Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

[Clistenes]

Aes signatum FTW

BTW, they recently found Roman coins from the time of Constantine the Great beneath a medieval castle in Japan. I guess that they got around.

https://www.google.de/amp/world.gree...-in-japan/amp/

Japan didn't mint its own coins until the Edo period, save some minor attempts to copy chinese copper coins, so it imported a lot of foreign coins, mostly China's copper currency...

As for Byzantium, they imported chinese silk, so it wasn't so strange for their coins to end in China.

Japan and China had at times a diplomatic envoys/gift exchange/official trade system in place, and most items exchanged were coin, precious materials and luxury wares.

What I find surprising is the date. Japan didn't really opened to the outside world until centuries after Constantine's time... they were literally prehistoric (as, they didn't even know how to write) during Constantine's reign. Both American and Japanese media tend to portray Japanese culture as ancient, but they are babies when compared to China or Europe...

[Brother Oni]

Huh, guess 3.5 dropped that

Yes, the last version of D&D I played was the Red Box edition, so pre-dating even AD&D.

God I feel old now...

[Yora]

I was looking for new options for fantasy armor that don't look like the common medieval knight or samurai types but are also closely based on armor that actually exists and looks cool, and I came across this:

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It looks very realistic and perhaps even authentic and also satisfies my wishes for looking badass. Heavy, but also a bit low tech. I like it.

What can you tell me about it?

I guess it would be lamellar over a mail hauberg and a spectacle helmet with a mail aventail. But does this combination have an established name and does it have any noteworthy traits compared to other types of medieval armor?

[snowblizz]

The armour is types that were common to Eastern Europe, Russia and further into the steppes. You'll note those are Russian reanactors.

The syle is of the 11th-13th centuries about. It's going to look rather strange since it combines Scandinavian, European, Byzantine, Steppe and Islamo-turcic features. In no particular order.

And is indeed a mail hauberk underneath scale and lamellar cuirasses. Does it have a name? Probably, my guess whatever "armour" is in Russian or some other slavic language. Someone more versed in eastern europe stuff can probably give a better anwser.

Not sure there's anything spectacularly noteworthy, other than that the style is strongly mixed from various influences. Obviously draws heavily from the steppe lineage of mounted archer warfare being scale/lamellar for flexibility. I'm a strong believer in lamellar amrour is lamellar armour, plate armour is plate armour (whether made in the West or East)and there's not a lot of point in trying to find categorisation that weren't relevant for the people using it.

[Yora]

I didn't know about the Byzantine influence, but it's really apparent now.

Byzantine design is actually a really cool reference for fantasy cultures. A nice blend of Roman, Persian, and medieval influences, and one which I think I've never really seen used before. Could be a great fit for the big southern city states in my new setting.

[Clistenes]

The armour is types that were common to Eastern Europe, Russia and further into the steppes. You'll note those are Russian reanactors.

The syle is of the 11th-13th centuries about. It's going to look rather strange since it combines Scandinavian, European, Byzantine, Steppe and Islamo-turcic features. In no particular order.

And is indeed a mail hauberk underneath scale and lamellar cuirasses. Does it have a name? Probably, my guess whatever "armour" is in Russian or some other slavic language. Someone more versed in eastern europe stuff can probably give a better anwser.

Not sure there's anything spectacularly noteworthy, other than that the style is strongly mixed from various influences. Obviously draws heavily from the steppe lineage of mounted archer warfare being scale/lamellar for flexibility. I'm a strong believer in lamellar amrour is lamellar armour, plate armour is plate armour (whether made in the West or East)and there's not a lot of point in trying to find categorisation that weren't relevant for the people using it.

I have seen similar armor in museums or online galleries, but they tended to have the small plates riveted directly on the mail (or replacing pieces of mail) rather than made as a separate suit of armor. Just google turkish or persian armor...

[Kiero]

Lamellar is much, much older than 11th-13th century. There are examples of it in the same region in antiquity, over a millenia earlier.

[Yora]

So is mail. But the helmets make a pretty narrow time period iidentifiable.

