Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

[hamlet]

Arya saw him, said he looked like a wizard. Until I know more, he's wizard dude.

You know enough to guess at who they are.

[SaintRidley]

You know enough to guess at who they are.

I have an idea, but I am also coming down with something and haven't felt up to the task of checking character descriptions against Arya's. I'll probably wait until the next update when I finish the book to do some consolidation before I start A Clash of Kings.

[Grinner]

Spoiler

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Daenerys: All hail Daenerys, Khaleesi and stopper of many rapes! I’m hoping that the animosity Qotho has toward her leads somewhere, somewhere where Daenerys is able to use her respected position as the mother to the Stallion who shall Mount the World to change Dothraki culture.

You know how we stopped saying "Oh my sweet summer child"? This, if anything, deserves a big, whopping "Oh my sweet summer child".

SaintRidley, what of George RR Martin has led you to believe anything resembling vindication awaits Daeyerys in the future?

[hamlet]

I have an idea, but I am also coming down with something and haven't felt up to the task of checking character descriptions against Arya's. I'll probably wait until the next update when I finish the book to do some consolidation before I start A Clash of Kings.

Well, to be fair, even after five books, we've not actually been given solid confirmation of who those two were even if it has been very strongly hinted at. We could all just be wrong, but I don't think so.

Glad to see that you're enjoying the book thus far. Looking forward to your next post about the end of book 1.

[Friv]

Well, to be fair, even after five books, we've not actually been given solid confirmation of who those two were even if it has been very strongly hinted at. We could all just be wrong, but I don't think so.

Unless you watched the TV show, anyway. When they shot that scene, they showed the characters in question directly and removed any uncertainty, grumble grumble.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Unless you watched the TV show, anyway. When they shot that scene, they showed the characters in question directly and removed any uncertainty, grumble grumble.

The show has changed enough compared to the books that I don't use it to base any theories regarding ASoIaF on.

[SaintRidley]

A heads up - I'm aiming to have the big post to close out the first book come down some time Monday. I've just finished the book, and think I'm going to take a couple days to digest, pour through it, and see where my thoughts stand in relation to various things.

[Killer Angel]

A heads up - I'm aiming to have the big post to close out the first book come down some time Monday. I've just finished the book, and think I'm going to take a couple days to digest, pour through it, and see where my thoughts stand in relation to various things.

...an interesting ending, isn't it?

[An Enemy Spy]

Unless you watched the TV show, anyway. When they shot that scene, they showed the characters in question directly and removed any uncertainty, grumble grumble.

Well they'd be pretty hard pressed to keep it a secret in a visual/audial medium.

[Aedilred]

Well they'd be pretty hard pressed to keep it a secret in a visual/audial medium.

It wouldn't have been hard to disguise our view of the characters. The voices would be harder to disguise and justify*, but at such an early stage in the series they might not be recognised. They'd probably be picked up on a rewatch (or at least one of them would be) but then it's the same in the book.

In fact, that was in some ways a mega-huge reveal in the TV show right there - that those characters are working together... I suppose it's not impossible that someone could have worked it out from the scene first time round in the book, but the revelation proper takes a lot longer (several books!) to come out.

Spoiler: *

Show

Although given Varys is a master of disguise, it wouldn't be unreasonable for him to use a different voice with Illyrio than normally.

[Friv]

The show has changed enough compared to the books that I don't use it to base any theories regarding ASoIaF on.

It wouldn't have been hard to disguise our view of the characters. The voices would be harder to disguise and justify*, but at such an early stage in the series they might not be recognised. They'd probably be picked up on a rewatch (or at least one of them would be) but then it's the same in the book.

Spoiler: Not Technically Revealed in the first book, but easily figurable

Show

On a re-read, it's actually super-obvious who the two are; the "wizard" specifically discusses getting money to recruit more of his little birds, and the other guy is a rich fat man with jeweled rings from the Free Cities with intimate knowledge of what's going on with Viserys and Daenerys.

