After vs Life

[Millstone85]

That was not the stirring defense of the sanctity of life I'd been hoping for.
Wrecan OotS#998

And I've been dead before, too-and for all the comforts of the afterlife, I am in no hurry to trade this existence for that one.
Roy OotS#998

I am sure this has been discussed before, probably heatedly after comic #669 too.

But yeah, what is in fact the value of these corporeal lives, especially to the souls in their meat suits vessels of flesh?

Can you remind me what it is Roy feels he has to lose?

[dancrilis]

Can you remind me what it is Roy feels he has to lose?

You are not going to like the answer, but if you want to punish yourself read on ...

Can you remind me what it is Roy feels he has to lose?

Roy had dedicated a large segment of his life to defeating Xykon - to allow the gods to swoop in and fix everything means that Roy has lost, he wasted his time, it was all for nothing, or to paraphrase one of the Order 'he got his best friend horribly killed for absolutely no damn reason at all'.

Roy's investment in the world (and his quest) is personal not strategic.

[Chronos]

The afterlife might be where the fates of souls are carried out, but the material realm is where those fates are decided. The material realm matters, in a way that the afterlife does not.

[DaggerPen]

You are not going to like the answer, but if you want to punish yourself read on ...


Roy had dedicated a large segment of his life to defeating Xykon - to allow the gods to swoop in and fix everything means that Roy has lost, he wasted his time, it was all for nothing, or to paraphrase one of the Order 'he got his best friend horribly killed for absolutely no damn reason at all'.

Roy's investment in the world (and his quest) is personal not strategic.

In some fairness, I think most people's investment in the world is personal.

[DeDreamer]

That's an interesting question and, weirdly, one I was thinking about just yesterday. For the kind of afterlife portrayed in OotS to have meaning, it has to follow upon a corporeal life. Consider how much less meaningful that scene between Roy and his kid brother would have been if we hadn't been able to empathize with the grief he'd gone through. We pursue happiness, sure, but it's the hardships we go through that bind us all together and give events impact. Without that, everything loses context and meaning.

I sort of remember that Roy's grandfather had ascended to a higher plane of the afterlife, having grown out of his earthly desires but he returned to visit with Roy. I wonder if the afterlife in OotS is a way for souls to sort of work themselves out, resolve lingering issues left over from their corporeal existence, and when that process is done maybe they let those earthly identities go altogether. So ending the world really would mean the loss of not only all the characters we've loved for so many years, but the fruits of their labors to, all memory of everything they've ever done.

[littlebum2002]

We literally have the EXACT same situation here on earth, so it shouldn't be much of a surprise. Billions of people believe they are going to paradise when they die, but that doesn't mean they kill themselves to get there earlier. In fact, almost all try to make their lives as long as possible, regardless of what they believe awaits them when they die.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think people tie the material world to achievement and gain, while viewing the afterlife as more static, without the potential to grow. I'm sure some people wouldn't mind the latter, but not everyone feels that way. Then again, this question really depends on how you view the afterlife. Also, what Littlebum said.

[tomaO2]

{scrubbed}

[Haruki-kun]

The Winged Mod: Guys, let this post remind you that real-world Religions are not a permitted topic on these boards, even if used as a basis for comparison with fictional religions. Please proceed with this topic, but avoid references to the real world.

[Lissou]

The way the afterlife works from what we've seen is segregated based on alignment. Which means Roy could be with Durkon and Elan with Haley, but the groups wouldn't be with each other. And if Elan and Haley had been slightly different alignment, the couple would be separated. V wouldn't be with anyone else from the group, either.

I was wondering the exact same thing until I thought about that fact. The souls may survive, but they may also be separated from everyone they love. Plus, you know, unfinished business. Like, in a video game, you may be able to get to the next level already, but still want to finish this one first.

But yeah, in a world where the afterlife demonstrably exists and everyone knows it, it doesn't really make sense to me to care as much about the world being destroyed because nobody would actually die, they would just move on to their next existence. Which for a lot of people would be a great one (I don't know how it works for the Evil ones. Are they punished and tortured, or do they get a reward for helping the cause of the demons they end up with? It's usually the former, but in a world with alignments that can change and an absolute certitude that the afterlife exists, the later makes more sense to me).