[HeadlessMermaid]

So is mail. But the helmets make a pretty narrow time period iidentifiable.

The first picture is Russian armour, 10th-11th century.

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The 2nd is obviously inspired by Byzantine armour (very similar with what the Rus used), and the imagery is from all over including an Orthodox St. George killing the dragon, a Celtic cross, an English lion...

If you want some quick visuals, go to Google Images and search for "Byzantine armour Osprey" (or Russian, etc). From there you can either pick what pleases you aesthetically, or, if you want to simulate something specific, focus on a period/region and refine your search.

[Kiero]

So is mail. But the helmets make a pretty narrow time period iidentifiable.

Looks like a konos helm with a bit of chasing/repoussé work on it. They're pretty old too.

[Vinyadan]

You probably can see that sort of armour in Eisenstein's Aleksandr Nevsky, if you like old movies.

[Martin Greywolf]

On Russian armor

Don't equate Russian with eastern European, and don't forget that Russia at this time doesn't exist - even less so than, say, Germany. Russian armor has one very specific origin that more southern parts of eastern Europe lack - Scandinavia. The gist of it is that Scandinavian colonization efforts during the viking age led to a whole lot of what is modern Ukraine, Russia, Crimea and Turkey being inhabited by Scandinavian-origin colonists that then sort of merged with local communities into sort of a hybrid.

Most well known example of this is the Varangian Guard in Byzantium, the equipment they used was essentially the same as that of the "Russian" area, mostly because that is exactly where they came from. Lamellar armor itself is harder to trace to its origins, but I'd say it was ultimately either Parthia or China - the style was widely used on the steppes, often for leather armor.

As you go south, however, differences swiftly emerge, even between Slavic tribes. Northern Slavs adopted more of a viking style to their arms and armor, southern tended to have more of a thing of their own, mostly influenced by germanic stuff, although this is a bit of a chicken or the egg thing. You see stuff like different axe heads, southern Slavs using strapped shields and later much quicker adoption of crossbows.

Eastern Europe armor c1000

You tend to see three three spheres of influence, let's call them western, nomad and russian. Western is your mailed knight, you folks described russian one pretty well here and nomad is lightly armored horse archer, with heavy units being less common and equipped more like the russian ones (also different base clothes and padded armor solutions).

Of the local kingdoms, area of modern Russia has mostly russian style with some nomad, Poland has russian combined with some western in roughly 50/50 ratio, Hungary has western with some Russian and nomad influence thrown in and Byzantium has an even mix of all - one thing they seemed to excel at was taking good ideas from foreign armies and organizing them better. Serbia, Bulgaria and the rest of the Balkans have Hungary-like equipment with varying degrees of nomad and Byzantine influence. Nomads themselves have their own style with whatever they managed to acquire via plunder, trade or bribes, seeing some of them with chinese weapons/armor isn't that unusual.

One notable detail is that mercenaries are used freely, and it's nothing unusual to see Hungarian army sacking a Polish city with reinforcements from Byzantium, all the while both sackers and sackees employ nomad mercenries or allied chieftains.

[rrgg]

We've discussed the subject of early modern armor before in these threads. I came across this section from James Turner's 1683 *Pallas Armata* where he laments the fact that modern soldiers typically don't wear armor any more.

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It seems that to his contemporaries, one of the main issues with armor was its inconvenience.

. . . because the long and continuated marches of our Modern Armies, not only for many days, but for many weeks and months, both in the extream heat of Summer, and the rainy and tempestuous weather of winter, require that the Souldiers should be eased of the weight and trouble of their Defensive Arms, that when less toyl they may endure and undergo those marches.

He disagrees, however.

To which I shall answer, first that we have no such Marches now adays, as the Ancients, especially the Romans had. . .

He also argues that if the souldiers trained and exercised in armor every day, they would get used to the weight.

On the subject of armored horsemen:

Here I must answer an Objection, which is this, if the armour for Horsemen be not Musket-proof, either the Bullet pierceth through, or beats the Iron into the Horsemans bod, which is equally dangerous; if it be proof, it is exceeding troublesome to both man and horse; but I answer that there hath been, and are at this day Arms made that are proof, and of no considerable weight, and it is supposed a Curiassier should be of a strong body, and should ride a horse that for height and strength should be fit for that service. . .

