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Thread: Disintegrate: A Motif?
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2013-09-10, 07:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Disintegrate: A Motif?
I've noticed that Disintegrate has a tendency to crop up during significant plot events, particularly those relating to V or Redcloak. Do you think this was intentional?
The Rise and Fall of Darth Vaarsuvius:- #186: V plants the seeds for the Ancient Black Dragon's revenge
- #437: V's failure to defend Azure City (including his/her inability to defeat the death knight) played a big role in V's descent to madness (I'll admit this one's a stretch, but I'm including it for completion's sake)
- #595
- #625
- #626
- #636/#637
- #640
- #653: When Disintegrate fails, the Soul Splice ends
Redcloak:- In Start of Darkness (major spoilers)SpoilerRedcloak casts Disintegrate to kill Right-Eye
- #480: Redcloak's conquest of Azure City is complete, as the new leader topples the old
- #655: As with Darth V, when it fails to do any significant damage, so too does the caster fail (losing the phylactery and becoming Wrong-Eye)
- #831: Redcloak begins his fauxlactery scheme
- #900: Again, we have the "failure" of the spell (though Roy seems to have failed his Fortitude save, it didn't lead to his defeat or anything) and the caster's failure to capture a Gate and control Xykon (this one's a stretch, too)
Other:- #200/#201: #200 and Miko's introduction was obviously meant to be a Big Deal that dramatically changed the course of the Order's adventure
- #914: Laurin uses Psionic Disintegrate to lay the final Nale in the coffin
What does it all mean???
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2013-09-10, 07:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Disintegrate: A Motif?
Outside of the fact that disintegrate a powerful spell and thus likely to be used in serious situations, I don't think there's any motif going on.
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2013-09-10, 07:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-09-10, 07:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Disintegrate: A Motif?
I think it's more of a practical thing than a metaphorical thing.
You don't cast it unless you're trying to destroy someone completely and deny them a chance to be revived. There's also the element of the spell treating a corpse--depending on the situation or context, it can be a gesture of desecration (denying them a proper burial) or reverence (sending them off through cremation).
It's kind of a severe spell, so it's mainly used in severe situations, and usually by morally dubious characters.Last edited by Talvereaux; 2013-09-10 at 07:37 PM. Reason: grammar
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2013-09-10, 07:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-09-10, 07:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Disintegrate: A Motif?
Perhaps it's related to the "Magic Can Solve Anything" problem. "Why didn't Wizard do A to kill B?" "If Author wanted B to die, Disintegrate would have worked." A "failed" Disintegration indicates that Character B isn't set to die yet. Likewise, a "successful" Disintegration indicates that Character B is dead, end of arc.
So, Kubota: Dead. Very, very dead. Also gave us some nice characterization for V.
Roy, this arc: Not so dead. Probably won't die.
Redcloak, end of Azure City arc: Not dead. High Cleric of the Sapphire Guild, and presence in Azure City he represents: Dead.
O-Chul: Survives multiple Disintegrates. Very, very clearly not dead yet, likely to come back.
Nale: This one's kinda wiggy. If I'm right, which I might not be, then we won't see any more from him for the story. On the other hand, I'm not sure that Nale doesn't have any more characterization for Rich to show. On a weird mutated third hand that just popped up, perhaps the "forced" Disintegration is similar to Tarquin's attempt at "forcing" the narrative to bend to his will, but the plot can't be tricked like that...
Narratively speaking, surviving Disintegrate is more powerful than having a name: It's the Plot's way of saying "You're not done yet."
Maybe.
That, or the Giant really likes taking things' derivatives.I guess sometimes it's more interesting to accept a mistake and go with it.
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2013-09-10, 07:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Disintegrate: A Motif?
well you could say that Disintegrate is representative of cold, calculating ruthlessness and efficiency, given that both V and Redcloak are highly logical people, and are therefore the kind of people who choose such a spell. not a motif, but its definitely a way to show similarities in characters.
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2013-09-10, 07:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Disintegrate: A Motif?
I like it and this thread, but what kind of time limit would you give for how much longer they live? Of course if someone lives through it then they're not dead, and thus not "done yet," but I'm not sure if it's necessarily giving them plot armor. Yes, O-Chul survived a lot, but I can't imagine that would mean that O-Chul's next assignment does not put him in serious mortal danger from Xykon.
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2013-09-10, 08:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Disintegrate: A Motif?
A successful Disintegrate spell does some of the best damage in the game, 2d6 instead of 1d6 per level. It's a Fortitude save that can affect objects, meaning it can hit undead and constructs, both of whom have crummy Fort Saves.
It's no more significant than Durkon using Thor's Might.
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2013-09-10, 08:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Disintegrate: A Motif?
What makes you think Roy failed his save against Redcloak's disintegrate spell?
I'm pretty sure that even Roy can't survive 34d6 damage unless Redcloak rolled absolutely terribly.
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2013-09-10, 08:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Disintegrate: A Motif?
It averages at 119 points of damage if my math is correct. Roy could probably take it, even if it would put him close to single digits. But I agree that he likely saved through it, as a fighter he likely has a good fort save and the wounds he received don't look close to fatal.
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2013-09-10, 09:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Disintegrate: A Motif?
I'd say it probably lasts for the character's current arc, or at least until their next big "Character Development Moment." So, Tsukiko would've survived a Wand of Disintegration used by Haley during the Azure Rebellion arc, even with an abominable "natural" Fort save. Then Tsukie had her big character thing with Redcloak, and that's all that really needed to be said for her, so all bets were off. Of course, Red needed his own character development, too, so we got an awesome seen with some wights instead of one-shot in the night.
O-Chul still has character development along with MitD, so he's probably safe until that happens. While a final character-moment with the Monster may involve Mr. Stiffly's unfortunate demise, he's still a valuable tool for showing what a "human ideal of Law and Good" is supposed to be, so Rich may be able to say more with him living than dying. Then again, that may just be my personal hope talking.I guess sometimes it's more interesting to accept a mistake and go with it.
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2013-09-10, 09:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Disintegrate: A Motif?
Disintegrate is a overall damage spell.
2d6 per caster level.
Sure, it has a save and SR. But, in the comic, nobody is really that optimized and no-save spells
and the coolness effect.
"poof you're dead"
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2013-09-10, 10:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Disintegrate: A Motif?
I would say that it indicates that things are very serious, and the casters are starting to pull out all stops. They're starting to use the heavy hitting spells rather than conserving them..
Last edited by Bulldog Psion; 2013-09-10 at 10:28 PM.
Spoiler
So the song runs on, with shift and change,
Through the years that have no name,
And the late notes soar to a higher range,
But the theme is still the same.
Man's battle-cry and the guns' reply
Blend in with the old, old rhyme
That was traced in the score of the strata marks
While millenniums winked like campfire sparks
Down the winds of unguessed time. -- 4th Stanza, The Bad Lands, Badger Clark
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2013-09-10, 10:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Disintegrate: A Motif?
It's the threat of permanent death. Not only the dramatic tension, but the fact that it's almost illogical to use any other spell to dispatch an enemy who's known to have friends who could locate and raise them. The story can only tolerate a certain number of recurring villains before they begin killing eachother off.
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2013-09-10, 10:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-09-10, 10:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Disintegrate: A Motif?
Hmm for some reason I was thinking motif meant collage.
Because if someone were to make a collage of all those people getting disintegrated in OotS, it would be pretty awesome.
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2013-09-10, 10:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Disintegrate: A Motif?
Sorry There was an earlier one, but it was just the back of V's head. It could have been an elaborate dummy.
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2013-09-10, 11:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Disintegrate: A Motif?
wait... what if the goblin cleric was actually an illusion to lure Belkar away from the casters so taht Redcloak could "paralyze" V and noone would know it was a fake? since V spent the whole time unable to move?
V only became able to move after Redcloak escaped afterall when he could start doing the double life again
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2013-09-10, 11:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Disintegrate: A Motif?
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2013-09-11, 10:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Disintegrate: A Motif?
heh heh, "final nale in the coffin"
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2013-09-11, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Disintegrate: A Motif?
Disintegrate is a useful spell, it deals lots of damage. Not only, it is a versatile spell. If you could just use to kill people, than it would be a weak version of finger of death. But you can also use it against undeads and other stuff immune to death effects. or you can use it to punch a hole in a wall, to get rid of a corpse, or whatever. So it is normal that it would get used a lot by those capable of using it.
But, more important, it is good story-wise. "disintegrate!", a ray of energy shooting out of a finger, the target crumbling to dust or taking heavy wounds is something even someone with no knowledge of D&D can understand. Never forget that rich is trying to make something that can be understood by non-geeks, so more obscure spells would not work as well.
Second, disintegrate can deal plenty of damage to anyone, or it can do little damage, or it can miss completely, and all of it can be shown on screen. In optimized D&D the most useful spells are the save or die effects, but those are quite boring to show in comic. Showing an effect that kills or does nothing depending on the roll of a dice is just not good for dramatic purpose. that's why redcloak uses disintegrate despite having acces to the more powerful destruction, and V uses it instead of finger of death.In memory of Evisceratus: he dreamed of a better world, but he lacked the class levels to make the dream come true.
