Results 91 to 120 of 202
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2011-04-19, 02:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
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- New York
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Re: I obviously don't understand a wizard's power
My Cleric that uses GMW and Magic Vestment all day begs to differ. This is pretty much the biggest problem with the argument that melee is the best at dealing damage.
By using GMW and Magic Vestment you free up money you would have spent on those weapons to buy things like metamagic rods instead. This, in turn, allows you to quicken your Divine Power with a MM rod. Now you have full BAB, +6 enhancement to Str, and a +X weapon that is just on par with what a non-caster can afford. Oh, and you also have spells. Throw in something like Persisted (even without DMM, this is an amazing feat) Divine Favor and you are a god of war.
Just as an aside, you do have a weakness to Dispel Magic, but Divine Defiance is a nice answer to that, at least for a Cleric.
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2011-04-19, 04:32 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
Re: I obviously don't understand a wizard's power
By the way, how much would a Lesser Rod if Chain Spell cost? Same as a Lesser Maximize (both are +3 slot feats)? Because that's really all a Wizard needs to buff the entire party with GMW.
Let me give you a brief rundown of an average Post-3E Era fight: You attack an enemy and start kicking his shins. He then starts kicking your shins, then you take it in turns kicking until one of you falls over. It basically comes down to who started the battle with the biggest boot, and the only strategy involved is realizing when things have gone tits up and legging it.
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2011-04-19, 05:12 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
- Location
- Finland
Re: I obviously don't understand a wizard's power
Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2011-04-19, 05:35 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2008
- Gender
Re: I obviously don't understand a wizard's power
9000g I think, but I don't have the MiC in front of me. But yes, that became a party item for us when my Transmuter hit high enough level where I could make everyone's weapons +5 all day.
Speaking of Optimization, I played a Transmuter 5/Master Specialist 10/Archmage 2 in a long, ongoing Undead Campaign. I knew I was very powerful so I stuck to casting Slow, Web, Solid Fog and the such. Funny enough, sometimes I'd get bored with it because the two guys focused on damage where so hyper specialized in killing undead, they could wipe out encounters within the first 2 rounds. Their Init mods were insane so they would always go first so sometimes I'd never do anything. Sometimes you just want to throw around Disintegrates.
Part of it was my own fault once I got Polymorph Any Object...I mutated the party it beasts with massive stat bonuses. Turning the archer into an Arrow Demon might have been a mistake...
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2011-04-19, 05:38 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
- Location
- Finland
Re: I obviously don't understand a wizard's power
Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2011-04-19, 08:25 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2007
- Location
- Earth... sort of.
- Gender
Re: I obviously don't understand a wizard's power
Avatar by K penguin. Sash by Damned1rishman.
MOVIE NIGHTS AND LETS PLAYS LIVESTREAMED
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2011-04-19, 09:17 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
Re: I obviously don't understand a wizard's power
To address the barbarian/tier 1 comparison I played in a mid-to-high level game as a wizard, with a druid and a barbarian. I'd say we were similarly optimized, which was only moderately. As a wizard I specialized in evocation but also took other more effective spells and the barbarian had shock trooper and leap attack.
The DM had to design every encounter specifically so the barbarian had something to do and it only worked because we effectively "wasted" turns buffing the barbarian once in combat.
In every game I've played the tiers have been very relevant and clearly reflected in play and since some of us enjoy the mechanical side of D&D as well, being aware of them is super helpful. They're a very useful tool specifically for groups that like a bit of optimization and for everyone to contribute.Last edited by Ormur; 2011-04-19 at 09:18 AM.
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2011-04-19, 11:00 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
- Location
- Mt. Doom
- Gender
Re: I obviously don't understand a wizard's power
You ain't kidden' I don't know how many times I've wanted to smack my players cause they cast fireball on a Devil.
But I think people are missing my point.
Even assuming average uberasation they have completely messed up their tiers.
My players don't care one iota about optimization. They are more likely to take a spell cause it looks kool, than because it will own every encounter.
That is not to say that spell casters can't be powerful. It's just in 20 years of DM'ing they look good on paper, but in actual game play. It is not a problem.
And one last pet peeve of mine. You all do know that you can buff the fighter right? Cast mind blank on them, bull's str, shield of faith, all that good stuff. Just wind em up and let em go. Then you don't even have to get your hands dirty in a fight, and the fighter will thank you for it latter.Remember no matter where you go. There you are.
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2011-04-19, 11:07 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
Re: I obviously don't understand a wizard's power
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2011-04-19, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
- Location
- Finland
Re: I obviously don't understand a wizard's power
Last edited by Greenish; 2011-04-19 at 11:17 AM.
Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2011-04-19, 11:18 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
Re: I obviously don't understand a wizard's power
"It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
You'll never get out of life alive,
So please kill yourself and save this land,
And your last mission is to spread my command,"
Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself
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2011-04-19, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
Re: I obviously don't understand a wizard's power
and many of the best buffs are personal (meaning they require a higher level of cheese to cast on the fighter)
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2011-04-19, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
Re: I obviously don't understand a wizard's power
For clerics yes, but for arcane casters, a lot of their good buffs can be shared/given, haste being the classic example. Also, none of the spells Grommen mentioned were personal ranged, although by the tim e the wizard can cast mindblank the fighter should not be able to benefit from bull strength.
"It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
You'll never get out of life alive,
So please kill yourself and save this land,
And your last mission is to spread my command,"
Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself
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2011-04-19, 12:10 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2007
- Location
- Earth... sort of.
- Gender
Re: I obviously don't understand a wizard's power
I guess the ultimate argument here is
"A well played wizard has a lot more tactical options than even the best barbarian, so keep that in mind."
"That's full of crap! My barbarian always beats my wizard! My wizard always just takes fireball. "
"That's fair, but, you know, your group isn't representative of the whole."
"No, really, he casts FIRE on FIRE IMMUNE enemies. He's not a threat!"
The point here is that there's the potential for a mismatch, especially if your players are exposed to the internet and someone explains how Glitterdust is better than Fireball. Since the guide is posted on the internet it's a fairly safe assumption that they'll eventually start down the road of figuring out what works best.Avatar by K penguin. Sash by Damned1rishman.
MOVIE NIGHTS AND LETS PLAYS LIVESTREAMED
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2011-04-19, 12:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
- Location
- Finland
Re: I obviously don't understand a wizard's power
It's not that you'd need a guide. Might be enough that you stumble on a cool-sounding spell, try it out, and beat an encounter by accident.
Or notice that hey, you can have a pet bear following you around, how cool is that? Hey, what if you turned into a bear yourself, now you have two bears!Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2011-04-19, 12:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2010
- Location
- San Jose, CA
Re: I obviously don't understand a wizard's power
A person unfamiliar with guns can conceivably forget to load bullets into his gun, or load the wrong kind of bullets. A gun can jam, rust, or otherwise malfunction. Also, a gunshot can sometimes miss. Sometimes, especially in the case of a poor marksman, it can go way off-target and even hit an ally. A gun can also run out of bullets at some point and will require reloading - which is a problem, if the user doesn't know how to reload a gun.
None of these is a valid argument to prove a knife being superior to a gun.
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2011-04-19, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Location
- Springfield, MO
- Gender
Re: I obviously don't understand a wizard's power
Master Rahl guide us. Master Rahl teach us. Master Rahl protect us. In your light we thrive. In your mercy we are sheltered. In your wisdom we are humbled. We live to serve. Our lives are yours.
Awesome Richard avatar by kpenguin!
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2011-04-19, 12:50 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2007
- Location
- 500 miles that a way!
Re: I obviously don't understand a wizard's power
The perfect fighter fix.
Hey, the magnificent Shades of gray made me the cool paladin! Give him a hand!
From time to time, I vanish from the boards. Like Frosty, though, I'll be back again some day!
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2011-04-19, 01:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2010
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2011-04-19, 01:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
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2011-04-19, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
- Location
- Yes
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Re: I obviously don't understand a wizard's power
[PF] HP Calculator - Fractional HP, now without math!
[PF] Initiator NPC Templates - Quickly applied maneuvers for DMs.
[PF] Initiator Balance Rule - A lightweight fix to balance casting and martial classes.
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2011-04-19, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2010
- Location
- Connecticolt
- Gender
Re: I obviously don't understand a wizard's power
My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic: The Thread, The Game, The Tumblr.
Human Crossings Avatar made by Thanqol
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2011-04-19, 03:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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- Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
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2011-04-19, 03:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
- Location
- Connecticolt
- Gender
Re: I obviously don't understand a wizard's power
My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic: The Thread, The Game, The Tumblr.
Human Crossings Avatar made by Thanqol
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2011-04-19, 06:07 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2004
- Location
- Hawaii
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Re: I obviously don't understand a wizard's power
Mine too. ^_^ I actually opted against picking fireball for the opposite reason of owning every encounter - because I was trying to make an intentionally underpowered unit.
This does not mean the tier system does not apply!
Heck, your players may pick all of their spells and feats utterly randomly by rolling.
The barbarian will be doing either damage... or nothing relevant. [or tracking, I personally like my barbarians as trackers]
The wizard will be doing damage, summoning balors, sculpting the battlefield, buffing his allies, dominating the king, magic jarring the bad guy's lieutenant, redirecting a river as a standard action... or nothing relevant. [Or tracking, there are a wide array of spells for tracking]
In both cases the characters could be doing nothing relevant. And there is totally nothing wrong with that! I love the ridiculously underpowered game I play in and wouldn't trade it for anything.
The tier system measures the fact that the barbarian can be doing damage or nothing, while the wizard can be doing a wide array of things, two of which are damage or nothing. If you have a gentleman's agreement of 'Wizards shouldn't do that as it's broken', then awesome - you have fixed the problem in one of the myriad of ways the tier system suggests.
