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Thread: I like alignment
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2012-04-27, 10:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I like alighnment
Originally Posted by moritheilOriginally Posted by Exemplars of Evil
They are not a blank cheque to slaughter innocents, and that is exactly what it means to indiscriminately destroy a city. Even a city of "Always Evil" creatures, by RAW has at least 5% of their population as non-Evil, plus children who are always presumed innocent.
A Neutral character might(!) get away with this kind of behavior if they showed remorse after being confronted with the tolls of their actions. In any of my campaigns, that is a one-way ticket to the Evil side of the pool.
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2012-04-27, 10:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I like alighnment
This is implying that law is intelligent than chaos isn't. Which is actually not true at all. You can follow the law and the codes of society, be as honest as Abe and still get worked up and emotional in combat
Also that is one, completely inhuman version of lawful in action.
Take one of my favorite fictional characters: Lucius Vorenus. He's a stoic, intelligent, believes in the old Roman laws above all else even what is actually beneficial to him.
He also can fly into some very murderous rages because he is in fact human, has emotion, and anyone can channel their anger into violence, it is rather easy. If I were to build him he would be Lawful Neutral, and would have a level of Barbarian (mixed admittedly with Warblade to get some White Raven maneuvers and Diplomacy skill he was a Senator).
Bards don't have to be chaotic. They can be neutral.
But seriously, the Bard's requirement is based on the traditional perception of artists as free spirits. I think a lot of DMs would be willing to give you an exception on the requirement if you want to play a lawful bard, but it misses the point of the class in my view.
Just have them be a Neutral Bard who became Lawful after they had to pay more attention to theory as a Virtuoso or Sublime Chord. It's less of a headache and keeps the flavor intact.Last edited by Dienekes; 2012-04-27 at 10:26 PM.
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2012-04-27, 10:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I like alighnment
And this is known by who? By the DM? Sure, the all-knowing DM has all the facts. By the players? Maybe, maybe not (plenty don't stop to think about such things.) By the character? No guarantees, there.
plus children who are always presumed innocent.
Some lawful evil villains have particular taboos, such as not killing in cold blood (but having underlings do it) or not letting children come to harm (if it can be helped). They imagine that these compunctions put them above unprincipled villains.
A Neutral character might(!) get away with this kind of behavior if they showed remorse after being confronted with the tolls of their actions. In any of my campaigns, that is a one-way ticket to the Evil side of the pool.
Now, I'm having to guess a bit about what this hypothetical elf does and does not believe to be true. I'm guessing in the most consistent way possible, because otherwise you're trying to pin an alignment to some sort of inconsistent madman, which may or may not even be doable (though it would mean I got the "Chaotic" part right.)
So: first item up, he believes strongly in doing good. He will lay his life down for his fellow elf because he can identify with his fellow elf as another person. This points to good.
Second item: he doesn't have any regard for nonelves (in this case, humans.) In trying to reconcile this with the first, I surmise that he has difficulty thinking of humans as sentient lifeforms. He does not acknowledge them as persons. In this he is very wrong, factually, but this offers an explanation consistent with his first trait. He can lay down his life for his fellow elf and raze cities of nonelves and have no conflict between the two because in his mind he is doing what is best for people. He is honestly trying to do good, as evinced by his willingness to sacrifice himself for even a stranger who is an elf. (This would be different if he was only willing to sacrifice for a fellow follower of the same deity, or part of the same family, or something - LEs can make that kind of sacrifice without blinking. But an LE won't sacrifice for an unaffiliated person.)
I can offer yet another explanation for this behavior, where the elf is a utilitarian: yes, it's terrible for humans to die, but it's also terrible if he doesn't prevent some tragedy that will happen if he doesn't raze the city. (This is how the eldar work in 40k.) So he's really just choosing which group gets to die, and sooner over later.
Obviously, you can make your own interpretation of this elf that doesn't give him the benefit of the doubt but instead argues that he willingly slaughters innocents. Neither this interpretation nor my interpretation above is better or more accurate, because this information is missing from the original post. That's why I said, "I see an argument for him being CG," not, "he is absolutely CG." I wrote that he could be CG. But it depends on what he really believes, which we don't know. We are forced to guess by limited information.
Aside: how literally do we interpret "life" here? Do you think it would make a human being evil to be willing to kill, say, an ants' nest in order to build an orphans' shelter? Strictly by RAW, that human is no more and no less evil than a mass murderer.
Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit.
