Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

[Lacuna Caster]

Hinjo mentions Miko is often sent away because she gets on everyone elses nerves. He might not have had enough opportunity. Also Miko's personality isn't very flexible. She is the Chosen One after all.

Yeah, but that's a chicken-egg argument (unless Miko is already particularly grating during the got-his-scar story?)

If her behaviour was really that much of problem, the correct thing to do would be to tell her as much, with the stipulation that she needs to do better or won't get promoted in the organisation. Whereas she is actually raised to second-in-command of the guard.

[Keltest]

Yeah, but that's a chicken-egg argument (unless Miko is already particularly grating during the got-his-scar story?)

If her behaviour was really that much of problem, the correct thing to do would be to tell her as much, with the stipulation that she needs to do better or won't get promoted in the organisation. Whereas she is actually raised to second-in-command of the guard.

I'm not sure that's accurate. She says she's the most powerful, but she's also a field agent sent off by herself for great lengths of time. That isn't a situation that says "important link in the hierarchy" to me.

[hamishspence]

She claims to be "highest ranking paladin" here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html

but she may have confused "number of paladin levels" with hierarchial importance.

That, or Shojo gave her a high "title rank" but carefully kept her on mission and gave someone else the command job. Might there be clerics in the organization that outrank her?

[Lacuna Caster]

We've already seen her admonishing Hinjo, which suggests that she's pretty high up in the organisation. I agree that it is deeply puzzling for someone of senior rank to be sent on long solo missions that are either actively dangerous or amount to convenient busywork, but that appears to be what happened.

Even if Miko is only of high rank in the honorary sense, or among the paladins (I assume the High Priest of the 12 would have some cachet?), then the basic problem is still the same. To whatever extent she went about paladin-ing the wrong way, she was being rewarded for it.

[factotum]

The thing is, if Miko is being truthful (and non-delusional) when she says she's the highest-ranking Paladin in the Guard, that means that the post of Sapphire Guard Commander no longer exists and that Shojo *did* take over direct control of the organisation after the events of this book. It's entirely possible that Shojo, or whoever else was in command if this theory is not correct, chose to keep O-Chul and Miko apart due to the history between them.

[Kish]

If he did, that was extraordinarily stupid of him, given that he would have done so--separating Miko from perhaps the only other member of the Sapphire Guard she explicitly deferred to and addressed as a mentor with Gin-Jun gone, and the Sapphire Guard member with the best moral compass--based entirely on an erroneous assumption of hostility between them.

(I think it's entirely possible based on what's shown in the story that Shojo had enough contempt for paladins to deliberately attempt to maintain Miko as a kind of living weapon he could direct rather than helping her to develop a moral code that might one day have led to her standing against him the same way O-Chul stood against Gin-Jun, but Rich's words on the subject suggest that this is not the impression of Shojo I am supposed to have.)

[Lacuna Caster]

I'm inclined to speculate in that direction too, given that O-Chul's posting under Shojo wasn't exactly drenched in honour. Something about keeping your enemies closer?

[Jasdoif]

(I think it's entirely possible based on what's shown in the story that Shojo had enough contempt for paladins to deliberately attempt to maintain Miko as a kind of living weapon he could direct rather than helping her to develop a moral code that might one day have led to her standing against him the same way O-Chul stood against Gin-Jun, but Rich's words on the subject suggest that this is not the impression of Shojo I am supposed to have.)

Actually, if you ratchet it back half a step I can easily see Shojo viewing his adopted daughter as also being a high-leveled presence to dissuade the Sapphire Guard from acting against him, and being as clueless with Miko's moral development as he was with Gin-Jun's moral decisions. Shojo recognized that she needed discipline, but discipline and guidance aren't the same thing; and I seriously doubt Miko's belief that the Twelve Gods had a special destiny in mind for her is something that originated from the members of the Sapphire Guard.

[Grey Watcher]

Yeah, I'm just inclined to wonder where O-Chul was for the next 12 years. It seems like promoting him to mentor-in-command would have offered opportunities to say 'uh, Miko, that wasn't quite what I meant.'

It was exactly one conversation. And, as I said, without the context of the main narrative and Miko's eventual Fall, it's not nearly as ominous or disconcerting. He probably did do his part to guide her, but it ultimately couldn't overcome, among other things, her ego.

Plus, he does, quite literally say "Uh, well, that's not exactly what I meant." Miko interrupts the next sentence to say what amounts to "KTHXBYE!"

[Lacuna Caster]

I don't think this really gets around the point I'm driving at: To whatever extent Miko was failing to 'get it', the appropriate response was not medals and stripes.

What was the exact exchange? I gather there two points of advice- (A) sometimes being disliked means you're doing people a favour, and (B) never put up with a corrupt superior. What did she take out of it?

[Peelee]

I don't think this really gets around the point I'm driving at: To whatever extent Miko was failing to 'get it', the appropriate response was not medals and stripes.

So much as your point is "the Giant does not share my exact values and is not telling the story exactly how I would," you are correct.

It was a small conversation that explained a bit of how Miko came to be the way she was. There was no giant shining beacon with glowing lights saying "PAY ATTENTION HERE" to O-Chul, much less anyone else in the story.

[Lacuna Caster]

To be clear, I'm not saying this is O-Chul's fault, and if I squint hard enough, I can even imagine some plausibly well-meaning reasons for why Shojo might behave this way (though they don't make him look very sharp.) I can also appreciate that the author took the time and trouble to try and flesh out her development in a way that at least doesn't make her look actively noxious. (Again, so far as I can gather.) But... when it comes to how certain elements of upper management were behaving, this only raises more questions.

[Peelee]

But... when it comes to how certain elements of upper management were behaving, this only raises more questions.

It really doesn't.

[Grey Watcher]

I don't think this really gets around the point I'm driving at: To whatever extent Miko was failing to 'get it', the appropriate response was not medals and stripes.

What was the exact exchange? I gather there two points of advice- (A) sometimes being disliked means you're doing people a favour, and (B) never put up with a corrupt superior. What did she take out of it?

I'm leery of the IP/copyright legal ramifications of outright transcribing, but (A) is spot on and (B) is more like if people are doing Bad Things in your name, you need to either dissociate from them (eg expatriate) or do what you can to counter or prevent the Bad Things (for O-Chul, this is being the first common-born Sapphire Guardsman in the hopes that the order will be better acquainted with the effects they have on the lives of commoners).

Miko misconstrues this as "those who betray Azure City must be stopped by any means necessary." And then excuses herself before O-Chul can explain her error.

As Peelee said, it's just a little exchange that allows O-Chul to articulate his reasoning so we the audience can read it; Miko's response ismore like an Easter egg for people who've read the main comic. (Since that's almost certainly literally everyone reading the story, I'm not sure that you can really call it an Easter egg?

Miko's role in the story is essentially an extended cameo.

[Kish]

Personality conflicts aside, the Sapphire Guard apparently had quite a strict hierarchy and O-Chul was a new recruit. It is unsurprising that Shojo didn't immediately put him in command; one can derive different conclusions from Shojo having no idea that his adopted daughter was a danger to herself and others (and mine would be generally unkind to Shojo), but immediately putting a new recruit in charge of the Sapphire Guard, replacing a commander who had come up through the hierarchy and was herself a good paladin who had effectively conspired with the new recruit to remove her corrupt commander while still following the paladin code--well, it would have been quite a baroque solution, even had Shojo recognized that there was a problem.

[factotum]

If he did, that was extraordinarily stupid of him

We're talking a guy who thought the best solution to his nobles trying to kill him was to feign senility for years--he's clearly not beyond making some really daft decisions.

[snowblizz]

We're talking a guy who thought the best solution to his nobles trying to kill him was to feign senility for years--he's clearly not beyond making some really daft decisions.

And the decision he decide to fight tooth and nail for was Meatloaf Day.

[Thufir]

We're talking a guy who thought the best solution to his nobles trying to kill him was to feign senility for years--he's clearly not beyond making some really daft decisions.

I'd question characterising that as a daft decision given that it apparently worked exactly as intended.

[Kish]

And by "exactly as intended," you mean "as soon as he died the government fell apart and the second most powerful nobleman in the city had the ability and the inclination to immediately attempt to assassinate the new Lord," right?

"He didn't get killed" is a pretty low bar to clear*. Everyone still in the comic has managed to clear it, for example, so clearly faking senility isn't a requirement for it.

*Despite which, Shojo actually didn't clear it. Which makes your statement entirely based on proof by assertion: it didn't accomplish anything but keeping him alive and it didn't accomplish keeping him alive either, but it accomplished...something...that justifies it.

[Peelee]

"He didn't get killed" is a pretty low bar to clear. Everyone still in the comic has managed to clear it, for example

Well, Roy and Durkon.

I agree with your overall sentiment.

[factotum]

Yeah, feigning senility may have extended Shojo's own life, but it really messed up Azure City--a point I believe the Giant has made, but for some reason I can't find the quote thread to check that out?

[Peelee]

Yeah, feigning senility may have extended Shojo's own life, but it really messed up Azure City--a point I believe the Giant has made, but for some reason I can't find the quote thread to check that out?

I believe this is what you're looking for:

You can't separate the fact that his government fell apart when Shojo died, because that was a direct result of him kneecapping that government over the years so that it depended on him, personally. Shojo was handed a Lawful system and made it more Chaotic than it was before, so that only his own personal scheming was holding it together.

Although there's also this:

If you take away the external threat of Xykon, the most likely outcome of Shojo's rule is that he dies (whether from Miko or old age), and the more Lawful Hinjo takes over. He reforms the system and the nobles either fall in line or get crushed by his much larger army. The only reason Kubota takes the risky actions he takes is because Hinjo has virtually no army anymore, and Kubota has no ancestral holdings to lose. It is a highly unusual vulnerability on Hinjo's part that certainly could not have been predicted by Shojo.

