Jedi and was mostly unrelated to them except in an academic sense. He's basically the film version of an SWRPG PC who hoarded all his force die and got really lucky. He had decades of combat training to supplant this, but not being able to actively use the force means that his decades of training make him equal to a younger Padawan.

Rey however has the training of neither a Padawan or a Guardian. Lightsaber combat is always treated as a highly complex thing you don't just pick up in a day. Luke spent about three years getting ready for his loss in Empire. There are lots of little tricks that are consistent between all media she doesn't know that Luke picked up by Endor.

Training with a Staff isn't really an equivalent skill except in the broadest sense. Yes, some skills may transfer, but they're very different tools.

[Psyren]

Anakin does mention that he's been in races before, just never actually finished. So he has actual racing experience before the final pod race.

I meant force training, not race training. The fact that he was in races before QG and OWK even got there and survived only proves the point further.

It was bad writing then amd it's bad writing now.

"Anakin has natural talent" is not one of TPM's problems. Again, child prodigies are a thing that exist in our world. Saying it's bad writing is like saying reality is badly written - makes no sense.

[Blackhawk748]

I mean, using an unstable crystal makes the thing vent too much energy so he put the crossguards on to vent it out and makes use of it as crossguards. That's inherently "built wrong".

I feel like Hux and at least Ren would stay up for the full 18 hours, but fair.

Are you talking about in Force Awakens or Last Jedi with that last comment? Either way, I highly doubt that. Just straight up no, you haven't. I don't doubt you believe you have, but I find it incredibly hard to believe.

Do you mean just using an unstable crystal in the first place? Cuz id agree with that, but he built it correctly as far as "thats what you do with an unstable crystal"

Hux may have, i was talking about the crew.

And apparently me specifying that i was talking about him during his last "battle" with Luke got lost in the ether of the internet. Cuz thats what i was referring too, that "fight" was terrible. He was actually good in the throne room brawl.

[LaZodiac]

For the record Chirrut isn't force sensitive. He isn't a Jedi and was mostly unrelated to them except in an academic sense. He's basically the film version of an SWRPG PC who hoarded all his force die and got really lucky. He had decades of combat training to supplant this, but not being able to actively use the force means that his decades of training make him equal to a younger Padawan.

Rey however has the training of neither a Padawan or a Guardian. Lightsaber combat is always treated as a highly complex thing you don't just pick up in a day. Luke spent about three years getting ready for his loss in Empire. There are lots of little tricks that are consistent between all media she doesn't know that Luke picked up by Endor.

Training with a Staff isn't really an equivalent skill except in the broadest sense. Yes, some skills may transfer, but they're very different tools.

I completely disagree on this. He's definitely force sensitive. He's to skilled to not be given he's blind. The fact that he wasn't trained as a Jedi is one of those "maybe the old order wasn't super good" things, especially given that as far as the religion goes he's a master of it.

[Mightymosy]

For the record Chirrut isn't force sensitive. He isn't a Jedi and was mostly unrelated to them except in an academic sense. He's basically the film version of an SWRPG PC who hoarded all his force die and got really lucky. He had decades of combat training to supplant this, but not being able to actively use the force means that his decades of training make him equal to a younger Padawan.

Rey however has the training of neither a Padawan or a Guardian. Lightsaber combat is always treated as a highly complex thing you don't just pick up in a day. Luke spent about three years getting ready for his loss in Empire. There are lots of little tricks that are consistent between all media she doesn't know that Luke picked up by Endor.

Training with a Staff isn't really an equivalent skill except in the broadest sense. Yes, some skills may transfer, but they're very different tools.

He wasn't?
Okay, now I really have to watch it again.
Here it says he's force-sensitive:
http://jedipedia.wikia.com/wiki/Chirrut_%C3%8Emwe

And that's how I remember it anyway. Wouldn't make sense how he could fight so well otherwise, so just assumed he was like a little force sensitive, but too weak to be a real Jedi. But maybe I made that up......I have to watch the movie again!

[Blackhawk748]

He wasn't?
Okay, now I really have to watch it again.
Here it says he's force-sensitive:
http://jedipedia.wikia.com/wiki/Chirrut_%C3%8Emwe

And that's how I remember it anyway. Wouldn't make sense how he could fight so well otherwise, so just assumed he was like a little force sensitive, but too weak to be a real Jedi. But maybe I made that up......I have to watch the movie again!

And that Wiki is wrong, as Wookiepeedia states that he is not Force Sensitive and has two sources to back it up. Look at Personality and Traits.

[LaZodiac]

Do you mean just using an unstable crystal in the first place? Cuz id agree with that, but he built it correctly as far as "thats what you do with an unstable crystal"

Hux may have, i was talking about the crew.

And apparently me specifying that i was talking about him during his last "battle" with Luke got lost in the ether of the internet. Cuz thats what i was referring too, that "fight" was terrible. He was actually good in the throne room brawl.

Yeah that's what I mean. Rebuild your ****ing sword you idiot.

Yup, that part was consumed by the void. I disagree because that fight wasn't a fight. Luke was just ****ing with him, you can't fight properly if the guy you're fighting isn't actually fighting back.

He wasn't?
Okay, now I really have to watch it again.
Here it says he's force-sensitive:
http://jedipedia.wikia.com/wiki/Chirrut_%C3%8Emwe

And that's how I remember it anyway. Wouldn't make sense how he could fight so well otherwise, so just assumed he was like a little force sensitive, but too weak to be a real Jedi. But maybe I made that up......I have to watch the movie again!

That force chant Chirut does is just him following the religion more closely than we've seen other characters do. It's why when his buddy takes that chant, but reverses it (reverseing the meaning but not the intent) is such a good cinematic moment. It rules!

[Blackhawk748]

Yeah that's what I mean. Rebuild your ****ing sword you idiot.

Yup, that part was consumed by the void. I disagree because that fight wasn't a fight. Luke was just ****ing with him, you can't fight properly if the guy you're fighting isn't actually fighting back.

I agree, he can even keep the crossguard.

Well we know that now, but he sure didnt. Seriously, he's swinging that lightsaber like its a baseball bat or something, he is so many kinds of wide open and he's telegraphing from years ago with those swings! Yes Luke was screwing with him, but Kylo fought like a drunk not someone who just murdilated 3 clearly skilled guards

And yes, you can fight properly if the other dude isnt fighting back, generally that means you kill him, or hes just a slippery sucker. In this case it was the second one, but that doesnt excuse Kylo's absolutely atrocious form.

[Sholos]

I meant force training, not race training. The fact that he was in races before QG and OWK even got there and survived only proves the point further.

You're missing my point, which was that Anakin having naturally heightened reflexes was the only way he was "using" the Force. That much doesn't require training (although learning to let the Force better guide your actions can lead to even better reflexes).

"Anakin has natural talent" is not one of TPM's problems. Again, child prodigies are a thing that exist in our world. Saying it's bad writing is like saying reality is badly written - makes no sense.

Well, you let me know how many children pick up a highly complex and technical skill in even a month after first being introduced to it and we'll have a starting point. And again, my point was that Anakin being capable at all of piloting a fighter was just dumb. The pod racer, fine. The fighter? No. And Rey makes Anakin look slow.

[LaZodiac]

I agree, he can even keep the crossguard.

Well we know that now, but he sure didnt. Seriously, he's swinging that lightsaber like its a baseball bat or something, he is so many kinds of wide open and he's telegraphing from years ago with those swings! Yes Luke was screwing with him, but Kylo fought like a drunk not someone who just murdilated 3 clearly skilled guards

And yes, you can fight properly if the other dude isnt fighting back, generally that means you kill him, or hes just a slippery sucker. In this case it was the second one, but that doesnt excuse Kylo's absolutely atrocious form.

I mean I immediately picked up on that Luke not being the real one. He's got different hair, he has his broken lightsaber only it works, the salt doesn't smudge or kick up when he moves. It's foreshadowed pretty hard.

To be fair to how Ren was fighting here; he just spent a solid like what, 3 minutes unloading gunfire into him and he's not even phased. Kylo's just real mad, and I can see that unbalancing his fighting style. Which I imagine will be part of what Rey does to get the upperhand on him during their next fight.

[Dr.Samurai]

When Darth Bane gets injured or upset, he is a force of nature in the Dark Side.

When Kylo gets injured or upset, he loses to untrained teens.

What an interesting character...

[Blackhawk748]

I mean I immediately picked up on that Luke not being the real one. He's got different hair, he has his broken lightsaber only it works, the salt doesn't smudge or kick up when he moves. It's foreshadowed pretty hard.

