afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VI

[enderlord99]

It is stated in dragon magazine 330, in reference to the multiverse's connection to the far realm, that "knowledge of the Far Realm persists in the multiverse even now, and that knowledge alone is sufficient to maintain that connection."


Not that it would be a feasible task in the context, but could one have an impact upon this connection by removing every trace of knowledge of the far realm?

Probably not.

Could the far realm be disconnected from the wheel?

Seems pretty disconnected already.

Would raising awareness of the far realm have the inverse effect?

No.

[WalkingTheShade]

It is stated in dragon magazine 330, in reference to the multiverse's connection to the far realm, that "knowledge of the Far Realm persists in the multiverse even now, and that knowledge alone is sufficient to maintain that connection."

I view that as a meta statement about the way D&D players use the Far Realm in their games. By this logic, if someone went around and "took care" of every D&D player that knows about the Far Realm, destroyed every game book mentioning it and every online mention...

[afroakuma]

Also, where in the multiverse might I find sapient volcanoes?

NOWHERE ONCE I GET THROUGH WITH THEM. /has seen Inside Out

It is stated in dragon magazine 330, in reference to the multiverse's connection to the far realm, that "knowledge of the Far Realm persists in the multiverse even now, and that knowledge alone is sufficient to maintain that connection."

Foolish statement, but what can you do.

Not that it would be a feasible task in the context, but could one have an impact upon this connection by removing every trace of knowledge of the far realm?

Only insofar as less idiots would go poking at it.

Could the far realm be disconnected from the wheel?

About as much as the planet Neptune can be disconnected from Japan.

Would raising awareness of the far realm have the inverse effect?

More idiots would try to poke at it, but if you're trying to read that passage in a literal sense, don't.

[WalkingTheShade]

Using the enderlord99 ±10-scale of Conjecture Compatibility with Canon, what is the believability of the following sentences:
Sigil is the Ordial Plane.
Sigil is on the Ordial Plane.
The Ordial Plane is the infinite nothingness outside of Sigil.

What can you tell me about the Planewalker Guild whose headquarters are located at the beginning of the Infinite Staircase? Any notable role or appearance outside Tales from the Infinite Staircase?

[afroakuma]

Using the enderlord99 ±10-scale of Conjecture Compatibility with Canon, what is the believability of the following sentences:

No.

What can you tell me about the Planewalker Guild whose headquarters are located at the beginning of the Infinite Staircase? Any notable role or appearance outside Tales from the Infinite Staircase?

That's the big one. They're not majorly involved in anything; but then, when your guild is built on a planar pathway, you make for a valuable contact indeed.

[enderlord99]

No.

-9, in other words?

[Eldan]

Judging by the lack of rains of brimstone and swarms of two-headed crows accompanying that "no", that's more a -4.

[WalkingTheShade]

Judging by the lack of rains of brimstone and swarms of two-headed crows accompanying that "no", that's more a -4.

Depends on how you parse the "no", actually.
Looking at the post, one could understand that the "no" refers to the "Using the enderlord99 ±10-scale of Conjecture Compatibility with Canon, what is the believability of the following sentences" part, not to the sentences themselves. Meaning: "I won't use the enderlord99 ±10-scale of Conjecture Compatibility with Canon to give a believability rating to any of the following sentences".
As such, no rating is given to any of the three conjectures.

[enderlord99]

Also, where in the multiverse might I find sapient volcanoes?

Youtube. They like filling their water with breakfast and talking to people named "Tyrannosaurus Alan."

[Jurai]

Also, where in the multiverse might I find sapient volcanoes?

Sapient Volcanoes sounds like a good name for a post-punk band. Also, I've only been surfing these threads since about mid-to-late IV, and that, I think, is what we call a Mathematician's Answer. EVERYTHING about that question is NO.

[Jowgen]

I was thinking about divine spells, specifically how they can be granted by worshiping an ideal or concept, and how that made deities kinda obsolete in that regard. Then it occurred to me how it was strange that deities could choose to have their worshippers not have spells, considering how a deity is not even specifically required to get divine magic. So I thought of an explanation, and would like to hear your opinion how it checks out.

In its natural state, divine magic flows purely from a soul's devotion to any given ideal. A sub-category of these ideals are known as portfolios: the pure aspects of mortal existence. Deities are wills/consciousnesses/souls that have cosmic power of because they are somehow latched onto one or more of those portfolios, like parasites.