[Jasdoif]

....but for some reason I can't find the quote thread to check that out?

The Index of the Giant's Comments thread is past the default 45 day cutoff for the forum's thread view (the last post was 67 days ago). You can adjust the cutoff at the bottom of the page (in the non-mobile view), or find the thread directly through some means like my signature (which I'm now going to pretend is why I have the link in my signature in the first place).

[Kish]

Well, Roy and Durkon.

I agree with your overall sentiment.

Amend it to "he didn't get killed permanently." We don't actually know how many times Shojo got killed and resurrected before Miko finally killed him.

[Emanick]

Amend it to "he didn't get killed permanently." We don't actually know how many times Shojo got killed and resurrected before Miko finally killed him.

Good point.

I'd never actually paused to consider how much more difficult Shojo's position must have made an assassin's job. It's got to be much more difficult to assassinate a head of state if you know his staff has access to clerics who can cast Resurrection.

[MReav]

Something that I have been thinking about: people are surprised she was taking advice from other people, given her delusions, but I remember reading in the author's notes that Miko had gone from orphan to samurai and major member of an order of paladins safeguarding all of reality. Here she's a mere acolyte. While she might have the seeds of ego and destiny, it is probably too early in her development for it to fully manifest, hence why she's more willing to take advice.

[Lacuna Caster]

Meatloaf is an essential part of a balanced diet and I support this initiative.

I'd never actually paused to consider how much more difficult Shojo's position must have made an assassin's job. It's got to be much more difficult to assassinate a head of state if you know his staff has access to clerics who can cast Resurrection.

Yeah... it's more that he was eventually killed under circumstances where he didn't consider it worth the bother of coming back. (Actually following through on the social ramifications of D&D rules leads to Tippyverse terrain pretty quickly, however, where the hypothetical assassin is probably an invisible teleporting mage with disintegrate or soul bind who puts the tier-4 classes out of work. V, in other words.)

It is rather fun to imagine a version of the story that unfolded under variant rules where resurrection and teleport spells are just barely available, but sufficiently rare and costly that even the authorities can't trivially rely on it. However, I'm not sure that the author's official stance on Shojo's beneficence is independently convincing- if nothing else, Shojo couldn't reliably predict when he'd die of old age, thus potentially leaving Hinjo with a lot of plates to juggle before any reforms could occur.

[Lacuna Caster]

Something that I have been thinking about: people are surprised she was taking advice from other people, given her delusions, but I remember reading in the author's notes that Miko had gone from orphan to samurai and major member of an order of paladins safeguarding all of reality. Here she's a mere acolyte. While she might have the seeds of ego and destiny, it is probably too early in her development for it to fully manifest, hence why she's more willing to take advice.

Personality conflicts aside, the Sapphire Guard apparently had quite a strict hierarchy and O-Chul was a new recruit.

No, I can see the logic to not immediately promoting O-Chul- I just don't see the particular logic to promoting Miko faster than the guy with actual leadership skills, given they both got in at the ground floor.

I'm still of the opinion that expecting the Gods to send messages to their top-tier mortal emissaries is entirely reasonable in the universe that Miko inhabits. Regardless of how human superiors behaved, would it have killed Rooster and Co. to send an omen or two to Sangwaan about the impending army of orange doom, given they were apparently hovering anxiously overhead, ready to hit the Fall button?

[Peelee]

Meatloaf is an essential part of a balanced diet and I support this initiative.

I choose to believe that Shojo had excellent taste in music, if a bit too evangelistic about it.

However, I'm not sure that the author's official stance on Shojo's beneficence is independently convincing- if nothing else, Shojo couldn't reliably predict when he'd die of old age, thus potentially leaving Hinjo with a lot of plates to juggle before any reforms could occur.

Well, two things here. First, "most likely outcome" doesn't mean "what would have happened if not for Xykon." The Giant isn't saying that is what absolutely would have happened, just what would have a higher chance of happening.

Second, divination spells exist. Even if one doesn't wish to more exactly when or how, a rough ballpark of when they expire is relatively easily attainable, especially by the wealthy. I'm not saying Shojo did know anything about that, but it is very much possible that he could.

[Douglas]

However, I'm not sure that the author's official stance on Shojo's beneficence is independently convincing- if nothing else, Shojo couldn't reliably predict when he'd die of old age, thus potentially leaving Hinjo with a lot of plates to juggle before any reforms could occur.

No argument on the number of plates Hinjo might need to juggle, but I think the main point there is that Shojo had a quite reasonable expectation that Hinjo would have a large and loyal army to support him, sufficient to outclass all the nobles in military might, and that should have given Hinjo a powerful base to start working from regardless of how the rest of the government turned out. Xykon and followers showing up and destroying most of that loyal army was a completely unexpected event that surprised everyone.