To be fair to how Ren was fighting here; he just spent a solid like what, 3 minutes unloading gunfire into him and he's not even phased. Kylo's just real mad, and I can see that unbalancing his fighting style. Which I imagine will be part of what Rey does to get the upperhand on him during their next fight.

I can see that, but i cant accept it, entirely because hes a Dark Side user and thats where he gets his power from. If he gets that sloppy when hes pissed, he cant be a proper darksider, cuz he'd be dead. On top of this, he was awful pissed in TFA and his attacks where better (still swung to wide but w/e), this was...just terrible. Like he forget literally everything he ever knew about fighting and just went all "Kylo SMASH!!!" which is not what a darksider does. (ok some have, but they're big muscly races anyway so it kinda works)

So as i see it we've got two options:

1. The fight was just badly choreographed. (which i can accept but it bothers me)
2. Kylo gets significantly worse at fighting the more pissed he gets, instead of a bigger threat as a dark sider should.

If its 2, that undermines him even more as a villain.

When Darth Bane gets injured or upset, he is a force of nature in the Dark Side.

When Kylo gets injured or upset, he loses to untrained teens.

What an interesting character...

You joke, but..ya. I mean, if its set up this way to show that he actually is a bad Dark Sider, this movie isn't exactly doing a great job of showing us this. I mean, i could sort of see it but, the dude is just to angry to not be a darksider. I was also really hoping for some Dark Rage. Shroud Kylo in black lightning and let him go to town with force enhanced swings. Cuz then he can be a lousy swordsman, cuz its all raw power backing it up.

[LaZodiac]

When Darth Bane gets injured or upset, he is a force of nature in the Dark Side.

When Kylo gets injured or upset, he loses to untrained teens.

What an interesting character...

I mean I find it interesting. How old is Ben meant to be? Like what, nearly 29ish? Dude doesn't have the life experience and is, as we've seen and talked about repeatedly, incredibly unstable.

[Mightymosy]

I completely disagree on this. He's definitely force sensitive. He's to skilled to not be given he's blind. The fact that he wasn't trained as a Jedi is one of those "maybe the old order wasn't super good" things, especially given that as far as the religion goes he's a master of it.

I'll certainly watch the movie again to see what it says.

But even if someone in the movie says he is not force sensitive, in my imagination he will always be. I'll just assume whoever says he's not is simply wrong, even if it's himself.
Just doesn't make much sense if he isn't at least a little in tune with the force, with how good he is in fights despite being blind.
Another explanation is that the force "answers" to his chants, like if the force is some kind of "divine force" that listens to prayers.

I can see that, but i cant accept it, entirely because hes a Dark Side user and thats where he gets his power from. If he gets that sloppy when hes pissed, he cant be a proper darksider, cuz he'd be dead. On top of this, he was awful pissed in TFA and his attacks where better (still swung to wide but w/e), this was...just terrible. Like he forget literally everything he ever knew about fighting and just went all "Kylo SMASH!!!" which is not what a darksider does. (ok some have, but they're big muscly races anyway so it kinda works)

So as i see it we've got two options:

1. The fight was just badly choreographed. (which i can accept but it bothers me)
2. Kylo gets significantly worse at fighting the more pissed he gets, instead of a bigger threat as a dark sider should.

If its 2, that undermines him even more as a villain.

Bad choreography was on the lesser sins of the movie if you ask me

Are you good at actual sword fighting, like as a sport?

[LaZodiac]

I'll certainly watch the movie again to see what it says.

But even if someone in the movie says he is not force sensitive, in my imagination he will always be. I'll just assume whoever says he's not is simply wrong, even if it's himself.
Just doesn't make much sense if he isn't at least a little in tune with the force, with how good he is in fights despite being blind.
Another explanation is that the force "answers" to his chants, like if the force is some kind of "divine force" that listens to prayers.

What they refer to him in the movie is, if I'm remembering entirely correctly, is that he's one of the wils, a non jedi allowed to live in the temples and take care of them as a custodian. Pass on our knowledge to the actual Jedis. Chirut is just super into it, and his gatling gun toting friend is his bodyguard that stuck around because Chirut stuck around. They're fantastic and I love them because that feels like the proper way to present the Force, to me. As something mystical and religious that you're experiencing, and getting help by when you call on it.