LGBTAitP - Part 22: The Best There Is

[Serpentine]

Salutations, LGBTAitP (that acronym always gives me the mental image of a rather large sandwich for some reason)

This is really the only place... thing I frequent that has a sizable enough LGPTA community for me to ask the following question:
Do you support alternatives to the terms homophobia and heterophobia, such as hetero/homosexism and/or just plain sexual prejudice.

I'm not trying to spark a political thing, maybe some small, friendly debate. Mainly I just want to get a nice sample size from a stand-up group of fellows such as the OotS community.

I could support sexual prejudice as a general term. I do not believe there's any point trying to replace homo/heterophobia, however. It'll just complicate the issue, and it's a perfectly serviceable word.

[Nix Nihila]

I think I want an ouroborus. Is that tacky? It's just a snake-based symbol of eternity and unification holds so much more meaning for me than just a rock on a strip of metal...

I'm not a huge fan of ourobori in terms of aesthetics, but I think it's probably nicer to have a ring which has some sort of personal meaning. I know that I wouldn't want a diamond ring if I were to be married, because there are other gemstones that mean much more to me. Not that I'll be getting married, in all likelihood.

[PrometheusMFD]

I could support sexual prejudice as a general term. I do not believe there's any point trying to replace homo/heterophobia, however. It'll just complicate the issue, and it's a perfectly serviceable word.

But it seems that adding the "phobia" suffix is rather presumptuous of the motivation behind it.

[Triscuitable]

"Never seen" as in "never met in person", or "never even seen a picture of him"? If the latter, that is odd. If the former, that's common. Believing someone's "perfect" is bad news in a relationship, but is also neither uncommon nor particularly relevant to it being an online relationship. And I just think implying that being in an online relationship is a bad thing by default is kinda a bad idea on a forum like this...

I never implied that an online relationship is bad. And it is indeed the latter. She knows nothing of him besides the text he types. That's not a good thing. He lives in another state, according to her, he's a dropout; all these facts she keeps telling me about him continue to scare me more and more for her well being. She's a friend, but she's making a very bad decision in treating him as something so close to her without seeing a single piece of proof that he's even who he says he is.

That has exactly nothing to do with the relative quality of her relationship...

It does. The problem is you're going on my words based on what I've attempted to communicate, and thus you have no idea how truly bad it is.

That makes him Mod Plus...

Even if it's a mod-plus, that's a moderator by another name; thus, admin. I'm looking at this the literal way, not the logical path. It's what makes sense to me. To you, he's a Mod-plus. To me, he's an admin.

Either way, how you type it is how you believe it should be. It's not worth arguing over. Technically, we're both right.

[Serpentine]

But it seems that adding the "phobia" suffix is rather presumptuous of the motivation behind it.

It really isn't. It means an aversion or intense dislike of something. Homophobes have an aversion or intense dislike of homosexuals/homosexuality. The word is accurate.

It does. The problem is you're going on my words based on what I've attempted to communicate, and thus you have no idea how truly bad it is.

That is, indeed, the gist of how online communication works. And when you say "This thing is X, Y and Z, it is bad", I am of course going to assume that you think the thing is bad because of X, Y and/or Z.

Even if it's a mod-plus, that's a moderator by another name; thus, admin. I'm looking at this the literal way, not the logical path. It's what makes sense to me. To you, he's a Mod-plus. To me, he's an admin.

Either way, how you type it is how you believe it should be. It's not worth arguing over. Technically, we're both right.

He's a mod with extra responsibilities and abilities. Regardless, my point was that it wasn't "just one person's nitpicking", it was a forum authority doing his job.

[Nix Nihila]

But it seems that adding the "phobia" suffix is rather presumptuous of the motivation behind it.

I don't think so. I've never heard someone assume that "homophobia" means a fear of homosexual people. It seems to be quite clear that it means a hatred or aversion. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places.

[PrometheusMFD]

Phobia translates to fear, and that's how it's usually portrayed in pop culture.
I notable (and rather refreshing) aversion is the American Dad episode "Daddy Queerest" that portrays the homosexist character as understanding and aware of the modern theories on homosexuality, but still does not like it.

[pffh]

Homo/heterosexist wouldn't really work since the sex in sexist doesn't refer to fornication (no idea why but I hate that word) or sexuality but to sex as in sex/gender.

Sexism is something from sex, racism is something from race and so on.

It would have to be homosexualist but even then the homo/hetero/whatever prefix is to much in that context so we are left with sexualist and sexualism (Or sexualitist and sexualitism).

[Nix Nihila]

Phobia translates to fear, and that's how it's usually portrayed in pop culture.
I notable (and rather refreshing) aversion is the American Dad episode "Daddy Queerest" that portrays the homosexist character as understanding and aware of the modern theories on homosexuality, but still does not like it.

I'm not a language scholar, so I'll let someone else who is more familiar with that field chime in, but in the dictionary I currently have on hand, they translate the suffix "-phobia" as an "extreme or irrational fear or dislike of a specified thing or group." I think the English meaning is more relevant than the root word, but others might disagree.

[Kindablue]

Phobia translates to fear, and that's how it's usually portrayed in pop culture.
I notable (and rather refreshing) aversion is the American Dad episode "Daddy Queerest" that portrays the homosexist character as understanding and aware of the modern theories on homosexuality, but still does not like it.

But everyone knows that homophobia means "the hatred of homosexuals," so there's no real confusion. A word doesn't have to have its original meaning to be correct.

[Gnomish Wanderer]

I would also like to add that by adding the suffix -phobia it makes the trait sound more undesirable somewhat, just psychologically.

[Serpentine]

I don't think so. I've never heard someone assume that "homophobia" means a fear of homosexual people. It seems to be quite clear that it means a hatred or aversion. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places.

It's commonly used by homophobic people somehow attempting to distance themselves from that label. I don't quite get the logic, but there you have it.
(note: I'm not saying Prometheus is such a person. It's just the main place I've heard it used)

Phobia translates to fear, and that's how it's usually portrayed in pop culture.

Phobia does not necessarily require fear, unless you believe (aquaphobic) oils are "afraid" of water. Even if you were right, that explains the origin of the word "homophobia", but does not actually have any relevance to the current meaning of the word.
Moreover, it is in line with a number of other words: a xenophobe is not necessarily going to scream and run away from someone who looks foreign; a photophobic person is not afraid of light, but has physical distress from it. There's plenty of other examples.
So yeah, no. It does not mean "fear of homosexuals" - any more, really, than "with" means "against"*.

*It used to. Now it doesn't.

[Nix Nihila]

So yeah, no. It is not "quite clear that it means a hatred or aversion" - any more, really, than "with" means "against"*.

*It used to. Now it doesn't.

Oh, sorry. I meant specifically in the context of homophobia.

[pffh]

It's commonly used by homophobic people somehow attempting to distance themselves from that label. I don't quite get the logic, but there you have it.
(note: I'm not saying Prometheus is such a person. It's just the main place I've heard it used)

Yeah on another forum I frequent if the topic of homosexuality or homophobia come up there are always a few people that go "lulz homophobia I'm not afraid of teh gayz I just don't like them".

[Serpentine]

Oh, sorry. I meant specifically in the context of homophobia.

Reading derp. I fixed it.

[PrometheusMFD]

It's commonly used by homophobic people somehow attempting to distance themselves from that label. I don't quite get the logic, but there you have it.
(note: I'm not saying Prometheus is such a person. It's just the main place I've heard it used)

I've seen it used on both sides. Actually, I've seen both phrases homophobia and heterophobia (which is not recognized as a word on my computer) used by both sides.

And while I'm not heterosexist by definition, I do have grievances with both sides of the issue.

[Gnomish Wanderer]

I've seen it used on both sides. Actually, I've seen both phrases homophobia and heterophobia (which is not recognized as a word on my computer) used by both sides.

And while I'm not heterosexist by definition, I do have grievances with both sides of the issue.

I think I'm a little confused to what you're trying to ask at this point. Do you not think the term homophobia should be used because it can imply a fear? As I said above I still think it's a good thing that it implies a fear because there's a very common mentality that to be afraid is wrong (For some reason I don't understand). And then with its now commonly-accepted meaning of 'A Hatred or Aversion', as stated above, the word still has a perfectly valid meaning. Lastly I don't understand who would be offended by the word that would warrant a change.

[PrometheusMFD]

Honestly, my original question was who had even thought about alternative phrasing, but we kind of got away from that.
Thus is the nature of debate.

[Anethiel]

Honestly, my original question was who had even thought about alternative phrasing, but we kind of got away from that.

Do you support alternatives to the terms homophobia and heterophobia, such as hetero/homosexism and/or just plain sexual prejudice.

I do not support the usage of heterosexism and homosexism, because:

1) those words make homophobia look like a subset of sexism, which I find incorrect (there is overlap between the two, but they follow different dynamics)
2) they are confusing. Does homosexism mean that I am sexist towards homosexuals, or that I am a sexist homosexual?
3) even if those words conveyed perfectly the intended meaning, the benefit of using them would be insignificant if compared to the cost of explaining the new words. It would be a necessity if there were no adequate words in common use; but the word "homophobia" is well known and accepted in its intended meaning, therefore changing it is pointless.

(In regards to other alternatives than homosexism and heterosexism, the point 3 of the previous list still holds, and to me that is enough to discourage usage.)

I also agree with the points others made about the usage of the suffix -phobia, and I wish to add that the reason "homophobia" uses that suffix is probably to recall the word "xenophobia", underlining the similarity of the two of them.

Side note: this debate actually happened already in the history of this community, fourteen threads ago. It roughly started here and went on for about 25 posts.

[Zampanó]

As reluctant as I am to interrupt an argument an argument about semantics, I need help. (Well, that is, I am willing to ask for help about a specific aspect of my life; this post features a minuscule subset of the those things with which I need help.)

I have been feeling generally cruddy for a month or two, and I've been deferring/stringing along the various potential romances (and one night stands) who've expressed interest. More recently, the family pet (a gorgeous Wolf/German Shepard angel) passed very suddenly. A week out and I'm still in the shock-stage of grief.

There is a limit to how long suitors will wait, however, before 'soon' is translated as 'move along, bud.' (Personally, I'm astonished at the persistence of some of them. My limit is 1 or 2 no-responses before I move on.) I'm just so incredibly apathetic toward the whole scene that I am not particularly concerned with any one potential match, but rather at the psychological (OCD?) pain of each potential path closed off.

I understand that grieving is supposed to take time. But this grief came at *such* an inconvenient time. Is it over-optimistic to hope telling these potential partners (not all of whom got to the "face to face meeting" stage) that I'm not really in a position to date for another month or 2 won't result in a mass exodus?

Will there be anybody left after I get my head back on straight (so to speak)?

[golentan]

Not to be harsh, but is there a reason you're stringing them along? If you're not ready, you're not ready. Trying to meet the situation halfway will just result in a bunch of jammed guns.

My advice: Tell people, straight up, that you're not ready. And that you don't know when you might be ready, because honestly something else might come up. You can't plan your emotional state ahead of time. Let people move on with their lives, and move on with yours until you get to a space where you can look at something more than a one night stand without trying to rush yourself to that place.

When you're ready, someone will be there. Maybe not immediately, but the best things in life are rarely the ones with immediate gratification. There are 7 billion people on earth, with new ones being added every second. You'll find someone you can match up with. But as it is, you can't put other people's lives on hold because you can't make up your mind about them yet. If you want them, then act on it, if you don't want them, then say so, and if you're paralyzed by fears you might want them in the future the salient point is that you don't want them now. Hoarding people is a lot like trying to grab a couple dozen cats. In the end, you've acquired a lot of resentment, a lot of new scars, and you're still left holding air.

[Zampanó]

I absolutely wouldn't consider that as "harsh" in any sense of the word. I just needed someone to say that in a grown up voice so I could buckle down / bite the bullet.

thanks

[Mono Vertigo]

Homophobia is a good word as is. Like everyone else said, there's no ambiguity over its meaning, even though the etymology behind it isn't perfect (but again, hydrophobia in molecules isn't supposed to be an actual fear, acidophiles don't want to marry acid more than we'd want to marry air, and pedosexual and homophile would be better terms than pedophile or homosexual in literal meaning; the making of words, however, is a delicate and complicated art, and we'll have to do with the preexisting words mentioned inside that parenthesis*).
Anyone who says they aren't homophobic but don't like gays is just arguing semantics or a moron. Or both.
When a word works quite well on its own, I don't see a point in making a new one, or attributing the old one connotations/meanings it never had in the past.
I'm neutral when it comes to "heterosexism" or "homosexism". I understand what you mean by both, but they aren't elegant and could as well be replaced by heterophobia or homophobia.



*after all, we have a bunch of words with the meaning of "hatred, dislike or irrational discrimination of a category of people according to characteristics they never chose to have" with very different etymology:
- homophobia/transphobia
- sexism/racism/misandrism
- antisemitism
- misogyny

[Astrella]

Salutations, LGBTAitP (that acronym always gives me the mental image of a rather large sandwich for some reason)

This is really the only place... thing I frequent that has a sizable enough LGPTA community for me to ask the following question:
Do you support alternatives to the terms homophobia and heterophobia, such as hetero/homosexism and/or just plain sexual prejudice.

I'm not trying to spark a political thing, maybe some small, friendly debate. Mainly I just want to get a nice sample size from a stand-up group of fellows such as the OotS community.

Hmm, well the thing is, heterosexist is already an existing term, and it has a slightly different meaning than homophobic. It's like the relation between cissexist and transphobic; heterosexism would be the assumption that the only existing sexual attraction is straight attraction. Things like asking a girl if she has a boyfriend (if you don't know her sexuality), etc...

I don't think it's that big of an issue; considering a lot of words taken from ancient origins have shifted opinion. And the way language works will make it very difficult to change the terms anyway.

(Also, hi~ )

-----

*sympathies for Zampanó*

I don't know much about this stuff; but Golentan has it right I think. Pursuing people when you're not in a emotional state to really do see doesn't seem like it would work out well for any of you.

[Heliomance]

If I ever met a gorgeous man patient enough to tolerate me, I would marry him with a ring of yellow gold set with a flawless clear tsavorite the size of a fingernail and the colour of leaves drowsing in the sleepy heat of August. I would feel the metallic coolness of its band when he put his hand on my cheek.

Of course, the present suite of evidence predicts that such a man does not exist, and I am cursed to horde my jewels for myself like a dwarf.

I could have sworn I recalled you saying you were married already, Kneebiter.

But that's plural! I'd rather make new words than ruin the grammar of existing words.

*twitch*
Singular "they" is perfectly acceptable.

ETA: Paper on 'bigender' people - people who alternate between gender identities.

Ooh, relevant to my interests! I, too, however, thought that bigender referred to people that identified as male and female at the same time.

Hello, everyone! I'm back!

[Thufir]

If I ever met a gorgeous man patient enough to tolerate me, I would marry him with a ring of yellow gold set with a flawless clear tsavorite the size of a fingernail and the colour of leaves drowsing in the sleepy heat of August. I would feel the metallic coolness of its band when he put his hand on my cheek.

Of course, the present suite of evidence predicts that such a man does not exist, and I am cursed to horde my jewels for myself like a dwarf.

Are you saying I'm not gorgeous?

No we should not. There are few things that feel as awesome as being able to pick up a 700 year old book and read from it since your native tongue has barely changed for over a thousand years.

Some would describe that as stagnation.

Salutations, LGBTAitP (that acronym always gives me the mental image of a rather large sandwich for some reason)

The Lettuce, Garlic, Bacon and Tomato sandwich was introduced as an idea back in thread 2 IIRC. Of course now we have an A. No idea what that stands for.

[Qaera]

I believe most Delis with Lagerbeta tendencies put Guacamole on the standard BLT.

~ ♅

[Triscuitable]

I believe most Delis with Lagerbeta tendencies put Guacamole on the standard BLT.

~ ♅

This is so incorrect I'm not even going to correct it.

EDIT: Spelling errors, not intolerance.

[Rawhide]

I believe most Delis with Lagerbeta tendencies put Guacamole on the standard BLT.

~ ♅

I would tend to agree, my friend's gadar pings very loudly when that combination is on the menu, but garlic is still pretty common.

[KenderWizard]

I think I want an ouroborus. Is that tacky? It's just a snake-based symbol of eternity and unification holds so much more meaning for me than just a rock on a strip of metal...

No, I don't think that's tacky at all. I think that's a really nice idea, and it's great when people think about what kind of ring/symbol would hold meaning for them.

They've never met, and she has a ridiculous amount of faith in him. She believes he's perfect, "in [my] eyes." She hasn't even seen him, mind you. Not only this, but her parents are the most overprotective people I've ever met, and her father is a racist against Irishman. He called me a "mick" on our first meeting. What a swell guy.

Didn't even know that "mick" was a slur against the Irish. Also, if you're so cut up about this, talk to her about it. If she continues and you want to help, be a good friend, stay in the loop, offer to accompany her to her first meeting with him if things progress to there and don't be a jerk about him in front of her if it turns out this love's for real.

Salutations, LGBTAitP (that acronym always gives me the mental image of a rather large sandwich for some reason)

This is really the only place... thing I frequent that has a sizable enough LGPTA community for me to ask the following question:
Do you support alternatives to the terms homophobia and heterophobia, such as hetero/homosexism and/or just plain sexual prejudice.

I'm not trying to spark a political thing, maybe some small, friendly debate. Mainly I just want to get a nice sample size from a stand-up group of fellows such as the OotS community.

I like using sexualorientationism and transism instead of homo/transphobia, but that's because I personally like matching sets. And I don't do it in conversation outside of here and with my close friends, because language is language and just because I like my word better doesn't mean it's the better word. The better word is the one that's understood by the person I'm trying to communicate with.

I don't think so. I've never heard someone assume that "homophobia" means a fear of homosexual people. It seems to be quite clear that it means a hatred or aversion. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places.

I have heard people who were clearly just intolerant say "It's a phobia, I can't help that I hate those disgusting gays. They just freak me out like spiders freak some people out."