Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

[Lethologica]

Eh, either way it means a timeline where cap never returns, to explain cap returning before he left and heading down to the bench.

If Cap can arrive earlier on the platform as your theory suggests, I don't see why he can't arrive at the same time on the bench. They're equivalent translations through spacetime from the spacetime coordinate Cap is supposed to return to. If anything, the latter should be easier.

[Starbuck_II]

Guys, it was Mickey Mouse (fitting now that Disney runs marvel) who was the hero because that mouse was spared and then freed Ant Man.
In other dimensions, Thanos erased that mouse too.

[Calemyr]

I realize I'm late to the party, but I wanted to voice my take on the time travel issue. Basically, my take is that it operates on "close enough" logic.

Spoiler: Close Enough

Show

In other words, alternate timelines are not generated if the events of a time loop can still logically lead to the same results as the loop before it.

For instance, the Titan Abortion tactic wouldn't work, because Thanos plays too major a role in the timeline. Remove him from the sequence of events and the sequence unfolds to a very different outcome. A new timeline is generated.

"Close enough" logic would say that other forms of interference, on the other hand, would be fine. You go back in time and drew on his face with a sharpie when he was a child, and that doesn't change much. Thanos may be a little more careful about sleeping situations due to an embarrassing event in his youth, but he still fails to save Titan, he still comes to his 50% solution conclusion, he still snaps to the beat. Outcome is the same, no new timeline generated. Sure, the outcome could lead to an alternate outcome (Thanos is embarrassed enough that he doesn't present his theory to his fellow Titans and thus doesn't find the righteous indignation that pushes him to demi-omnicide), but if it can logically go the same way it will, like water following a groove.

By this logic, a lot of suspected issues cease being issues. The cube and the staff are broken? Irrelevant, because they were going to break anyway. It just happened ahead of schedule. All that really changes is that Samuel L Jackson refers to the Tesseract as "that creepy blue rock" rather than "the cube" and Hydra experiments on a mysterious yellow rock instead of a mysterious alien staff. Thor's conversation with mommy doesn't break anything because she still owns up and lets herself die to the dark elves. And the hammer may start from a different location when Cap drops it off in Asgard, but it will still go to the same place when Dark World Thor calls for it.

As a result, Old Steve Rogers would not break generate a different timeline, as long as Cap isn't stupid. He stays in the past and becomes Steve Carter, contendedly boring househusband. He doesn't tell his wife spoilers beyond "it will all turn out alright", which does nothing but feed the perky optimism (and frustrated snark) Peggy Carter is known for. He knows his history enough to avoid New York in the 2000s, and times his visits to his ailing wife to avoid his past self - and maybe not even that, it's not like young Steve is going to spot graymane Steve walking past him in the hallway. Staying out of trouble is hard, even as an old guy, but he knows that it all works out if he does nothing and he breaks time if he does anything. Once the loop successfully returns to where it began, Old Steve is free to make his presence known and pass his shield on to the survivor with the highest charisma score. (Tell me I'm wrong, I dare you.)

Anyway, that's my take on the matter. I think it's a simple enough construct that covers the basics.

[Giggling Ghast]

Unfortunately I cannot find a complete clip of that scene at this time to fully refute you there, only one that starts midway through the relevant discussion, but that was very much not my takeaway from that scene.

I think this is what you're talking about.

https://youtu.be/gMJZ57hz2-Q?t=80

[Zevox]

I think this is what you're talking about.

https://youtu.be/gMJZ57hz2-Q?t=80

No, that part I already referenced a couple of posts ago. At that point I was referring to the scene in Endgame where Hulk and The Ancient One are discussing the issue of the timeline splitting. There's a clip of the scene out there that's easy to find, but it begins with The Ancient One already midway through her explanation, telling Hulk that if he removes the Time Stone, her timeline will split off. The relevant context to either support or refute Anteros' claim (or neither, if the dialogue is inconclusive and we're both just drawing different inferences from it) would come just before that.

[Talakeal]

Unfortunately I cannot find a complete clip of that scene at this time to fully refute you there, only one that starts midway through the relevant discussion, but that was very much not my takeaway from that scene. There was no suggestion that it is only the use of the Time Stone that results in timelines varying, only that removing one would result in a timeline split, since the past would have been changed such that it would no longer become the Avengers' original future.

The Ancient One absolutely says that the Infinity Stones are responsible for maintaining the one true timeline and that it is specifically removing the stones that will cause the timelines to split.