[Aedilred]

Spoiler: Not Technically Revealed in the first book, but easily figurable

Show

On a re-read, it's actually super-obvious who the two are; the "wizard" specifically discusses getting money to recruit more of his little birds, and the other guy is a rich fat man with jeweled rings from the Free Cities with intimate knowledge of what's going on with Viserys and Daenerys.

Oh yeah, I know who it was, and twigged before I saw the show scene. Once we have a better handle on the world and the characters it's obvious who they are, so on a re-read you spot them, but when we first encounter them it's not clear. It would have been possible to do something similar in the show, but they went with full immediate exposure.

[hamlet]

Oh yeah, I know who it was, and twigged before I saw the show scene. Once we have a better handle on the world and the characters it's obvious who they are, so on a re-read you spot them, but when we first encounter them it's not clear. It would have been possible to do something similar in the show, but they went with full immediate exposure.

Different media, different audience, different expectations and demands. What works in a book doesn't neccessarily work in a tv show or movie and vice versa.

The show and the books really are different animals for the most part, not least because subtlety is not something that a viewing audience can deal with regularly.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

...an interesting ending, isn't it?

You could say that things...came to a head.

[hamlet]

You could say that things...came to a head.

*blank stare*

Lose 50 XP.



Next thing you'll be making jokes bout . . . *grumble*

[TechnOkami]

Next thing you'll be making jokes bout . . . *grumble*

Well, technically they gained a new head.

[Landis963]

Well, technically they gained a new head.

If you're talking about the people I think you're talking about, they definitely got ahead there.

[SaintRidley]

Let’s Read: A Song of Ice and Fire:
Game of Thrones part seven! To the end!

I’ve done it. I finished Game of Thrones. That wasn’t so difficult, and it ends so definitively… wait. You mean there are more books? Well, folks, I guess we’re not done yet. However, this is going to be the big Game of Thrones finale post, and after going through my thoughts on the chapters, I’ll give an overview of the book as a whole.

Daenerys: I guess what I really want to know here is to what extent Mirri Maz Duur planned things out. Would the poultice have helped if Drogo had not taken milk of the poppy? Was it designed that he would do it anyway? Upon reading this chapter, it was very apparent what the price for Drogo’s life would be. I do think it’s a shame we lose him in this book, though, because I rather liked him.

Arya: She’s still in the city, still a potential problem, but Yoren's going to need to go back soon lest be be named a deserter. Events-wise the interesting thing is that we see Ned’s execution at the order of that most graceful boy king. There’s the matter of this Yoren fellow. He’s from the Wall, and it appears he’s stayed in the city. He mistook Arya for a boy the first time he met her, but his words here seem less like mistaking her for a boy and more like pointedly trying to direct her into assuming a disguise. And Ned was killed with his own sword. We’ll be seeing Ice back in the hands of a Stark eventually, I think. No Nymeria, so that’s a thread still out there.

Bran: So both Bran and Rickon seemed attuned to their father’s death. Why do I get the feeling that not only will Bran get his hands on magic, but Rickon too? It’s not really premonition, exactly, but seems like some kind of oracular sight. A useful thing to have on your side if you’re Winterfell. And more really fascinating worldbuilding information about the First Men and the Children of the Forest.

Sansa: This is, I think, the defining moment for Sansa. She’s at her lowest point, and she realizes now that she’s surrounded only by enemies. The tour of the heads… She handled it quite well, I think. She’s grown a bit of snark as well – asking Meryn if he’ll hit her again, getting out her desire for Joffrey’s head. It’s going to be a hard road for her, but she seems well on her way to figuring out how to survive it. And Sandor, at least, doesn’t seem to relish in her treatment – perhaps he’ll be something of an ally for her among everyone else.

Daernerys: The price for that magic, and what it gave… do I detect another variation on the theme of “Is life worth having if you can’t live it?” For Bran and Tyrion, the answer was clearly “It may not be living the way you do, but it doesn’t mean we can’t live it.” For Drogo, however, things are different. And Dany takes it into her own hands to decide what must be done. I feel sorry for her, but the description of the birth handily foreshadows the end of the book: She’s bringing the dragon into the world, but not that way.

Tyrion: It’s a strategy meeting for Tywin here. For all they can’t make out what to do about Robb – he’s definitely more than they expected – they have more pressing issues back home. Joffrey is a major problem. And Tyrion is the only man available to solve it. The Lannisters seem to be coming apart at the seams.

Jon: He wasn’t getting very far, obviously. And they’re going to go beyond the Wall – we’ll finally get to see what’s up with this Mance Rayder guy.

Catelyn: Say it with me – The King in the North.

Daenerys: You knew a big, good fire would be needed to hatch those eggs. Things are getting really interesting – a boy king, the King in the North, Others, and now dragons have returned to the world. And Dany’s fury as she subdues the Dothraki before moving back to the seven kingdoms… she’s going to dismantle them.


Things of importance:
* Renly has declared himself king. The Lannisters are aiming to do something about Joffrey. Stannis is still in the wings. The King in the North. Joffrey himself. Things are about to get very, very messy.
* Arya and Yoren for adventures.
* We’re going to go beyond the Wall—deep beyond the Wall.

So, with that we’re done with Game of Thrones. I want to give a few general comments on it. Martin writes some really engaging prose. He paints a good picture, and waxes poetic just often enough, but not to the point where the whole thing becomes overwrought. There are a lot of really good, really subtle touches in here where you can begin to see certain things start to come together. The portrayal of characters with physical or mental disabilities, for instance, but also other things. Catelyn’s uncle the Blackfish is, I’m like 95% sure, gay. Arya’s arc, with the amount of crossdressing and masquerading as a boy could very well lead to her being read as a queer heroine – fitting, given the neomedieval tone of the series and the fact that medieval literature is full of exactly that sort of thing. Sansa’s going to have an arc which looks likely to involve figuring out how to seize upon indirect forms of power and making them her own, something often picked up in feminist medievalist scholarship.

It’s a really fascinating world Martin’s put together, and it’s deep. I don’t quite know what to do with the bits we’ve gotten from the Bran chapters about history prior to the Seven Kingdoms, but it’s going to be important. Perhaps that’s really the point with them: remembering the stories of the past, because they do impart useful information, even if they seem to be no more than fairy stories.

Martin’s created some very engaging characters here, and I’ve enjoyed the way they interact. Arya especially seems to be valuable as an insight character here, because she more than anybody allows us to get a glimpse at the life of those outside the nobility, because she takes on that life to an extent for her own protection. We see a bit in the scene where Ned’s executed the degree of confusion on the ground for everybody – nobody’s quite sure what to believe about him, and information flow is not good. The people, at least in King’s Landing, seem to primarily want a stable system in place so that they don’t get messed with too much. Joffrey, of course, is not the person you want for that, but they don’t know that. They only know that Ned tried to get Joffrey deposed. So it’s definitely a contrast in perspectives there, which is what I’ve enjoyed about the Arya chapters since she started her training – she gets out there and we get to see a little more of the world and the people than we do with the other characters. It works really well.

Predictions pulled out of my ass:
* Nymeria to show up at a crucial moment for Arya.
* Robb makes a pretty decent King in the North so far. But I wouldn’t put my money on him making it through the series yet. I’m almost wondering if we might wind up seeing, and I say this because of the name and how often we see the previous Brandon Starks mentioned, Bran will become the Wizard King in the North.
* Tyrion and Cersei are going to have a, how shall I put it, disagreement about Joffrey.
* Robb will not be killing Jaime while he remains a prisoner. He may take that ridiculous golden armor and keep it for money, however.
* The Dothraki who left Dany’s khal will wish they had never been born before she’s done with them.

I’ll be beginning A Clash of Kings soon. Just one more week of classes left this summer.

[Zach J.]

I just wanted to take a moment and say that I really enjoyed your posts concerning the first novel and can't wait for you to meet Stannis!

[TechnOkami]

A: KING IN THE NORTH!

B: It's not that you've finished reading A Game of Thrones, it's that you've finished Everyone Dies Book One. Four more to go! >:D q-q

[Knaight]

A: KING IN THE NORTH!

B: It's not that you've finished reading A Game of Thrones, it's that you've finished Everyone Dies Book One. Four more to go! >:D q-q

A Game of Thrones is the first book. It's been read.

[TechnOkami]

A Game of Thrones is the first book. It's been read.

You missed the joke good sir.

[Killer Angel]

Predictions pulled out of my ass:
* Nymeria to show up at a crucial moment for Arya.
* Robb makes a pretty decent King in the North so far. But I wouldn’t put my money on him making it through the series yet. I’m almost wondering if we might wind up seeing, and I say this because of the name and how often we see the previous Brandon Starks mentioned, Bran will become the Wizard King in the North.
* Tyrion and Cersei are going to have a, how shall I put it, disagreement about Joffrey.
* Robb will not be killing Jaime while he remains a prisoner. He may take that ridiculous golden armor and keep it for money, however.
* The Dothraki who left Dany’s khal will wish they had never been born before she’s done with them.

that's... certainly a way to define it.

[hamlet]

Interesting take aways. I'm not sure I can remember how I was thinking at the end of the first book, though I will admit the big twist was seriously spoiled for me by somebody who then receive a black eye so I knew more than I should going in, but I don't think that's what I was thinking. Maybe I was just naive in my own way.

Looking forward to your take on book 2 now. In my opinion, it's actually better (and book 3 is better still) in terms of writing skill. I think that over the course of the books, Martin has just improved technically. Books 4 and 5 suffer a little bit because I think he had an idea in his head, but it just didn't work and he had to scramble to salvage what he could to mixed effect. I will say, though, that I'm one of the few that says book 4 was quite good in its own right and provides a neccessary counterpoint to the first three books.

Anyway, that's getting ahead of ourselves.

I'll make a prediction of my own. Specifically, that you will flat out dislike Stannis from his first, possibly second chapter. I did, though I liked him as a character study.

Also also, welcome to what was, a few years back, almost a game in certain fan circles. Spotting who in the books is, is not, and may or may not be, a bit gay or a lot gay. You'll be surprised, I think.

[Eldan]

I never really got that about said uncle. But it seems to work, now that I've heard it.

[JustSomeGuy]

A game I liked was to keep a tally of maimed and disfigured characters; they all seem to fall into a few basic recycled categories - fingers and hands and arms, and facial. Maybe because it's a violent world, but if you add up the missing digits and facial features, you'd probably be
able to hire a faceless man or two.

I caught a few references to the blackfish, but renly and loras completely went under my nose, so i'm probably not a reliable source!

[Legato Endless]

It's possible though we don't have confirmation or solid supporting evidence. The Blackfish could be asexual as all we really know is that he is opposed to getting married and has shown zero interest in women.

[hamlet]

A game I liked was to keep a tally of maimed and disfigured characters; they all seem to fall into a few basic recycled categories - fingers and hands and arms, and facial. Maybe because it's a violent world, but if you add up the missing digits and facial features, you'd probably be
able to hire a faceless man or two.

I caught a few references to the blackfish, <snip> completely went under my nose, so i'm probably not a reliable source!

Dude. Spoilers.

[Friv]

Dude. Spoilers.

Did the books ever make enough of that for it to be spoilers, beyond vague suggestions from Book 1 on?

[hamlet]

Did the books ever make enough of that for it to be spoilers, beyond vague suggestions from Book 1 on?

It's only ever vaguely hinted at, but it's still not something that should be just bandied about like that with somebody who's only just now read the first book. It took most of us three books to figure it out.