[factotum]

The afterlife might be where the fates of souls are carried out, but the material realm is where those fates are decided. The material realm matters, in a way that the afterlife does not.

This, definitely. That furthermore means that ending the world right now makes a real difference, because people who are currently doomed to one particular afterlife destination, and who might have changed over the rest of their lives to change that, won't get the opportunity. We already saw from Roy's interview how finely-balanced some of these afterlife decisions can be.

(Also, can you imagine the *queues* after this happens? There were huge queues of souls waiting to be processed after Azure City, where only about 10,000 humans died--this plan would dump *millions* of souls into the afterlife simultaneously!).

[Alex Warlorn]

What makes this a little more complicated is that the Snarl getting loose doesn't just mean the mortals all die and the gods go poof with them.

Loki DOESN'T CARE that in that time between the gods push the big red button, and the Snarl escapes, that countless mortals will be obliterated out of existence, forget ANY afterlife boyo, you're ceasing to exist, not even as spiritual raw material to make a NEW soul, totally negative sum to your spiritual being.

[SlashDash]

Since we're talking OotS world here (without debating this issue for real life religions), then there is only one real answer:

Because at its core, the order of the stick is essentially the world as it seems from the lives of Dungeon and Dragons characters. Since they are characters in a game, they act by how players act - even if it makes no sense for actual people to do the same.

For example, why would a bunch of ogres go out and in of combat just because Haley told them her horse forgot to do a spot check?
It makes no sense as "real life" people, but as characters in a game it makes perfect sense.

If the characters in the game die and go to the afterlife, there is no more adventure. No more quests and no real enjoyment to the players. It's a great life for the character, but a rather boring and uneventful enough for players.

There is a reason why fairy tales end with "they lived happily ever after", because if they are forever happy and comfortable it's too boring for us to bother paying attention.


Ergo, Roy - a PC - must do everything he can to stay in the game.

[Millstone85]

Thank you all for your answers.

Roy's investment in the world (and his quest) is personal not strategic.

In some fairness, I think most people's investment in the world is personal.

I actually like that answer. It is about Roy's pride. Perhaps it is a sin or maybe it is not.

The afterlife might be where the fates of souls are carried out, but the material realm is where those fates are decided. The material realm matters, in a way that the afterlife does not.

For the kind of afterlife portrayed in OotS to have meaning, it has to follow upon a corporeal life.

I think people tie the material world to achievement and gain, while viewing the afterlife as more static, without the potential to grow.

Well then, it's a crappy afterlife. But you are right, that seems to be the way of things. Roy's baby brother particularly illustrates the lack of grow.

We literally have the EXACT same situation here on earth, so it shouldn't be much of a surprise.

For the record, I am an atheist. I guess that's all I can say here.

The way the afterlife works from what we've seen is segregated based on alignment. [...] The souls may survive, but they may also be separated from everyone they love.

people who are currently doomed to one particular afterlife destination, and who might have changed over the rest of their lives to change that, won't get the opportunity.

Another good point in favor of earthly life.

Loki DOESN'T CARE that in that time between the gods push the big red button, and the Snarl escapes, that countless mortals will be obliterated out of existence

I hadn't thought of that. It is not really what I was asking about but it is interesting.

Because at its core, the order of the stick is essentially the world as it seems from the lives of Dungeon and Dragons characters. Since they are characters in a game, they act by how players act - even if it makes no sense for actual people to do the same.

I like to think, or hope, that OotS is better than this. The story is meta in a good and funny way. What you describe here would feel like a cop-out.

[LuisDantas]

For an interesting perspective on similar considerations, may I recommend the Riverworld series by Philip Jose Farmer?

[Reddish Mage]

We literally have the EXACT same situation here on earth, so it shouldn't be much of a surprise. Billions of people believe they are going to paradise when they die, but that doesn't mean they kill themselves to get there earlier. In fact, almost all try to make their lives as long as possible, regardless of what they believe awaits them when they die.