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2012-04-27, 10:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I like alighnment
Like Vitruviansquid, you appear to have a concept of What D&D Alignment Is that is untainted by any D&D book's actual words on the subject.
That would probably be why Water_Bear is right and you're wrong.
"Separating this completely from real-world concepts of morality" will not lead you anywhere useful, where D&D alignment is concerned.
Repeating that an elf who doesn't value human life can be good "by RAW" doesn't change the simple fact that the briefest glance into the relevant section of the Player's Handbook should tell anyone that RAW permits nothing of the sort.
Above, I suggest that the point of differentiation is how the character recognizes the situation, but I suppose there are other ways of doing it too.Last edited by Kish; 2012-04-27 at 10:38 PM.
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2012-04-27, 10:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I like alighnment
RAW, every time you step on an ant, or your fireball sails off into the bush and kills plants, you are committing an act morally indistinguishable from slaughtering orphans. That's RAW, right there. RAW only looks at "life." I quoted it. So if you want to take that to its logical conclusion, that would mean like 99% of the world commits evil acts on a regular basis, because they can't help it. (Do you kill things and eat them, or benefit from the killing of things so that you can eat? Yes? By strict RAW, you are evil.)
My solution is to note that factual accuracy is also something that the character can't necessarily help, and look at what the character intended. As I said, you can come up with other ways of breaking the deadlock. Neither are technically right by RAW, because they aren't RAW.
That would probably be why Water_Bear is right and you're wrong.
"Separating this completely from real-world concepts of morality" will not lead you anywhere useful, where D&D alignment is concerned.
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2012-04-27, 10:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I like alighnment
This thread has quickly become an example of why alignment is bad.
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2012-04-27, 10:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I like alighnment
Interesting claim you're making there. Either you're saying that there is only one word, of one syllable, in all the D&D books, about the alignment system...or you're claiming to be able to prove a negative. More than that, a negative existence of words which actually exist inches away from the word "life" which you're taking out of context.
That would be why Water_Bear responds strongly to my post, and you share his bias, so your knee-jerk response is that he must be right and I must be wrong.
I firmly disagree.Last edited by Kish; 2012-04-27 at 10:53 PM.
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2012-04-27, 10:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I like alighnment
I take offense to the implication that only a lawful warrior can be cool and calculating, or that a chaotic one must fly into a mindless rage.
I'll begin by saying that my alignment is essentially established, both by myself, friends (and enemies), and various tests (in short, it's as concrete as possible). However, I'm curious what you make of it; give me your best guess.
Firstly, I'm a musician. I probably play music for about four hours any given day- both at professional gigs, and playing for the hell of it. I compose music not dissimilar to Stravinsky, and do so with absolutely no regard for any modern (or classical) conventions. I've variously learned nearly half a dozen instruments for no reason beyond it sounding fun. However, I also fence (the sport, not the lawn care). And when I fence, I focus completely on that. I'm strategizing almost faster than I can consciously perceive- certainly faster than my opponent usually can. I fight with precision and intelligence, utilizing all of the drills taught to me. I'd be insulted if anyone implied that emotion entered into my mind as I fought.
So, tell me. Am I lawful, or chaotic, or neutral? Which pigeonhole am I best suited for?Avatar by Babale.
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2012-04-27, 10:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I like alighnment
Most of the problem with the alignment system is some people want to play out their violent psychopathic fantasies (some hyperbole but not entirely) yet resent their character would be labeled Evil. In less obviousness but part of the same point, Lawful Good is subconsciously considered the epitome of being The One True Way, The Righteous, The Hero, but resentment is there when told their actions is not Lawful Good either because they want to be called Lawful Good when they're not or despise that Lawful Good is considered such Righteousness in the first place such that because they're not Lawful Good and they know they're not they hate being considered lesser beings because of it.
The resentment is there because players inherently have their own real life morals and ethics which are The One True Way for them, and when such philosophy wouldn't be Lawful Good in D&D terms they blame the alignment system as broken.
The rest of the problem is those who use the alignment system as a straight jacket/get out of jail free card. Straight jacket are for those who use alignment to dictate behavior with no deviation and punish you for not playing correctly and get out of jail free card for those who are jerks and use their character's alignment as justification to play a donkey cavity female hygiene product sack of feces.
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2012-04-27, 10:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I like alighnment
I'd rather say that this thread has quickly become an example of why people wanting other people to play the game the way they play it is bad.