And one last pet peeve of mine. You all do know that you can buff the fighter right? Cast mind blank on them, bull's str, shield of faith, all that good stuff. Just wind em up and let em go. Then you don't even have to get your hands dirty in a fight, and the fighter will thank you for it latter.
Really, the batman wizard is ridiculously party-friendly. Blaster wizards, at any level of optimzation, are actually less party friendly since it means the game has tons of toe-stepping, and I know the warmage makes many people in our underoptimized group feel somewhat ancillary when he blows up all the enemies at once with frequency.
This, however, does not solve the problem that the wizrad can do everything, nor does it change that. But remember, the often-touted batman wizard does, indeed, buff his allies, sculpt the battlefield so his allies can murder the enemies, and etc.
As a slight aside, though, I often see people whine that clerics spend more time buffing themselves instead of enemies... and that annoys me, as I went out of my way to play a timid goblin healer cleric in a core game, and then I hit level 7, and had to sit around there and stare.
I mean... there's divine power, which is personal and an extremely obvious choice, and would've made my 10 strength goblin comparable to the frontliners practically by itself due to how underoptimized everyone was. >_>
There's then what... I brought dimensional anchor, but people aren't teleporting everywhere in underoptimized play. Neutralize poison is ridiculously situational and I didn't acutally use it any time I memorized it. Spell Immunity and freedom of movement were like dimensional anchor.
Buffing other people as a cleric in core is difficult. Noncore makes this more plausible, but a lot of people who whine about CoDzilla seem to insist that going all-core makes things better. >_> If Divine Power or Righteous Might were touch I'd use them on the fighter, but they're personal.
And they're just sitting there being obvious picks, since 4th level cleric spells are really dull. Optimizers like planar ally and freedom of movement and stuff, but those aren't as often-used in our games. It didn't take us long to end up with Czilla, since... well, clerics kind of accidentally Czilla in core.
So bah! It doesn't take much to 'cast divine power once' or 'take natural spell' (Really, in core natural spell is the only feat that explicitly requires a druid! If you were a druid and didn't know what you were doing, you'd glance until you saw 'Druid 6' and take it unless your concept was 'I specifically do not want to cast spells as a bear'!)Beginnings usually happen over trifles... even if it's a coincidence...
~ Final Fantasy Tactics
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2011-04-24, 09:37 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
- Location
- Arse end of nowhere, UK
- Gender
Re: I obviously don't understand a wizard's power
So to boil down all of this into one coherant idea on my part I'd have to say this.
A wizard can throw ridiculous magics about, kill hundreds and deal with any situation imaginable, until his spells run out. Or his spellbook is stolen. Or there's an anti-magic field.
A fighter can do a limited array of combat-specific moves indefinitely. He doesn't run out of weapon attacks per day and if his weapon is stolen he merely picks up another one and continues.
D&D has developed from a combat oriented boardgame. Since then whole worlds have emerged, new skills and situations have developed and entire classes have been created to fill the niches of a fully interactive rpg system. BUT, the game fundamentals still concern themselves with combat. As a result, multi-classing has become prevailant as more and more people come to the conclusion that fighter < wizard, rogue < wizard, the correct fighter/rogue mix eats wizards for breakfast.
Each class has it's drawbacks, it's advantages and it's sitautional niches where it truly excels. If anyone is having trouble with game balance then I'd argue they need to have words with their DM.All I ask is a tall ship, and a star to steer her by.
My homebrews Moloques! Sagacious Defender of the Forge, The Open Palm, Sacred Scourge, The Bastion
Co-Developer of the Mutant Powers Project:
World Warper
Telekineticist and ACFs, Feats, Shadow Hand PrC
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2011-04-24, 10:04 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2005
- Location
- Tacoma, WA
- Gender
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2011-04-24, 10:23 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: I obviously don't understand a wizard's power
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2011-04-24, 10:44 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2009
- Location
- Germany
Re: I obviously don't understand a wizard's power
We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.
Spriggan's Den Heroic Fantasy Roleplaying
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2011-04-24, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
Re: I obviously don't understand a wizard's power
Which one? The fake spellbook, the backup spell book or real one?
Yes because they grow on trees. Its a mid level spell with a small range that is centrered on the caster. Its not a big deal, unless dead magic zones are the norm in your game setting.
Aditionally, the options your present means the wizard can do nothing. So its 100% or 0%.
And proceeds to hit less accurately and without the special abilities of his former weapon. Or his item of flight was stolen and now all he can do it shoot for 1d8+1 damage with his bow. Or he gets exhasuted and cannot reach the opponents, or the opponent has miss chance.
A normal game for you is when the wizards reguarly encounter anti-magic fields and have their book stolen?Last edited by Boci; 2011-04-24 at 11:21 AM.
"It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
You'll never get out of life alive,
So please kill yourself and save this land,
And your last mission is to spread my command,"
Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself