It feels like it's time.

[ClaimingLight]

I've been following this comic for over a decade. And I've loved every moment of it. But it's time. The story needs to start coming to a close-- and a new Durkon side quest just seems like a distraction. Particularly when Xykon has been sitting at the new gate waiting for the heroes for a long time. It's starting to feel like a Final Fantasy game.

I can only hope that the Durkon subplot ties neatly into the rest. Side stepping to another city with a friend of Elan's Dad and spending the next RL year there is just not the halt in momentum I feel the story can bear.

But that said, I for one would be sad to see these characters go. Perhaps they've got another adventure in them when they're twenty years older?

Spoiler

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Maybe history repeats itself and they all go their separate ways to safeguard gates of their own?

That'd be cool. But this story has gone on a very long time. The narrative deserves closure.

[Cizak]

I think you're out of luck. The story in planned to span 7 books in total, meaning we're on the next to last one now.

[Keltest]

Xykon has only been at the gate for like three days now, and we have no idea how far he's gotten in breaking through its defenses. While the pressure is on, the Order still has time. And its not like they can just ignore this.

[Kish]

I've been following this comic for over a decade. And I've loved every moment of it. But it's time. The story needs to start coming to a close-- and a new Durkon side quest just seems like a distraction. Particularly when Xykon has been sitting at the new gate waiting for the heroes for a long time. It's starting to feel like a Final Fantasy game.

I can only hope that the Durkon subplot ties neatly into the rest. Side stepping to another city with a friend of Elan's Dad and spending the next RL year there is just not the halt in momentum I feel the story can bear.

But that said, I for one would be sad to see these characters go. Perhaps they've got another adventure in them when they're twenty years older?

Spoiler

Show

Maybe history repeats itself and they all go their separate ways to safeguard gates of their own?

That'd be cool. But this story has gone on a very long time. The narrative deserves closure.

I've got good news and bad news for you. The good news is that Rich has said, ever since he introduced the comic having a plot at all, that it has a planned end, and when Blood Runs in the Family was the current book he nailed down exactly where that planned end is, bookswise.

The bad news is that, as Cizak says, it's going to end in the next book, not the current one, and Rich has also said that he is not going to adjust the in-world schedule because comics come out slowly. He's thinking in terms of the "momentum" of a reader reading the completed webcomic after it's finished, for whom the six seconds of in-comic time between #1018 and #1019 is six seconds, not several days.

[Killer Angel]

I've been following this comic for over a decade. And I've loved every moment of it. But it's time. The story needs to start coming to a close-- and a new Durkon side quest just seems like a distraction. Particularly when Xykon has been sitting at the new gate waiting for the heroes for a long time. It's starting to feel like a Final Fantasy game.

I don't share this particular pov, but you are not the only one with this opinion.

[Emperordaniel]

Plus, Xykon (or was it Redcloak?) said it would take a few weeks to cast the Gate Ritual - and we don't even know if they've made it to the actual Gate yet. The Order has time.

[theNater]

Plus, Xykon (or was it Redcloak?) said it would take a few weeks to cast the Gate Ritual...

It was Xykon. (Panel 7).

[littlebum2002]

This is far from the first part of this comic where this has come up, and this is the reason:

He's thinking in terms of the "momentum" of a reader reading the completed webcomic after it's finished, for whom the six seconds of in-comic time between #1018 and #1019 is six seconds, not several days.

And to be perfectly clear, this is NOT a commentary on the update schedule. It's just a fact of life about any webcomic, regardless of how often it's updated. Reading it as it comes out is gonna be a different experience than reading it all at once. And when the story gets slow (such as now, or when they were hanging out in Bleedingham) it's gonna seem like it drags out FOREVER when you're reading it as it comes out. (the Bleedingham arc was another point when I remember people complaining the comic was moving too slowly). But if you go back and read it now, all at once, it seems perfectly fine. That's how this arc is gonna read when the book finally comes out and you read it all at once.

[Ron Miel]

My guess: the first 1/3 of the book is drawing to a close. In a couple of updates Roy and the others will head off towards Dwarven lands.

Next we will see what O'chul and Lien have been doing since we last saw them, and also the Azurites on the island. This will fill the second 1/3 of the book. It will finish with their arrival at the gate. Maybe a brief appearance of Team Evil, but not much.

Then back to the Order's fight with Durkon for the final part of this book.

[Bulldog Psion]

Odd how people actually want this story to end. As quickly as possible, too.

I wouldn't mind if we were at the halfway point only.

In any case, I'm really, really looking forward to finding out more about Durkon's family. I hope we'll run into his mom soon (hopefully not just to witness her horrific death) and find out the mystery about his dad, and his birth, that was implied earlier. So I'd rather not see a cut to last gate at the moment, thanks.

[goodpeople25]

Odd how people actually want this story to end. As quickly as possible, too.

I wouldn't mind if we were at the halfway point only.

In any case, I'm really, really looking forward to finding out more about Durkon's family. I hope we'll run into his mom soon (hopefully not just to witness her horrific death) and find out the mystery about his dad, and his birth, that was implied earlier. So I'd rather not see a cut to last gate at the moment, thanks.

I don't think it's odd to want a story to have an end, I think it's actually kinda refreshing, but i second your on the quickly as possible aspect.

But while i doubt this is the halfway point. I'm guessing we still have around a third to go, though i wouldn't mind if the books are 50% as big as the last one, which brings us about halfway between a third done and halfway there.

But I still don't really see the mystery of durkon's backstory though. (It's possible of course and i see possible hints but to me it's enh..what happens happens i think it's just as possible it's nothing) but yeah no skipping thank you, and i am looking forward to Dawrven lands. (Though maybe not the speculation likely to follow *cough* Hilgya *cough*)

[Czhorat]

I disagree; I feel that we have one story left.

We've had subplots focus on Belkar, Haley, Elan, and Roy, but Durkon hasn't had the spotlight until now. It feels to me that we've just gotten the shape of the conflict between Durkon and the vampiric spirit in his body. With the spirit's missteps and lack of understanding as to how memories come together we've been shown the seeds of a potential victory over this foe, but we're nowhere close to it yet.

The way the book seems to be shaping is that we'll get a resolution to this conflict after we see the fulfillment of Durkon's prophecies (returning to the Dwarven homelands posthumously and bringing death and destruction).

Then the last book can (I'm guessing here) focus on the Order's last efforts to stop Xykon as well as the three-way conflict among the villains (Xykon vs Redcloak vs an increasingly conflicted MiTD).

"A year real-time" is not really the way to measure it; when these are compiled as books, each will read much faster and somewhat differently (though I'm not really sure how well the earlier strips have aged).

[Mozill Marshal]

Hi there everybody.

If anything I'm really gutted that there's only one more book to go before the end although I've only been ready oots for a couple of years; it's by far my favorite online comic.

But thinking as a DM there's always another story to tell, another adventure to undertake and plenty of gold to be won. So hopefully the last book isn't the end of oots just the end of the first full adventure.

If I was to pick anything apart it would be the title of the origins book "the origins of the PC" as I felt it was more like "the origins of the stick" that way Rich could've had another book going into more backstory. Our sexy shoeless GOD of war doesn't have to tragic backstory to be awesome.

Sorry if this isn't the place to say all of that BUT I'm loving the current story arc and the fact that I'm checking for updates twice a day just means I'm really into the story not waiting for things to speed to their conclusion.

[littlebum2002]

My guess: the first 1/3 of the book is drawing to a close. In a couple of updates Roy and the others will head off towards Dwarven lands.

Next we will see what O'chul and Lien have been doing since we last saw them, and also the Azurites on the island. This will fill the second 1/3 of the book. It will finish with their arrival at the gate. Maybe a brief appearance of Team Evil, but not much.

Then back to the Order's fight with Durkon for the final part of this book.

When I first read this I thought you said "the first 1/3rd of the STORY is drawing to a close". I was like how long do you think these next two books are gonna be??

[Peelee]

I've been following this comic for over a decade. And I've loved every moment of it. But it's time. The story needs to start coming to a close-- and a new Durkon side quest just seems like a distraction.

I'm sorry you don't care for it, but this isn't a "sidequest." This is the main plot.

Kish, gotta admit, you were right.

[Ron Miel]

If anything I'm really gutted that there's only one more book to go before the end

Don't worry. There's still quite a way to go. The current book is maybe one third complete, and a whole other book to follow. Plus probably at least one more prequel, and perhaps several of them. And the kickstarter books.

Essentially the equivalent of at least three books to go, maybe more.

And The Giant has some projects planned for after that.

If I was to pick anything apart it would be the title of the origins book "the origins of the PC" as I felt it was more like "the origins of the stick"

You do understand that it's a pun, right?

Just in case you missed it, there's a very famous and influential book called On the Origin of Species by Charles Darwin.


War and XP's is also a pun.

[KorvinStarmast]

It feels like it's time.

Are you suggesting that it feels like the Wheel of Time, by Robert Jordan? (Never ending series of stories that approach culmination but don't quite arrive ...)

I've been following this comic for over a decade. And I've loved every moment of it. But it's time. The story needs to start coming to a close-- and a new Durkon side quest just seems like a distraction.

Not a distraction. Based on what Rich has offered in some of this posts, there will be a total of seven books (like George RR Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire, which originally were to be five books ... ) and this is book 6, about 1/3 of the way through, and this book will contain the Major Durkon Story Arc.

I can only hope that the Durkon subplot ties neatly into the rest.

I expect that this is Rich's objective.

The narrative deserves closure.

As Rich has noted, and others have commented upon, this is a serial episode story from. Consider how a TV series like Breaking Bad goes when first aired. You wait for each new episode to arrive with plot movement ... and a year later you can binge watch the entire season over a weekend. Each is a different way to experience the story.

With this web comic, reading a whole bunch of strips to catch up, or to take them in bunches at a time, is a different way to experience the story than reading one strip per day, or one strip per week.

Because the OoTS web comic format has been presented one episode at a time, closure of various story arcs will come in time.

I just re-read the "Get off the Mechane" through "You're Not Durkon At All" set sequentially. The cohesion and flow was far more effective for me than when I was reading one strip per week, and flowed a lot better.

It's the nature of the beast for the tempo to be what it is. When it's all done, if Rich stays true to previous form, the story will hold together just fine.

[ClaimingLight]

Are you suggesting that it feels like the Wheel of Time, by Robert Jordan? (Never ending series of stories that approach culmination but don't quite arrive ...)

Well, I don't really want to say that. Though I've never seen TheGiant end a story, he's certainly earned my faith in his storytelling ability-- so I'm not trying to be negative.

I suppose I'm just giving voice to the gut feeling I had as I'd watched this develop. The feeling that the climax was getting farther away than I had come to expect from my sense of the plot's flow. But Durkon and Belkar deserve some final character exposition and development and I can totally stay on board with that. I'm certainly not planning to go anywhere.

But it's certainly worth mentioning: in the next few comics as we see Roy's ideas on how to handle the problem of having to be two places at once, I very well may have my fears put to rest.

[Darth Paul]

My feeling is that there's a long way to go, and when we get there, we'll feel as though it ended too soon.

I'm going to make a comparison between OOTS and Lord of the Rings, which isn't 100% appropriate- for one thing, Rich is one helluva lot funnier than Tolkien- but it's personally apt, because LOTR was THE formative fantasy series in my life. I've read it once a year from the time I was 12 (that's 38 years, sports fans).

For many years I skipped over Book 5- all that stuff about Frodo and Sam in Mordor. I found it tedious. I couldn't wait to get to the action. Then I realized that Frodo and Sam are the action. The mental and moral struggle they go through is even more important than the physical struggle of their allies. They are the reason for their allies marching on Mordor. And I began appreciating both equally.

At this point in the narrative, we're sort of in Mordor. We're in a very dark chapter of the story. Durkon's moral struggle is NOT a distraction from the Order's quest, though- it's an integral part of it. Because DURKON is an integral part of the Order. Sometimes I feel as if we've written him off; but he's still there, and soon we're going to witness an epic struggle in the center of his mind. I'm ready. I've got my popcorn. This is gonna be great.

But I have this feeling that, just like LOTR, when the whole story is over, I'll be sad- because the adventure's over.

[SaintRidley]

I hesitate to speak for Rich, but he's said more or less as much in numerous posts that probably grace the quote index somewhere: you appear to be missing the point if you think this business with Durkon is a sidequest. It is the main plot. The story is about the Order of the Stick more than it is about the resolution of the Gates plot.

[Jasdoif]

I hesitate to speak for Rich, but he's said more or less as much in numerous posts that probably grace the quote index somewhere: you appear to be missing the point if you think this business with Durkon is a sidequest. It is the main plot. The story is about the Order of the Stick more than it is about the resolution of the Gates plot.

Let's go for a big quote from the Index, then:

The MacGuffin is not the antagonist. The MacGuffin is the object sought by the antagonist. Narratively speaking, it does not matter what it does—only that the antagonist is willing to kill the protagonist to get it. That is the source of the conflict. It does not matter what is in the rift, it matters who is willing to kill whom to get it, even if they are mistaken about its usefulness. What is in the rift is only important insofar as it may, at some point, change who is willing to kill whom and why. And that IS important, because those details will change the shape of what happens, but not as the source of conflict. The Snarl is not the threat; Xykon is the threat. The Snarl's powers have as much relevance to the quest to get the Snarl as the exact properties of the glowing briefcase have on the plot of Pulp Fiction, or the exact dollar value of the statue in The Maltese Falcon.

Likewise, the setting is not the protagonist. What happens to the world is only important because the protagonists are the sort of people who care about what happens to the world. If Team Evil or the Linear Guild kills the entire Order of the Stick and then takes the Gate only to find that it does not do what they thought it did...how does that help the Order of the Stick? They will still be dead, and the story is about them. The Linear Guild is not a threat because they will do something bad with the Gate; they are a threat because they will kill the Order of the Stick to do it. At the end of Star Wars, one does not care that the Death Star is about to blow up Yavin 4; one cares that the Death Star is about to kill the protagonists, some of whom happen to be on Yavin 4.

If one does not care about the protagonists or antagonists and is not emotionally invested in their struggles—whether those struggles are external or internal, relevant to the MacGuffin plot or not—and all one cares about is the resolution of the MacGuffin chase, then you will almost certainly be bored with a lot of the material I'm producing. And more importantly, I won't care. The Snarl plot is part of the armature upon which I hang the characters' conflicts; it is not the whole of the story. The strip is titled The Order of the Stick, not The Chase for the Snarl or even Saving the World. Ultimately, it seems like you want the story to be about things it is not going to be about, so it's unlikely you are ever going to enjoy it.

[Wildroses]

What stops me from feeling it's time to resolve the gates is that it is pretty clear Rich planned a vampirised Durkula to return to the Dwarven Homelands a long way in advance, and something planned that early is almost certainly a major part of the overall story, even if I couldn't or can't see how. Early book three was when the prophecy about Durkon returning home posthumously was made. Those who have read the Origin of PCs books know Durkon was kicked out because a prophecy was made that he would bring death and destruction when he next returned home. Those who haven't would be have been aware that something very dodgy and secret was behind Durkon's exile on the basis of comic 305 and 375 which were about seven hundred comics ago ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0305.html and http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html )

Also, the only reason they are so worried about the snarl and gates is because they don't want the world to end, and the reason they are now about to rush off to the Dwarven Lands is because they don't want the world to end, so viewed like that this isn't a deviation from the main plot.

[ClaimingLight]

Sure, the story is about the characters. But it isn't fair for anyone, author or not, to suggest that the characters are all I'm here for. I want them to succeed not just because I like them-- but because they're on a mission that I want to see succeed.

If the Order of the Stick was on a quest to, say, fix the plumbing in the upper east side of Desert Town, I wouldn't have been as interested. Thinking of the gates as purely a McGuffin does a disservice to the story TheGiant has worked to create. This isn't the Crystal of Fire we're talking about here. It's a well written, deep part of the world that we've been guided toward caring about. A true McGuffin is just a thing we've been told we're supposed to care about.

Added:
But I don't want to carry on too much about it. This was meant as a reaction, not as a call to arms! I'll be happy to see where the story goes.

[Silverionmox]

I've been following this comic for over a decade. And I've loved every moment of it. But it's time. The story needs to start coming to a close-- and a new Durkon side quest just seems like a distraction. Particularly when Xykon has been sitting at the new gate waiting for the heroes for a long time. It's starting to feel like a Final Fantasy game.

I can only hope that the Durkon subplot ties neatly into the rest. Side stepping to another city with a friend of Elan's Dad and spending the next RL year there is just not the halt in momentum I feel the story can bear.

But that said, I for one would be sad to see these characters go. Perhaps they've got another adventure in them when they're twenty years older?

Spoiler

Show

Maybe history repeats itself and they all go their separate ways to safeguard gates of their own?

That'd be cool. But this story has gone on a very long time. The narrative deserves closure.

The way the story is shaping up, it seems that all the PC's are being set up to have a sequel adventure: Elan and Haley get to overthrown an empire, V gets to travel the world to make amends for the familicide, and Durkon will get to clean a vampire infestation in the dwarven lands (perhaps supported by Roy, if he doesn't die permanently while dealing with the current main plot).

[137beth]

While the Banana already gave the big quote from the Giant, I think there is a recent one relevant to this thread:
This is not a side quest.

[Peelee]

While the Banana already gave the big quote from the Giant, I think there is a recent one relevant to this thread:
This is not a side quest.

Oh, c'mon! I out-banana'd the Banana for once, and get banana'd for it? This is bananas!

[Sir_Norbert]

Sure, the story is about the characters. But it isn't fair for anyone, author or not, to suggest that the characters are all I'm here for. I want them to succeed not just because I like them-- but because they're on a mission that I want to see succeed.

If the Order of the Stick was on a quest to, say, fix the plumbing in the upper east side of Desert Town, I wouldn't have been as interested. Thinking of the gates as purely a McGuffin does a disservice to the story TheGiant has worked to create. This isn't the Crystal of Fire we're talking about here. It's a well written, deep part of the world that we've been guided toward caring about. A true McGuffin is just a thing we've been told we're supposed to care about.

Well said! I don't at all agree with your original post -- I'm hugely enjoying the gradual unravelling of the story and its mysteries and the last thing I want is for them to be hurried to an end -- but I think you raise an important issue here. The people here often link to the Giant's comments as if they were discussion-enders, but it is possible for the Giant to be wrong, even about his own story. In fact, I disagree with pretty much all of the post quoted above.

The Snarl is not a MacGuffin, and its powers do matter. Firstly because the Snarl is, itself, an agent in the conflict: see #945. Laurin may not be a protagonist, but she's a well-developed character and I care what happens to her. Secondly because the Snarl is the reason the entire world is in danger (either directly, if it gets loose, or indirectly, if the gods destroy the world because of it). And I care about this world where I've spent so much time, got to know so many characters, and laughed at so many jokes.

Thirdly, the Snarl matters because of the mystery of the planet in the rift. It's an intriguing development that was completely unexpected at the time, and I'm really curious to see how it will be explained, and what impact this will have on the story. I don't mean I want the answers on a postcard. I mean that I will love every minute of watching the characters speculate and get closer to the answer as they will in the natural course of events.

And yes, it does matter what's in the rift. It's clearly set up to be one of the big mysteries of the story, so naturally we're curious about it and looking forward to a satisfying payoff, as we've gotten with all the previous ongoing mysteries that have now been resolved. It would be hugely disappointing if it turned out to be something mundane -- "Blackwing only saw a cardboard facade that looks like a planet" -- or if it was never revealed at all.

It's the same with Star Wars, really. The attack on the Death Star is meaningful, partly because our protagonists are in danger, but even more because it's an evil empire's weapon of mass destruction and we've come to care about this fictional world and want to see the Empire defeated.

As for the Durkon plot, it's certainly a sidequest, in that the protagonists have a main goal of stopping Xykon, and this is a diversion from it. (Suppose the storylines were reversed, so that Xykon was dealt with first, and then we spent half a book on Durkon's story. It would feel like a huge anticlimax.) But that's not a criticism, because detours like this can be good or even necessary -- as in The Lord of the Rings when Frodo and Sam were picked up by Faramir for a three-chapter detour. That could have been avoided if Tolkien had wanted to tell a slightly shorter story, but in the story as it is, those chapters work as part of the whole. They introduce a new character; they deepen the characterisation of Frodo, Sam and Gollum; they have an impact on later events (when Faramir meets Gandalf); and of course, they contain some excellent writing and are very enjoyable to read.

Anyway, I'm very happy with the current pacing, and I think this arc is one of the best parts of the story so far.

[Darth Paul]

Oh, c'mon! I out-banana'd the Banana for once, and get banana'd for it? This is bananas!

When the Forum gives you bananas, bake bread.

[Murk]

Well said! I don't at all agree with your original post -- I'm hugely enjoying the gradual unravelling of the story and its mysteries and the last thing I want is for them to be hurried to an end -- but I think you raise an important issue here. The people here often link to the Giant's comments as if they were discussion-enders, but it is possible for the Giant to be wrong, even about his own story. In fact, I disagree with pretty much all of the post quoted above.

Agreed.
I don't think this current arc is a sidequest, or even that it is dragging on - far from it. But simply because the author says "this isn't a sidequest" doesn't mean it really isn't to some people.
If you feel the main quest is the gates - then, yes, this is a sidequest. I'm sure it will be neatly tied to the gates somehow, but then it's a sidequest tied to the main quest. The Giant can feel the characters are the main plot, but eh, as a reader you don't have to agree. If you want the weasels search to be a sidekick to a paladin to be the main plot - feel free.

I've been feeling what you said about these discussions for a long time, so I just wanted to give it some attention

[Dr.Zero]

Odd how people actually want this story to end. As quickly as possible, too.

I wouldn't mind if we were at the halfway point only.

I agree. Even if so far I don't like too much this arc, I'm very happy that it exists, so the story can be longer, because the fact that I'm not crazy about this one doesn't mean that it has not good and even great momentsm anyway.