The comparison is still apt, Roy and Celia speculated what the world would be like if there was no planar travel or resurrection spells

but the point is...why...is not answered by pointing out any facts how real world humans behave regardless of what they may or may not believe. The question is what does people in OOTS have that makes them invested in the material world and not the much better outer planes they are headed to when they die.

One could also ask why people would choose alignments other than Good or "True" Neutral, as those are the only alignment planes that actually seem inviting. The Lower Planes are various depictions of Hell (including the one called Hell), the Lawful Neutral plane is like working for the most hyper-anal insurance company ever, and the Chaotic Neutral plane is distilled madness.

At least the former question has answers that make sense on human nature or has traditional philosophic answers...the latter...

[BenjCano]

Roy said something int he latest comic that opens up a philosophical and theological wormhole. When trying to persuade the gods not to destroy the world, he says, "And I've been dead before, too -- and for all the comforts of the afterlife, I'm in no hurry to trade that existence for this one."

When the threat of Xykon taking over the world and making life one of misery for all living creatures was a threat, this was a valid concern to abandon the pleasures of heaven. When the Snarl might have eradicated not just the living, but the souls of the dead and the gods themselves, this was a valid concern. But Roy just heard Heimdall say that the destruction of the world would merely be physical. The souls of all living beings would pass to the proper divine realm, and the threat by power-hungry liches would also be eliminated, needless to say.

So both the problems that sitting back on cloud nine would have prevented Roy from solving by defending the remaining gates are kind of rendered moot. So we're left with the question why would any mortal being prefer the corporeal life instead of the afterlife? What is there in the world that's not also there in Heaven, better and more real and more permanent? This runs into some problems you get when you consider the implications of afterlife rewards in the real world, but a key difference is that in OotS is that no one has to take the existence of the heavenly realms on faith. They're there. They can be visited by soul or by spell, and people can come back.

And everything there is better. No disease, no death, no pain and suffering. You get to have infinite one night stands, win debates, have people fawn over, or, if you like, pursue spiritual enlightenment in a perfect body that will not know the ravages of time.

So...what has the corporeal life got that Roy wants to hold on to? It can't be to stop Xykon from taking over. The gods will make him go kablooey. It can't be protecting the souls and heavenly realms from the Snarl; the gods said they'd catch the souls when they destroyed the world. So why not be like, "well that solves my problem. Imma go tell the team that we're off the clock."

[Windscion]

The big thing he can do is convince himself that he is somehow worthy to receive those things. And also to rectify his and his father's mistakes.

[Roland Itiative]

Well, Roy doesn't remember the specifics of his stay on the afterlife, only that he was happy there. So in a way, it must all feel like a dream to him now, not as real as the living world.

There's also the matter of wanting to have some kind of say in his own destiny, instead of just being thrown around at the whims of the gods with no way to change anything. If the world is saved, everyone will still end up in the afterlife at one point or another, yes, but at least that can be done on the mortals' own terms (for the most part).

[Jay R]

In some fairness, I think most people's investment in the world is personal.

Beautiful. Just beautiful.

[The Giant]

And everything there is better. No disease, no death, no pain and suffering. You get to have infinite one night stands, win debates, have people fawn over, or, if you like, pursue spiritual enlightenment in a perfect body that will not know the ravages of time.

Except, of course, that you will never improve at any skill you know, never have a say in what happens in the world, never have children if you haven't already, never talk to anyone with a different point of view, never experience any real risk, never visit anywhere else, and never see any friends or family members who did not share the exact same shade of alignment as you. Oh, and you can still be destroyed by evil adventurers, but you never get any better at defending yourself.

And that's the Lawful Good afterlife. Roy is talking about the entire world here, many of whom might be headed for less cushy situations.

Analogy time! If you were to take the National Football League and disband it, forcibly retiring everyone who plays, you would objectively be improving the long-term health prognosis of almost every player as well as giving them oodles of free time to study basketweaving and poetry. And yet every player would resist if they could, because playing football is important to their identity. Sure, they all know they will have to stop someday anyway, but all the more reason to treasure the playing time they have left.