According to him then, in 1683 it was possible to make armor that was both musket-proof and relatively lightweight. So perhaps the knowledge of how to make high quality steel armor hadn't been completely lost. It might also be in part due to the fact that the typical musket in Turner's day had become slightly weaker, (shooting a 1.33 oz. ball instead of a 2 oz. ball like the 16th century Spanish musket did).

That he says "either the Bullet pierceth through, or beats the Iron into the Horsemans bod, which is equally dangerous" is interesting to me. Perhaps one of the reason makers started to prefer softer, wrought-iron plates was a concern that harder plates might come out too brittle, sending shrapnel into the wearer when struck? Unfortunately I don't know enough about metallurgy to tell if that would be true.

[Vitruviansquid]

Let's say you were magically transported back in time with nothing but the clothes on your back. You end up in the court of a historical monarch, who is skeptical of your claim to be from the future. He (or she) tells you, "teach me one thing from the future that I can implement right now that my armies can use on campaign, and I will make you an advisor in my court and reward you richly. However, if the technology you would teach me does not help me, or cannot be adequately explained by you, or cannot be implemented, then I will know you are a charlatan and I will execute you."

What would you teach the monarch?

What if this monarch was Alexander the Great? What if it was Constantine? What if it was William the Conquerer? Genghis Khan? Oda Nobunaga, assuming he's already learned about matchlock guns?

Edit: challenge mode: the technology cannot involve gunpowder

[Blackhawk748]

Let's say you were magically transported back in time with nothing but the clothes on your back. You end up in the court of a historical monarch, who is skeptical of your claim to be from the future. He (or she) tells you, "teach me one thing from the future that I can implement right now that my armies can use on campaign, and I will make you an advisor in my court and reward you richly. However, if the technology you would teach me does not help me, or cannot be adequately explained by you, or cannot be implemented, then I will know you are a charlatan and I will execute you."

What would you teach the monarch?

What if this monarch was Alexander the Great? What if it was Constantine? What if it was William the Conquerer? Genghis Khan? Oda Nobunaga, assuming he's already learned about matchlock guns?

That really depends on the period. I'd have to take a look at what they already have to know what i could improve or flat out make up. I mean, something as simple as a scalpel with basic medical hygiene could do it depending on the period.

And in order:

1.Crossbows
2.Crossbows
3.Crossbows
4. Clear lines of succession
5. Flintlocks and rifled cannons

[Vinyadan]

Camping toilets? Soap? TNT? A compass?

Soap was actually the idea of two scientists in a short story by Primo Levi. They had been studying a native tribe of the Amazon, where useless people were killed due to very low resources, and had therefore been imprisoned and sought for ideas to show that they were useful before their scheduled execution.

[Galloglaich]

I was looking for new options for fantasy armor that don't look like the common medieval knight or samurai types but are also closely based on armor that actually exists and looks cool, and I came across this:

Spoiler

Show

It looks very realistic and perhaps even authentic and also satisfies my wishes for looking badass. Heavy, but also a bit low tech. I like it.

What can you tell me about it?

I guess it would be lamellar over a mail hauberg and a spectacle helmet with a mail aventail. But does this combination have an established name and does it have any noteworthy traits compared to other types of medieval armor?

There was a specific type of armor panoply that the Byzantines used called "Klibanion" or "Klivanion" (κλιβάνιον), which consisted of lamellar over mail with some other plates or strips of iron (very loosely analogous to what Gary Gygax used to call 'split mail') on some of the limbs.

This was considered effective but heavy and was mainly worn by Clibanari / Cataphract heavy-cavalry. The Byzantine Anna Comnena describes a Byzantine noble being hit with a full lance charge which knocked him half out of his saddle, but being unharmed due to his klibanion. The word seems to be linked to the name for cavalry - so it means something like 'armor of the oven men'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klivanion

The Swedish Varangians and Rus / Russians seem to have adopted this at least some of the time, though it's unclear how popular it really was.

By the High Middle Ages in Rus city-states you start to see indications of something which looks similar but is a bit different - mail armor with small iron or steel plates linked into the mail itself. This seems to be unique to the Rus areas (Russia, Ukraine, Belarus etc.) and into Central Asia as you don't really see it in other parts of Europe. This armor is sometimes called 'Bakhterets' or ''Yushman' but is also known by many other terms, in Rus lands and also in Persia, India, Turkey etc.

There are some threads on this type of armor in Myarmoury which is probably your best open-to-the-public source.

https://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=7075

This is a re-enactor wearing some



And this is some antique armor of that type. It's pretty cool looking and probably a bit better protection against arrows than just regular mail, but not nearly as heavy as all the layers of Klibanion.

These are Russian:





I think this one is Persian or South Asian



This is a full panoply, I think Russian



Closeup of armor

Spoiler: Yushman closeup

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Some Russian artists from the 19th and early 20th Century made very accurate depictions of this type of armor, for example many by Viktor Vasnetsov as you can see here:

Spoiler: Vasnetsov

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Those guys in the paintings, incidentally, are Bogatyr, a special type of Rus knight-errant of whom there was quite a rich body of literature, mainly from Veliky Novgorod, one of the great Rus city-states - arguably the greatest in the medieval period, though eclipsed by Muscovy in the late 15th Century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogatyr

You can go into a really fun rabbit-hole reading about those dudes. Great RPG story-hook fodder.

G

[Max_Killjoy]

Vasnetsov's Knight at the Crossroads has a very Witcher video game vibe to it.

Would not surprise me if the creative people behind that franchise were familiar with his work.

[Galloglaich]

Let's say you were magically transported back in time with nothing but the clothes on your back. You end up in the court of a historical monarch, who is skeptical of your claim to be from the future. He (or she) tells you, "teach me one thing from the future that I can implement right now that my armies can use on campaign, and I will make you an advisor in my court and reward you richly. However, if the technology you would teach me does not help me, or cannot be adequately explained by you, or cannot be implemented, then I will know you are a charlatan and I will execute you."

What would you teach the monarch?

What if this monarch was Alexander the Great? What if it was Constantine?

I would explain how to smelt and forge steel and how to heat-treat it to make large swords, springs (like crossbow prods) and steel armor.

What if it was William the Conquerer?

I would show him how to use the cam slider and cam shaft to build a Barcelona hammer and a Catalan forge & a blast furnace to create steel on a large scale. I would teach him / them how to use war-wagons with crossbows. I would teach him the use of the rudder, the keel and the compass and the advantages of the lateen sail. I would show him how to convert stamping mills into paper mills and how to modify an olive press for wood-block printing (I lack the metalurgical skill to make movable type fonts).

I would reveal the (Arab and Greek) sources to use for the formulae and techniques necessary to distill acids used in mining such as Aqua Regia and Aqua Fortis.

I would show him some advanced techniques for making cyphers he might not be familiar with (though he might).

Genghis Khan? Oda Nobunaga, assuming he's already learned about matchlock guns?

Edit: challenge mode: the technology cannot involve gunpowder

I think it would be so unethical to give any technological / military aid to Genghis Khan that I hope I would have the courage to let him execute me instead. He killed enough people as it was! Teaching the other tyrants would be bad enough.

If i was too cowardly for that I would teach him the same things as William the Conquerer or maybe some siege techniques.

Kublai Khan apparently asked Marco Polo to teach him memory palace techniques and the Seven Liberal Arts so I could get into some of that, at least on a general level if they were interested.

G

[Galloglaich]

Vasnetsov's Knight at the Crossroads has a very Witcher video game vibe to it.

Would not surprise me if the creative people behind that franchise were familiar with his work.

I would say that is pretty much guaranteed. Andrzej Sapkowski is very familiar with the history and mythology of Poland and the whole region around it, and I think most people in that part of the world are familiar with Vasnetsov and a whole constellation of other artists and authors, much as we in the West know Tolkein and Robert E. Howard and so on.

G

[Galloglaich]

The big one in Poland is Henryk Sienkiewicz
whose 'With Fire and Sword' historical novels are probably comparable to Tolkein for Eastern Europe. And a variant of Mount and Blade though i have never tried it.

[Vitruviansquid]

That really depends on the period. I'd have to take a look at what they already have to know what i could improve or flat out make up. I mean, something as simple as a scalpel with basic medical hygiene could do it depending on the period.

And in order:

1.Crossbows
2.Crossbows
3.Crossbows
4. Clear lines of succession
5. Flintlocks and rifled cannons

I'm very certain crossbows have been around since Constantine, if not Alexander the Great. Maybe you could justify an upgrade to a particular part of the crossbow? As I understand, Romans have been using technologies like it since before Constantine, in the form of larger scale catapults and scorpions.

I expect Genghis Khan knows about how non-Mongolians work succession, especially if we are talking about him after a few conquests, and he merely prefers traditional succession?

I'm actually curious what kinds of pre-requisites rifled cannons have. Were they only made possible after certain advancements in metallurgy, or would they have been possible but not obvious to Oda Nobunaga? According to Wikipedia's entry on "Rifling," the technique was known since the 16th century, but not widely used until the 19th century because black powder would foul the barrels.

Camping toilets? Soap? TNT? A compass?

Soap was actually the idea of two scientists in a short story by Primo Levi. They had been studying a native tribe of the Amazon, where useless people were killed due to very low resources, and had therefore been imprisoned and sought for ideas to show that they were useful before their scheduled execution.

I wonder how it plays out in your head to explain how to make TNT to Alexander the Great.

[Blackhawk748]

I'm very certain crossbows have been around since Constantine, if not Alexander the Great. Maybe you could justify an upgrade to a particular part of the crossbow? As I understand, Romans have been using technologies like it since before Constantine, in the form of larger scale catapults and scorpions.

I expect Genghis Khan knows about how non-Mongolians work succession, especially if we are talking about him after a few conquests, and he merely prefers traditional succession?

I'm actually curious what kinds of pre-requisites rifled cannons have. Were they only made possible after certain advancements in metallurgy, or would they have been possible but not obvious to Oda Nobunaga? According to Wikipedia's entry on "Rifling," the technique was known since the 16th century, but not widely used until the 19th century because black powder would foul the barrels.

They were, they just didnt use them in war in Europe until much later (for whatever strange reason). Apparently they where great for bird hunting though.

That was mostly a joke.

The fouling is why i went with cannons, its a bit easier to clean them than a musket. The other reason was it was more work for not a huge improvement. Im going with it cuz im not sure if Japan was aware of it at the time.

I wonder how it plays out in your head to explain how to make TNT to Alexander the Great.

"I want you to imagine a miniature Volcano...."

[Vinyadan]

Make aqua regia, add silver (obtain nitric acid).
Mix fuming nitric acid with starch or wood fiber.
Blow it up.

This wasn't TNT, it was xyloïdin. Ask Alexander the Great if he wants more and better.

[Yora]

Byzantium has an even mix of all - one thing they seemed to excel at was taking good ideas from foreign armies and organizing them better.

No surprise. They are Romans, after all.

[snowblizz]

Lamellar is much, much older than 11th-13th century. There are examples of it in the same region in antiquity, over a millenia earlier.

That's not what I said.

I said the type of armour pictured is from that about that period and place based on all the other evidence in the pictures. I went and cross referenced with 2 Osprey books on Russian* medieval troops. One of the pictures looks like it is *from* an Osprey book.
The Fireforge games picture is from their Medieval Russian infantry, placed around the time of Alexandre Nevsky. So yea, I'm going with about 11-13th century, give or take a century at each end.

*not actually Russian Russian, but that's the only place I would expect the average reader to find on a map.

[Martin Greywolf]

I would say that is pretty much guaranteed. Andrzej Sapkowski is very familiar with the history and mythology of Poland and the whole region around it, and I think most people in that part of the world are familiar with Vasnetsov and a whole constellation of other artists and authors, much as we in the West know Tolkein and Robert E. Howard and so on.

G

Not really, only internationally known authors among the former Soviet block are Sapkowski and maybe Sienkiewicz and Lukjanenko. The reasons behind this mostly run down to borderline fetish all of the former Soviets got for western works after the curtain fell, with a solid dash of nationalistic and anti-soviet animosities. There's not an awful lot of cultural cross-linking going on here.

Even Sienkiewicz is more of a catholic and historical fiction writer than anything like Tolkien, his most well known work by far around here is Quo Vadis, especially since Fire and Sword has a lot of Polish nationalism, so a lot of non-Poles find it a bit too on the nose. If you're looking for LotR in Eastern Europe, Sapkowski's Narrenturm trilogy should be your first stop, being based on Hussite wars with a dash of magic thrown in.

You may also notice all of these people mostly got their fame post-1989, that is not a coincidence. Fantasy and most of the sci fi were discouraged at best and imprisonable offense at worst before that, so you don't really have Tolkien-like figures with both a wide influence and a long time for that influence to spread. The closest would probably be Strugatsky brothers.

tl;dr Most people in my part of world have no idea who Vasnetsov is, let alone know a constellation of authors. Eastern European Tolkien and Howard are, well, Tolkien and Howard, and you have to be a pretty big fantasy fan to know anything other than the Witcher. Even most local TTRPGs are either re-skins of DnD, attempts at simulating the Witcher verse or both, with few notable exceptions.

[snowblizz]

Not really, only internationally known authors among the former Soviet block are Sapkowski and maybe Sienkiewicz and Lukjanenko. The reasons behind this mostly run down to borderline fetish all of the former Soviets got for western works after the curtain fell, with a solid dash of nationalistic and anti-soviet animosities. There's not an awful lot of cultural cross-linking going on here.

Even Sienkiewicz is more of a catholic and historical fiction writer than anything like Tolkien, his most well known work by far around here is Quo Vadis, especially since Fire and Sword has a lot of Polish nationalism, so a lot of non-Poles find it a bit too on the nose. If you're looking for LotR in Eastern Europe, Sapkowski's Narrenturm trilogy should be your first stop, being based on Hussite wars with a dash of magic thrown in.

tl;dr Most people in my part of world have no idea who Vasnetsov is, let alone know a constellation of authors. Eastern European Tolkien and Howard are, well, Tolkien and Howard, and you have to be a pretty big fantasy fan to know anything other than the Witcher.

I think what G meant was that they could have been generally known and shared cultural aspects, the few who haven't read Tolkien in the west can sorta pin it down to elfs and halflings or some such, not necessarily Soviet-hobbits (though that would probably be it's own kind of awesome). I think you make a fair point about the system not being so fond of flights of fancy, fairytales, fantasy and such belonging to a "mysticism" box along with religion. At least that's the impression I get. It seems sci-fi was more a communist thing, especially the stuff showing the brave new world of technology and progress it was gonna lead to. Star Trek but waaay over the top sort of. Didn't Asimov write a lot of his stuff under the suffocating blanket of Soviet censors? IIRC some things he did was clearly painting socialism better to appease the world around him?

[Max_Killjoy]

I think what G meant was that they could have been generally known and shared cultural aspects, the few who haven't read Tolkien in the west can sorta pin it down to elfs and halflings or some such, not necessarily Soviet-hobbits (though that would probably be it's own kind of awesome). I think you make a fair point about the system not being so fond of flights of fancy, fairytales, fantasy and such belonging to a "mysticism" box along with religion. At least that's the impression I get. It seems sci-fi was more a communist thing, especially the stuff showing the brave new world of technology and progress it was gonna lead to. Star Trek but waaay over the top sort of. Didn't Asimov write a lot of his stuff under the suffocating blanket of Soviet censors? IIRC some things he did was clearly painting socialism better to appease the world around him?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Asimov

His family left the USSR for the US when he was three.

[Vinyadan]

Zamyatin and Bulgakov, good times. Although they are more satirical than hard sci fi.