Ridiculous monsters you won't take seriously even as they disembowel you
my take on the highly skilled professional: the specialized expert
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2013-09-11, 12:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Disintegrate: A Motif?
Fun side-bit: I once took Leadership so our high-level party could get easy global transportation via my Sorcerer cohort. I had him know "Disintegrate" entirely for the purpose of removing ten foot cubes of material to make travel easier. And I think that's pretty much all we used it for, too. (Had to get around a Prismatic Wall, couldn't see what was on the other side, or something like that. I don't entirely recall.)
I guess sometimes it's more interesting to accept a mistake and go with it.
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2013-09-11, 12:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Disintegrate: A Motif?
For old school D&D players, the Disintegrate spell did "infinite damage" on a failed save. So it was incredibly intimidating at all times.
The other not nice thing about it is it is single target. You. I want YOU dead.
I like King of Nowere's point: yes, it looks creepy and dangerous in a way that Finger of Death does not, whether it kills or does not kill.
On the practical adventuring side, it has a lot of utility uses that other offensive spells do not. In particular, a spell like Wall of Force or Forcecage, used cleverly, is often lethal to PCs unless you have the right countermeasures (DDoor/Teleport or Disintegrate).I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos. But I am going double or nothing that Durkon will be casting 8th level spells at the big finale.
I bet Goblin_Priest 5 quatloos that Xykon does not know RC has the phylactery at this point in the tale (#1139).
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of Belkar...so close!
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of goblinkind!
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2013-09-11, 12:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Disintegrate: A Motif?
Oh yes.
For this reason in particular: Disintegrate has the same dramatic effect that using a gun to shoot someone in a movie/TV series does. It is a direct manifestation of one character's killing intent.
It's a symbolic way to say "you, I want you dead, and you are dead", which is a very powerful narrative statement. And it's dramatic.
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2013-09-11, 12:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Disintegrate: A Motif?
I don't understand why people are saying "duhh it's a really good spell of course people are using it all the time" when this is primarily a story, not a D&D game. It's implying that because of the mechanics of the setting that doing any thematic analysis on it whatsoever is moot, which is clearly ridiculous.
SpoilerOn behalf of YoSaffBridge, a collected gent who also hails from the UK, I would like to apologize for the time (times?) he told your lovely children that they were possessed by El Diablo. He has his own issues to work out, and occasionally suffers from the honest delusion that small children are demons. Plus, he’s a bastard. I guess that’s not really an excuse, but I did say these would be sincere.
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2013-09-11, 12:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Disintegrate: A Motif?
well, even if oots is not about optimization, still there's no reason not to use a useful spell. it's like guns in action movies, they get used a lot because they are the best in modern portable weaponry. EDIT so it's not a motif, it is just that action movies portray people fighting and guns are the best fighting implemment available /EDIT there are only a few exceptions like kill bill, and frankly i always thought the lack of guns in that movie didn't make any sense.
Last edited by King of Nowhere; 2013-09-11 at 12:54 PM.
In memory of Evisceratus: he dreamed of a better world, but he lacked the class levels to make the dream come true.
Ridiculous monsters you won't take seriously even as they disembowel you
my take on the highly skilled professional: the specialized expert
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2013-09-11, 02:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Disintegrate: A Motif?
Not at all. It's just that the proposed motif ("significant plot events") is way too scattered to be anything more significant than "disintegrate is a powerful tool".
Take a look at the list in the original post and you'll find more or less random strips. Like is, I dunno, #625 really more or less important than the ones directly before or after it? Or #653?
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2013-09-12, 01:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Disintegrate: A Motif?
Disintegrate is a very useful spell for OOTS because it is equally plausible to utterly obliterate someone as it is to barely inconvenience them—it's the "swingiest" damage spell. Thus, there's a lot more uncertainty as to the outcome, which makes it more useful in storytelling. A person can get hit full force, they can get hit for partial force, or they can be missed entirely, and it's up to me which one of those happens. There's no collateral damage, which means it only hits the target I want to hit. If it kills, it makes Resurrection much harder without needing to do anything extra. And there's no well-established means of becoming immune to it, so no can tell me that OF COURSE Character X should have had Resist Disintegration cast come on do you even PLAY D&D????
Rich Burlew
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2013-09-12, 02:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Disintegrate: A Motif?
And when it does hit for full force it's extremely powerful, which (plus the part where there's no easy way to block its damage) makes it extremely believable as an evoker's go-to damage spell - further forestalling BUT WHAT ABOUT WHAT IT SAYS IN THIS SPLATBOOK criticism.
Originally Posted by The Giant