[Devonix]

The Ancient One absolutely says that the Infinity Stones are responsible for maintaining the one true timeline and that it is specifically removing the stones that will cause the timelines to split.

Which is a bit silly, since now the stones are destroyed. What now. Is there no time? Is everything splitting constantly?

[Friv]

Which is a bit silly, since now the stones are destroyed. What now. Is there no time? Is everything splitting constantly?

There are two possibilities.

Possibility #1 - When Thanos destroyed the Stones, he did so in a way that dissolved them throughout the universe, so things are self-maintaining and basically okay.

Possibility #2 - When Thanos destroyed the Stones, he did a big no-no and the next phase of the MCU is going to be about the ramifications of there not being Stones any more.

[Devonix]

There are two possibilities.

Possibility #1 - When Thanos destroyed the Stones, he did so in a way that dissolved them throughout the universe, so things are self-maintaining and basically okay.

Possibility #2 - When Thanos destroyed the Stones, he did a big no-no and the next phase of the MCU is going to be about the ramifications of there not being Stones any more.

Possibility #3 The Ancient one forgot about the iron fleet. Aka they weren't thinking about it when they wrote the line.

[gomipile]

What the Ancient One says is:

" I'm sorry, I can't help you, Bruce. If I give up the Time Stone to help your Reality, I'm dooming my own."

and

"The Infinity Stones create what you experience as the flow of time. Remove one stone and that flow splits. [Shows black stream indicating a point of divergence] Now, this may benefit your reality, but my new one…not so much. In this new branched Reality, without our chief weapon against the forces of darkness, our world will be overrun. Millions will suffer. So, tell me, Doctor, can your science prevent all that?"

The problem is that the Time Stone is "our chief weapon against the forces of darkness." She doesn't mention any existential threat due to the lack of a stone itself, the problem is the threat of "the forces of darkness" without the Time Stone specifically as a weapon against them.

[LaZodiac]

Thanos explicitly says they're not DESTROYED destroyed, they're atomized and scattered across the universe. They're not gone, just made inaccessible.

[Talakeal]

What the Ancient One says is:

" I'm sorry, I can't help you, Bruce. If I give up the Time Stone to help your Reality, I'm dooming my own."

and

"The Infinity Stones create what you experience as the flow of time. Remove one stone and that flow splits. [Shows black stream indicating a point of divergence] Now, this may benefit your reality, but my new one…not so much. In this new branched Reality, without our chief weapon against the forces of darkness, our world will be overrun. Millions will suffer. So, tell me, Doctor, can your science prevent all that?"

The problem is that the Time Stone is "our chief weapon against the forces of darkness." She doesn't mention any existential threat due to the lack of a stone itself, the problem is the threat of "the forces of darkness" without the Time Stone specifically as a weapon against them.

Right. I assume she means without the time stone Dormommu would win in Doctor Strange.

But she still says that bolded part above, meaning that it is specifically removing the stones that create branching time ways, not merely changing the past.

[Zevox]

What the Ancient One says is:

" I'm sorry, I can't help you, Bruce. If I give up the Time Stone to help your Reality, I'm dooming my own."

and

"The Infinity Stones create what you experience as the flow of time. Remove one stone and that flow splits. [Shows black stream indicating a point of divergence] Now, this may benefit your reality, but my new one…not so much. In this new branched Reality, without our chief weapon against the forces of darkness, our world will be overrun. Millions will suffer. So, tell me, Doctor, can your science prevent all that?"

The problem is that the Time Stone is "our chief weapon against the forces of darkness." She doesn't mention any existential threat due to the lack of a stone itself, the problem is the threat of "the forces of darkness" without the Time Stone specifically as a weapon against them.

Thank you.

Right. I assume she means without the time stone Dormommu would win in Doctor Strange.

Definitely true.

But she still says that bolded part above, meaning that it is specifically removing the stones that create branching time ways, not merely changing the past.

I don't think so, no. It's an odd remark, but it doesn't necessarily imply that it's only messing with the stones that can change the timelines, just that removing one from hers definitely will, which is just as true if what it takes is any major change to the timeline. And it certainly doesn't carry the implication of a single, set, predestined order of events throughout all time that can only be changed if the use of the Time Stone is involved, as Anteros implied.

[Talakeal]

I don't think so, no. It's an odd remark, but it doesn't necessarily imply that it's only messing with the stones that can change the timelines, just that removing one from hers definitely will, which is just as true if what it takes is any major change to the timeline. And it certainly doesn't carry the implication of a single, set, predestined order of events throughout all time that can only be changed if the use of the Time Stone is involved, as Anteros implied.

So saying that the stones "create the flow of time" is just a non sequitur then?

[Rakaydos]

So saying that the stones "create the flow of time" is just a non sequitur then?

It may be biased to the Ancient One's view, as the only stone she's personally handled is the time stone.

Also remember the final exchange.

"Did Strange make a mistake?"
*pause*
"...Or I did."
Then the ancient one hands over the stone.

Ancient one can presumably do the same "check the future" trick Strange did, and didnt need to check nearly as many possibilities. "Strange was destined to be the greatest of the Sorcerers Supreme" and she was standing in the way of that destiny, due to a gamble that Strange made, his "one chance" of beating Thanos. (but, Destiny, so a million to one is a guarenteed success)

[Ramza00]

So HISHE, How it should have ended did their Endgame video.



I forgot about one of the points they did with Endgame and there silly time travel that HISHE pointed out, can you use time travel to de age a person while keeping there existing brain waves and identity?

Is this how 1992 Michael Fassbender Dark Phoenix Magneto becomes the 2000 Hot as [Censored] Ian Mckellen X-Men Magneto? Or does Apocalypse Horseman tech prevent Fassbender from evolving into a sexy as [censored] silver gay fox? 🦊

--------

Also for world wide box office sales Endgame is at #2 and is still 54 million dollars behind #1 Avatar. Is this a good thing or bad thing, getting 98% of the way there? (It is even further behind if you calculate ticket prices inflation.)

[Bartmanhomer]

So HISHE, How it should have ended did their Endgame video.



I forgot about one of the points they did with Endgame and there silly time travel that HISHE pointed out, can you use time travel to de age a person while keeping there existing brain waves and identity?

Is this how 1992 Michael Fassbender Dark Phoenix Magneto becomes the 2000 Hot as [Censored] Ian Mckellen X-Men Magneto? Or does Apocalypse Horseman tech prevent Fassbender from evolving into a sexy as [censored] silver gay fox? 🦊

--------

Also for world wide box office sales Endgame is at #2 and is still 54 million dollars behind #1 Avatar. Is this a good thing or bad thing, getting 98% of the way there? (It is even further behind if you calculate ticket prices inflation.)

It's a good thing that it made #2 in the box office.

[Kitten Champion]

Also for world wide box office sales Endgame is at #2 and is still 54 million dollars behind #1 Avatar. Is this a good thing or bad thing, getting 98% of the way there? (It is even further behind if you calculate ticket prices inflation.)

If they really want the bragging rights - which, well, Disney owns both properties so I'm fairly certain they'll sleep comfortably with or without them - they can find an excuse to re-release it at some later point as Avatar did, just to scoot ahead for posterity.

If we're adjusting for inflation, I don't think anyone is ever beating Gone with the Wind. Looking at the numbers though, Avatar came closer than I thought. Still hundreds of millions off, but Endgame would need around a billion more to surpass it in today's Monopoly money. Which, considering the context of Gone with the Wind's release and subsequent success that's a good thing, just objectively speaking.

Ya'know, it's kind of surprising in this age of name recognition as the big capital in Hollywood, no one's suggesting a Gone with the Wind remake. I mean, it's a bad idea and I'm not going to argue otherwise, but so was was that Ben-Hur remake that Paramount released in 2016 and no one stopped them.

[Jeivar]

Sorry if this has been brought up before, but is anyone else curious why Tony didn't just...

Spoiler

Show

... fly away with the stones, behind allied lines, and leave Thanos to get smashed by Captain Marvel?

[Draconi Redfir]

Sorry if this has been brought up before, but is anyone else curious why Tony didn't just...

Spoiler

Show

... fly away with the stones, behind allied lines, and leave Thanos to get smashed by Captain Marvel?

because

Spoiler

Show

that's not what happened and / or it would have been significantly less interesting if it had happened like that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Sorry if this has been brought up before, but is anyone else curious why Tony didn't just...

Spoiler

Show

... fly away with the stones, behind allied lines, and leave Thanos to get smashed by Captain Marvel?

Spoiler: Headcanon

Show

Headcanon: Cpt. Marvel can't beat a de-gloved Thanos. It takes a lot out of you to use the damned glove, so he was actually fighting figuratively with one hand tied up behind his back.

By the same metric, it was all Tony could do to click fingers immediately - he wasn't carrying the stones, he was wearing them, and they were already starting to kill him. He didn't have the time to flee, and he couldn't risk being intercepted. He was finally in the sacrifice play that Cpt. America told him he would never be in, and the only way Tony could cut the wire was to get it over with.

Grey Wolf

[Lapak]

Sorry if this has been brought up before, but is anyone else curious why Tony didn't just...

Spoiler

Show

... fly away with the stones, behind allied lines, and leave Thanos to get smashed by Captain Marvel?

Spoiler

Show

Two big reasons might be
- that he didn't just snap Thanos but all his forces. There's a planetary-destruction level invading army currently fighting, and while they could probably take them with Thanos off the field the damage was going to be terrible, especially if they scattered on his death and the fight moved beyond rural upstate New York - to say nothing of the deaths among the Wakandans, wizards, and warriors actively fighting them that he could prevent. It's IC to just end it if he could.

- it's a sure thing. Thanos has bounced back unexpectedly every time they have had him on the ropes, doing his own version of pulling out a clever trick or backup or an unannounced Fabulous and Amazing Power whenever they thought they might have him. Tony, just this once, has an absolute guaranteed This Will Stop Him card in his hand and there is no way he would hold off on playing it lest some new reversal come along and leave him regretting it forever.

[Mightymosy]

Have you people discussed why someone like Thor or Hulk can't snap Iron Man back to life?

Hulk only got his arm scarred by snapping trillions back to life (who died 5 years earlier).
Seems to me like snapping Tony back would be trivial in comparison, maybe scar a hair on one of his fingers or something??

[Anteros]

Maybe the stones in the MCU can't straight up resurrect people? The people who were snapped were a special case since the stones had snapped them away in the first place.

[The Glyphstone]

That's not a bad headcanon. The Gauntlet can cancel/undo a previous use of the Stones, but they can't directly undo the side effects of the Stones themselves. An injury or death caused by Gauntlet activation can't be fixed unless the "Wish" was specifically about causing that injury or death, so Hulk's arm can't be un-withered, Tony or Nat can't be resurrected, etc.

[Mightymosy]

How about putting him into Hulk's juvenation chamber?

[Reddish Mage]

Maybe the stones in the MCU can't straight up resurrect people? The people who were snapped were a special case since the stones had snapped them away in the first place.

That's not just headcanon. They practically state this is how things work in the movie itself. The Avengers have a conversation about bringing back the people "who are just sort of gone" as opposed to the other people they lost. We don't know how they know this or why it works that way, but the way it's said, its clear the Avengers think that snapped people can be resurrected and other's can't.

Of course, Thanos turns back time to resurrect Vision just to kill him again in Infinity War.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Of course, Thanos turns back time to resurrect Vision just to kill him again in Infinity War.

Who was destroyed by Wanda, whose powers are described as coming from the stone (and indeed, the reason why she can destroy the mind stone is because of her connection to it). And thus covered under the same clause as "destroyed by the snap".

I'm not saying it's a foolproof answer - the film is thankfully not that concerned with providing such - but it is as solid a headcanon as one can expect from the circumnstances.

Grey Wolf

[Saintheart]

Vision may be something of a loophole in the use of the Stones because whilst he's sentient I don't think he's alive on the terms that the Stones set (and in particular, the terms that the Soul Stone sets. Interesting hypothetical: what if Thanos had loved Ultron, and used him as the sacrificial lamb? Would the Soul Stone have accepted that price of its use?)

Without the Mind Stone, the colour goes out of Vision identical to Optimus Prime in the 1986 movie. Insofar as he has a life, it's inextricably linked to the Mind Stone, which either provides the Time Stone with the nexus required to reverse his destruction, or determines him as material and not life, which is therefore something the Time Stone can work on.

Just waiting on someone to throw the Dr Manhattan quote at me now.

[gomipile]

Vision may be something of a loophole in the use of the Stones because whilst he's sentient I don't think he's alive on the terms that the Stones set (and in particular, the terms that the Soul Stone sets. Interesting hypothetical: what if Thanos had loved Ultron, and used him as the sacrificial lamb? Would the Soul Stone have accepted that price of its use?)

And you just launched a ship. You should be proud of yourself.