[King of Nowhere]

I think people tie the material world to achievement and gain, while viewing the afterlife as more static, without the potential to grow. I'm sure some people wouldn't mind the latter, but not everyone feels that way. Then again, this question really depends on how you view the afterlife. Also, what Littlebum said.

Yes, exactly that. a world with free sex and food and entertainment would be great, but in the end of the day, what I'm really looking forward are the things that change. Grow. Improve. From small things like finding out there is a new oots, to large things like seeing how much green economy has expanded in another year, to long-term things like the many steps of space exploration - I don't think we'll become a really spacefaring race, i.e. space travel being an everyday occcurrence instead of requiring a significant fraction of a nation's GNP for a single probe, in my lifetime. But it's nice to see how we gradually get closer to it - it gives life a flavor. I don't know how to explain it. The human race is writing the biggest story ever, i.e. the story of the human race, and I'm part of it, I'm participating. Without all that stuff, I may have mindless short-term entertainment, but I'd have nothing to look forward to. Or, I may keep looking down at the material plane, but then I wouldn't be part of it anymore. I would not have an impact on it. My actions would have no consequences. They would be meaningless.

Then there is the matter of personal growth. People don't learn in the afterlife. Learning is important. There are many things in the universe, and you know a very small percentage of them. Your table (or any other inanimated object) knows nothing, 0%. On a cosmic scale, you're not much different from your table. And then, every day something new happen in the universe. The total sum of things in the universe grows. So, if you haven't learned annything new, the percenntage of stuff you know becomes smaller. While the table is still at 0%. Therefore, every day you learn nothing is a day where your table is catching up to you. The more you stay in the afterlife, the more you become indistinguishable from your table.

Yes, it would be nice to live in a world with a verifiable nice afterlife, and certainly the prospect of death would be less scary. But I'd still prefer to live as long as possible.

EDIT: woah, ninjaed by the giant himself!

[The Giant]

I didn't realize there was a longer thread on this exact same topic when I responded, so rather than carry on two conversations, I've merged the two threads.

[Tala Goodweed]

Except, of course, that you will never improve at any skill you know, never have a say in what happens in the world, never have children if you haven't already, never talk to anyone with a different point of view, never experience any real risk, never visit anywhere else, and never see any friends or family members who did not share the exact same shade of alignment as you. Oh, and you can still be destroyed by evil adventurers, but you never get any better at defending yourself.

And that's the Lawful Good afterlife. Roy is talking about the entire world here, many of whom might be headed for less cushy situations.

Analogy time! If you were to take the National Football League and disband it, forcibly retiring everyone who plays, you would objectively be improving the long-term health prognosis of almost every player as well as giving them oodles of free time to study basketweaving and poetry. And yet every player would resist if they could, because playing football is important to their identity. Sure, they all know they will have to stop someday anyway, but all the more reason to treasure the playing time they have left.

Best use of analogy...ever

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Except, of course, that you will never improve at any skill you know, never have a say in what happens in the world, never have children if you haven't already, never talk to anyone with a different point of view, never experience any real risk, never visit anywhere else, and never see any friends or family members who did not share the exact same shade of alignment as you. Oh, and you can still be destroyed by evil adventurers, but you never get any better at defending yourself.

And that's the Lawful Good afterlife. Roy is talking about the entire world here, many of whom might be headed for less cushy situations.

Analogy time! If you were to take the National Football League and disband it, forcibly retiring everyone who plays, you would objectively be improving the long-term health prognosis of almost every player as well as giving them oodles of free time to study basketweaving and poetry. And yet every player would resist if they could, because playing football is important to their identity. Sure, they all know they will have to stop someday anyway, but all the more reason to treasure the playing time they have left.

Nice, so my guess about the afterlife was correct. Thanks for providing an answer to this topic!

[BaronOfHell]

Oh, and you can still be destroyed by evil adventurers, but you never get any better at defending yourself.

What exactly are the consequences of being destroyed in the afterlife?

[Kantaki]

What exactly are the consequences of being destroyed in the afterlife?

I think the consequences might be similar to those a outsider would face upon destruction. The Soul in question would cease to be and become part of the plane in question.

[orrion]

What exactly are the consequences of being destroyed in the afterlife?