Neither thing. I merely point out the difficulties presented by the alignment system in reconciling that statement - difficulties which can be overcome by interpreting the rules a certain consistent way. I acknowledged, early on, that there were other interpretations, but I don't think that this interpretation is unworkable; thus, it's legitimate.
No, see--I say that he's right and you're wrong because you're saying that "Rules As Written" support something that they plainly don't. "Cold is better for cooking food than heat!"=wrong. As simple as that.
See, if you think "obviously cold can't be better for cooking food than heat" is a tenet that does not need to be stated, then that constitutes something you aren't able to suspend disbelief about. But we even have real world examples of cold cooking, so is it so unreasonable to say that in a fantasy world that could be the norm and that cold COULD be better than heat for cooking? I'd say that your assertion "cooking=heat" is an excellent example of how if you're not careful you wind up dragging preconceptions into things.
Yes, I got that you disagree that the book says what it says.
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2012-04-27, 11:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I like alighnment
I may have been overly confrontational before, so I'm going to say this first; I did not mean to insult you, or anyone else, when I said that razing a city is mass murder and an evil action in D&D. I will try to be more even-tempered in my explanation below.
It is an Evil action to kill an innocent being indiscriminately. This ought to be evident based on the PHB description, but if not then I direct you to the Book of Exalted Deeds, Book of Vile Darkness, Champions of Ruin, Champions of Valor, and Exemplars of Evil.
The description "Always X" explicitly means that ~95% of the population has that alignment, but the rest have other alignments. I think we can agree that non-Evil and Good NPCs are Innocent in a cosmic sense, and that children should logically be lumped in with them as (with rare exceptions like Unholy Scions) they don't have the ability to commit evil and arguably do not get alignments at all until the age of majority.
With regards to the "incorrect beliefs" argument, where the perpetrator doesn't know that the people they kill "count," the fact is that characters should be expected to know better. As my earlier Exemplars of Evil quote shows, and is found elsewhere, bigotry is considered a minor Evil act in D&D and acting on that hatred is a heinous act of violation and evil.
So, with that reasoning, burning down a city of intelligent beings is going to be a heinous act even without considering the sheer suffering such an act would cause. Just the fact that you are killing those 5% of non-Evil adults and 99.99% of Innocent children is more than enough to say it is something which displays a lack of respect for the life and dignity of others.
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2012-04-27, 11:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I like alighnment
Yes, I do agree! But here is where I think you (and possibly your supporter) missed my point - that term, innocent, is not well defined! Kids are not defined as innocent, and the RAW even goes so far as to suggest that sparing kids so as to not murder innocents is a delusion of villains that makes them think that they are less evil. Slaughtering baby red dragon hatchlings, in many interpretations, is a good and noble act, and the RAW doesn't contradict that except in BOED (which presents alternate rules for redeeming things that are irredeemable in core.)
The description "Always X" explicitly means that ~95% of the population has that alignment, but the rest have other alignments. I think we can agree that non-Evil and Good NPCs are Innocent in a cosmic sense, and that children should logically be lumped in with them as (with rare exceptions like Unholy Scions) they don't have the ability to commit evil and arguably do not get alignments at all until the age of majority.
If you want to define kids as innocent, you are free to do so - in your own campaigns. And other people are free to define them as automatically guilty, or neutral, or whatever they want. RAW does not define innocence. Therefore a campaign where human paladins descend on a goblin encampment and slaughter everyone without troubling their alignment (much like the OOTS storyline itself) falls within acceptable interpretations of RAW.
With regards to the "incorrect beliefs" argument, where the perpetrator doesn't know that the people they kill "count," the fact is that characters should be expected to know better.
As my earlier Exemplars of Evil quote shows, and is found elsewhere, bigotry is considered a minor Evil act in D&D and acting on that hatred is a heinous act of violation and evil.
So, with that reasoning, burning down a city of intelligent beings is going to be a heinous act even without considering the sheer suffering such an act would cause. Just the fact that you are killing those 5% of non-Evil adults and 99.99% of Innocent children is more than enough to say it is something which displays a lack of respect for the life and dignity of others.
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2012-04-27, 11:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I like alighnment
And this is the point at which I generally tell people that it's just an abstract system of rules made to categorize characters and tell us how they interact with spells. Actual people are complex enough to give such a system fits. Thus, I am an advocate for mentally replacing "good" and "evil" with "blue team, red team."