No more key lime pie.

[BenjCano]

Except, of course, that you will never improve at any skill you know, never have a say in what happens in the world, never have children if you haven't already, never talk to anyone with a different point of view, never experience any real risk, never visit anywhere else, and never see any friends or family members who did not share the exact same shade of alignment as you. Oh, and you can still be destroyed by evil adventurers, but you never get any better at defending yourself.

I hear what you're saying but you kind of showed that the exact opposite is true in the story. Roy learned a new swordfighting technique from his grandfather. That alone is proof that change and growth still happens after death. Do you mean to say that if the Stickverse had a version of Albert Einstein up in Celestia, that Roy couldn't lean physics from him if he was inclined to find it out? And when Roy's Archon that further up the mountain greater spiritual enlightenment awaited those who had tired of more base pleasures, does that statement not imply that a soul in heaven can look to better himself, implying that yes, change is possible.


And as far as talking to people with a different point of view, doesn't Eugene offer counter proof that statement? Supposing that there was a Eugne-clone identical in all respects to Roy's father, except that there wasn't the unfulfilled Blood Oath barring him from heaven. Would not Eugene-clone and Roy have plenty to disagree about, despite the identical entry in the alignment section of their character sheet?


Hell, Durkon himself is proof that people can have identical alignments and not see eye-to-eye on every issue. That wasn't a short joke, I swear. Roy and Durkon have had disagreements despite their friendship, so I don't see why, out of the entire pool of lawful good creatures, suddenly they are cookie-cutter clones of each other after death.


Visiting people of a different alignment...didn't Soon promise Miko that Windstriker would come to visit her as often as he was able? Whatever destination Miko ended up in, it probably wasn't Celestia. It was probably one of those less cushy places you mentioned. Yet she's going to be able to receive a visitor from Celestia from time to time, unless Soon was being Jedi-honest and really meant that the horse would visit her as often as he could, which was never. In which case he should go to hell for lying, but I digress. If the gods can issue celestial day passes to horses, why is the same impossible for mortal souls?

Being destroyed by evil invading adventurers, that's a problem whether the souls arrive in Celestia via world destruction or natural death. It's a wash on both cases.

Analogy time! If you were to take the National Football League and disband it, forcibly retiring everyone who plays, you would objectively be improving the long-term health prognosis of almost every player as well as giving them oodles of free time to study basketweaving and poetry. And yet every player would resist if they could, because playing football is important to their identity. Sure, they all know they will have to stop someday anyway, but all the more reason to treasure the playing time they have left.

I know that all analogies break down if you push them hard enough, but this is again one that contradicts something earlier. This time the contradiction is in the first paragraph of your response to me. In this situation the dangerous game of life is playing pro football and the afterlife is this kind of forced retirement. But didn't you just say earlier that you can't improve any skills you have after retirement, but here in your analogy you say that the retired players can learn poetry and basketweaving?

I think a more appropriate analogy is that players who want to play football can continue to do so. Except that they're no longer at risk for traumatic brain injury, damage to their bodies, oh, and we can now form football teams from the bool of the greatest football players across history (shared alignment provision granted). So if we still want to use the football analogy...it's like we can take the list of everyone who ever played for the 49ers and assemble the best teams possible and have them play each other without risk of injury.

[factotum]

So if we still want to use the football analogy...it's like we can take the list of everyone who ever played for the 49ers and assemble the best teams possible and have them play each other without risk of injury.

Which is fine for football players. What about people who do things *because* of the risk? The sort of people who, in our day and age, will embark on solo trips to the North Pole or will BASE jump off the north face of the Eiger, just because they want to test themselves and prove to the world they can do it? Sure, they can do similar things in the afterlife, but there is no longer a real risk attached.

Also, you should try taking your own argument about people being different despite their alignment to its logical conclusion. There are going to be LG people who absolutely hate Celestia, or LN for whom spending the rest of eternity in the company of winged mechanical boxes is not the be-all of their ambition. And let's not even get started on the people who are doomed to the Lower Planes--you really think those guys are aching to become eternal torture chamber victims, or fight in the Blood War?