You're right, but I think it's even more fundamental than that. The question I would say this hinges on is, does something have to make sense to us in order to be true? Because some people can handle a nonsensical world, and some people really can't. Their games are going to be different.
Personally, I feel a lot of results that DnD spits out at us, or asks us to accept, make no sense. (Fireballs produce tremendous heat, but no pressure change? Come on.) This is where willingness to suspend your own ideas about reality comes into play. People react to that absurdity differently, and can tolerate different amounts in different places. How you or I react to that absurdity may put us at odds with how other people feel things should be handled.
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2012-04-27, 11:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I like alighnment
yep. a practice known as badwrongfun.
wow! that's cool as hell! thanks for posting that.
with all of the things that others have mentioned, the standard for alignment threads, I wanted to mention something that has always been a problem for me with alignment and I never see brought up.
there doesn't really exist RAW any sort of degree for alignment. I forget which splat, but one of the books says that an inkeep who waters down his beer is NE (I think)
so, between him and say, for example, a mind flayer, who is more NE? well, going by RAW, neither of them.
I'm not saying that they need to introduce a 100 point scale or anything, just that it seems to be a sort of problem, especially since some books, like the fiendish codices show how an alignment can shift with certain acts. how do you know what your starting point is?
again, I'm not saying that these questions have (or need) an answer, just that with the system as-is, they can't really have one derived.
personally, in my games, I try not to make alignment a big deal. as you'd imagine, neither I nor my players notice anything missing.I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
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2012-04-27, 11:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I like alighnment
Palomides in Le Morte d'Arthur is a Saracen knight that serves under Arthur. Moors were integrated in medieval culture throughout just about the entire period. The actual crusades, which the Song of Roland is connected to? Much of the first one consisted of Crusader states were allying with Islamic states* to fight other crusader states and Islamic states were allying with crusader states to fight other Islamic states. The third involved the fall of the Fatimid dynasty at the hands of other states and internal forces. Actual history isn't so simple, and assuming that actual medieval people always thought of things in black and white with no consideration of nuance is incredibly inaccurate. Nuance was lost in much of the literature, and yet to a large extent it is still there - look at Le Morte d'Arthur, and the conflict between Lancelot and Gawain. Nobody is really positioned as Good or Evil, both are sympathetic, and the reason they conflict is due to the characters being developed.
As such, that particular argument collapses. If you want to argue that alignment works well representing the shallow understanding of the middle ages largely inferred from Renaissance works where Renaissance historians tried to make themselves look better by trashing the period, then fine, do so. That holds up perfectly. However, I, for one, would prefer not to argue that something is fine because it resembles a group the way another group painted them in immensely self aggrandizing works.I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
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2012-04-27, 11:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I like alighnment
Just going to point out here, you DO get varying shades of evil when you use Detect Evil, as showcased in the "Aura of Good/Aura of Evil" descriptors.
This, of course, is based entirely on hit die, and not on actual evil acts at all, (Aside from that an Evil cleric is going to glow more evil than an evil barbarian, presumably because of his link to higher evils)
but you as a paladin can see "This is a very weak evil aura" (Lv 1 evil commoner) as opposed to "This evil aura is overwhelming!" (Balor)
If the paladin strikes an unarmed civilian who is not in the process of an evil act, he's going to fall, regardless of that civilian's alignment. (It's in the paladin code)
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2012-04-28, 12:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I like alighnment
Not necessarily true. If the inn keeper has at least 11 HD, then he is more evil than the 8HD mind flayer. The mind flayer is faintly evil under a detect evil spell, whereas the 11HD inn keeper is moderately evil.
And curse forum lag...
That's ok. The Paladin can just walk into the barkeeper's establishment during business hours and smite him without a problem.
Alignment is fun!Last edited by Deophaun; 2012-04-28 at 12:27 AM.
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2012-04-28, 12:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I like alighnment
you are right, but that's exactly was what I was talking about. say there's a 12th lvl character who's commited a few petty evil acts, just enough to push him over the E threshold versus say a level 6 evil paladin of some sort who has devoted his life to moustache twirling acts of senseless meanness.
the "strength" of their alignment, so to speak, is, as you said, based on character level rather than their actual (alignment) acts. do you get "more" LG/CE/etc as you level up? well, not necessarily, no.
that's exactly my point though. watering down your beer is not worse than taking prisoners and using them for slave labor and eugenics experiments. this more than the other stuff has been alignment's biggest failing for me.Last edited by Venger; 2012-04-28 at 12:27 AM.
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2012-04-28, 12:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-04-28, 12:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I like alighnment
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2012-04-28, 12:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I like alighnment
Well, if you're a Dwarven paladin, watering down beer could very well be a smiteworthy offense.
As far as I'm conserned, the alignment system is really only missing two things:
1: a standard system of measurement. This is currently left up to the DM, and you get all kinds of things from alignment rubberbanding to detect-and-die campaigns.
2: it is easier to be evil than good. The writers expected players to be "Good guys", and while they opened up the OPTION to be (Or become) Evil, it was seen as undesireable to do so.
Neutral should be the "Easy" alignment. Good and Evil require dedication to principals and goals, and constant drive towards them. Law and Chaos the same.
As far as the hit dice thing goes, it is a flaw, but I can see why they did it that way. Bubs the lv 1 Evil Commoner might kick a dog. That matters to Bubs and the Dog. If Bubs kicked a Cat, bubs would die.
Phil the Bandit Lord is a lv 6 Rogue. He's a big bad dude, not the kind of guy even the local Law enforcement wants to take on. His evil acts effect an entire community, but probably just in one area. The Kingdom can still rally up a squad of knights to deal with him, and a suitably large angry mob can take him down.
James the lv 12 Evil Cleric is capable of purpetraiting evil acts all across the country, and if he REALLY tries at it, the globe. There might be 3-4 NPCs capable of taking him on in the whole world. He is a serious threat that affects entire nations. Rallying groups to oppose him is difficult, and he's going to be causing some serious damage and take a long time to actually bring down.
Frank the lv 17 Evil wizard is going around killing gods. His evil acts effect the entire multiverse. He could easilly conquer an entire plane, and if he put any effort into it at all, you'd need direct divine intervention in order to slow him down. Stopping him would require an overdeity, and so long as there's evil gods in the pantheon, too, you're unlikely to see that happen.
Rallying adventurers to oppose Frank is going to be a very difficult prospect, as he's liable to hear about it and kill you before you ever actually pose a threat. Frank is a Big Bad Evil Guy.
The reason Detect Evil works off of hit dice, is because of how big an impact your evil actions create. If you're a normally-good adventurer, who hit level 12 and started doing evil things, nobody's going to care about that kitten you saved last week, they're going to care more about that trade ship you just burned down, causing food scarcity and riots in another city.
Now, most DMs don't actually transition your theatre of operations based on level. They are supposed to, but there's no hard rule saying "This is the level where PCs step up to heroes of the town, heroes of the country, heroes of the plane" and you'll normally see adventurers running around at lv 12 with the same horse-drawn wagon full of stuff they had at lv 6. This is -Because that's easy-, and is in itself a -Neutral- act. Good and Evil adventurers should be constantly striving to make a change to the world. Same with Law/Chaos.
Of course, that's *My* opinion as a DM, and without an objective alignment measurement system, it only applies to my games.
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2012-04-28, 01:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I like alighnment
I'd really like to see more of your color wheel theory. Also, have you given any thought to how a M:tG rpg would work? 'cause I'd like to see your interpretation of that, too.
--
On alignment:
The main problem I have with alignment is that the system is conceptually loose but mechanically strict.
Conceptually, good and evil and lawful and chaotic are not terms which we as players have a clear or even mutual understanding of. Individuals might have their own ideas, and individual groups might share commonality of thought, but as a community? Not so much. Well, maybe that doesn't matter. Some vague, loose, and sometimes contradictory or nonsensical ideas on alignment might not be a problem. I mean, it's not like it actually has an in-game effect, right?
...oh.
Mechanically, alignment is strict. Different spells and abilities have different effects on characters of different alignments. Certain classes can lose abilities if their alignment changes. Certain classes are not even an option for characters of specific alignments. Suddenly, players have incentive to be this alignment or that alignment. They have penalties for being the wrong alignment. Now, it is profitable for players to take alignment seriously, because alignment questions have serious consequences. When alignment isn't clearly defined, but has clear consequences, that's a foundation for conflict.
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2012-04-28, 01:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I like alighnment
It would work extremely poorly and to the complete displeasure of those who enjoy either M:tG, RPGs, or both.
That being said, setting a game in an M:tG world, which is not the same thing, might work out. In a lot of cases the worlds themselves have gotten away from a lot of the flavor that would limit them from translating to other systems or at least make it very annoying to do so (such as drawing mana from land). For example, you could probably run Ravnica in 3.5 or Legend with zero fuss as long as you're willing to re-skin a few things.
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2012-04-28, 02:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I like alighnment
It's in the BoED, in various references that state that its evil to "go to war" with evil creatures when you have no evidence of actual wrongdoing, and to target non-combatants during a justified war against evil.
It's in Eberron Campaign Setting where it states that not every Evil creature deserves to be attacked by adventurers (the examples given were an innkeeper and a lawyer)
It's in Dragon Magazine 358: August 2007: Paladin Guide (page 93)
"Any violent acts the paladin undertakes must be motivated by good intentions and undertaken in such a way as to minimise damage (a paladin may not slay every evil creature she sees in the hopes of preventing future violence). She cannot levy violence against noncombatants, children, or helpless creatures, even evil ones"
But oddly, the PHB doesn't say much about it. In fact, some people could interpret "punish those that harm or threaten innocents" as allowing killing as a punishment even if it took place in the past and the person you want to punish is unarmed and unthreatening to anyone right now.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2012-04-28, 08:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I like alighnment
OK, first off, i love the alignment system. it offers a framework to roleplay your character.
A few problems do exist with ti (but hey, what doesn't have problems in dnd 3.5). 1) people thi the alignment is static and guiding. Im my opinion alignment is flexible. a shift in alignment because of in game actions for me counts as character growth. 2) people think alignment is limiting and in it's binary nature inhibits people to take actions, Im my opinion, a character acts and it's alignment represents the nature of the last few actions a character makes. Exceptions to this rule are paladins and exalted characters. they are obviously influenced in their alignment, but they are also the epitome of good (works for the evil sides too, they are the paragons of a certain alignment). alignment, when used well, can offer a guideline on how to act when you have a certain alignment. It give you a hand in how a character of comparable alignemnt acts, it doesnt tell you directly how to behave. 3) aligment justifies certain acts. again, except for paladins who actually have abilities to discern and eradicate evil, alignment does nog justify a genocidal action against a certain group of certain aligned people. In simpler words, no it si nog ok to justify murder by "he was evil, duh" or any comparable excuse. However, it should make it easier to atone for sins agaisnt those people when it happens. 4) peopel think alignment is absolute. No, alignment is subjective. if you are good aligned, evil people are compared to you evil. Whe you are neutral aligned, evil is comparably less evil then in the example before. Evil in the last example is just a person who cares a bit less about the baclash of certain ections then a neutral character.
I know some things I said have allready been said, but it's ahrd to give change of half a copper piece on 2 cpWarlock Poetry?
Or ways to use me in game?
Better grab a drink...
Currently ruining Strahd's day - Avatar by the Outstanding Smuchsmuch
First Ordained Jr. Tormlet by LoyalPaladin
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2012-04-28, 09:06 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
Re: I like alighnment
I think the alignment system has its merits, as long as you see it as a continuum rather than a straighjacket. Many of my characters border two or more alignments, and that's okay.
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2012-04-28, 09:48 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2005
- Location
- Denmark
- Gender
Re: I like alighnment
No, the relevant sections of the Player's Handbook permits exactly that.
Look on page 103, the right-hand column, and read the last paragraph. Specifically focus on how "few people are completely consistent". An otherwise Good elf can remain Good while not placing any value on human life, because being Good does not necessarily mean you are Good in every aspect of who you are.
Likewise, an otherwise Evil character can have traits more commonly associated with Good, such as caring for orphans, the poor, the outcasts. Raistlin Majere is an example of just such a character.
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2012-04-28, 11:01 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2012
- Location
- NY, USA
- Gender
Re: I like alighnment
Look, I get that people want the rules to be unambiguous and clear, and that its fun to see what you can allow under the exact wording of the rules.
But really, come on.
Is it Good, by any definition of that word, to stab babies? Especially when D&D makes it abundantly clear that there is no guarantee, even with Evil Outsiders, that they will become monsters?
The various alignment source-books are filled with examples of Good behavior being merciful and respectful of non-Evil life, and repeatedly urge against Detect-and-Smite behavior.
And what does it say about us as a hobby if we need to told explicitly that killing children is wrong? Maybe it's just me, but my group usually just rules off infanticide right off the bat. I feel like I've wandered into an Anti-D&D Chick Tract or something...
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2012-04-28, 11:10 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
- Location
- Texas
- Gender
I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!
Iron Chef Medals!
Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition
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2012-04-28, 12:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2011
Re: I like alighnment
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