The power of sufficient worship is what commonly allows a will/consciousness/soul to try and latch onto one of those powers (i.e. gain part of a portfolio), although other parasites can easily interfere/help. Deities of less-than-greater power require continued worship to maintain their infection of their portfolios. Due to how they've latched onto a portfolio, they have a measure of control over it; noticeably in the sense that they can give some of its power (i.e. grant spells) to a mortal who doesn't necessarily fully embrace the ideal, or choose to not grant any power.

So, true to their parasitic nature, deities promote being worshipped to increase their sway over the ideals they've infected. They use Dogmas to make worship sound appealing, offer easily graspable access to divine magic to mortals who don't have the capacity to (or aren't aware of the possibility) truly worship something as abstract as a cosmic ideal, and threaten with the immediate withholding of that power.

Some special cases are:

The Lady of Pain: Sigil, as the centre of everything, has massive untapped power that has been proven to be able to undo the multiverse, due to how it is strucutred. As deity-hood functions as a parasite, it is vital for the multiverse's existence that no deity be allowed within Sigil, since that would allow them to infect sigil and thus gain that power. The Lady of Pain doesn't tolerate being worshiped due this danger, as accepting worship would give her divine power and thus invariably have her tap that multi-verse-shattering power. That is also why she's so uncaring about everything else, as having biases would make her prone to accepting worship. Chances are, many mutliverses have collapsed and were re-done because the lady of pain in that multiverse failed to remain neutral and/or accepted worship, causing cosmic destruction. I'd like to think that's where Atropus came from. He was the last Lady of Pain and decided to scrap the last draft and start over.

The Dark powers of Ravenloft et al.: they have complete control over these cosmic power channels within their realm, similar to the Lady of Pain's absolute dominion over sigil. This brings us to...

Vecna: he was able to infiltrate Sigil because of the interaction between the rules governing Sigil and the Demiplane of Dread. Using the smidgen of divine power he had gotten from worship and Iuz, he forced the boundaries of the Demiplane of Dread to touch upon Sigil, causing the two abosolute-dominion zones to slightly cancel each other out on the edge, allowing him to slip through the blurred barrier. As the Lady of Pain didn't possess any worship (i.e. wasn't an active parasite), she could not contest Vecna using his relatively limited powers to take control of Sigil's power. Had Vecna succeeded, he'd likely be the Atropus of the next multiverse, except with everything in reverse as he was already undead... so he'd be living and happy to be in charge, rather than dead and wanting to destroy everything.


I think I've spun this fan-theory of mine far enough. Might run it as a canon in my next campaign. Might even make a thread about it to pose it for general discussion, but before that, yeah, any do you have any feedback? Any glaring plot-holes that I would need to address before this could be consistent with generic-setting D&D lore?

Also, on a completely unrelated note, would you mind (for what's probably the 13th time) going through the reason for and exact nature of the difference in power(s) between deities and the Lord of the Lower Planes? It's relevant to the latest how-to-kill-deities thread.

[WalkingTheShade]

I'll leeve that here. Opinions and corrections are welcome. I'll edit it where I judge useful. If I could just come up with a better name for it...

Spoiler

Show

Memnos

Memnoi are strange creatures native to the outer planes. Related to the Moigno, they straddle a line between idea and life, manifesting a will of their own. Nobody knows exactly how or when a Memnos forms, but sages think they are the consequences of ideas and fancies of primes. They are the byproducts of unproven theorems, conspiracy theories and superstitions enduring despite contrary experience. Each Memnos has its own appearance and manifests as an insubstantial image pertaining to its subject. Chaotic Memnoi pertain sometimes to absurd ideas or thought experiences, other times to subversive and avant-gardiste ideologies, and appear as chimerical amalgamations of various objects or clouds of lights and colors. Neutral Memnoi pertain to reasonable seeming but biased or uninformed opinions or otherwise baseless ideas, and appear as ghostly figure or object that symbolizes the Memnos' subject. Lawful Memnoi pertain to ideas that reinforce the multiversal order and scientific theories based on logical iterations, and usually appear as abstract geometrical shapes moving by their own mechanism, or strings of equations permutating in mid-air. Good and evil Memnoi are rare, as they tend to be ideas detached from morality.
However, what all Memnoi have in common is their incompleteness. Whether missing a key step in a demonstration, or incoherently incompatible with the multiverse, a Memnos exists in this form because it is unable to take substance as an organic part of the planes of belief. A Memnos' only goal is to become complete, thus realizing itself and merging with the multiverse. In order to do so, Memnoi scour their plane for mortals of great knowledge and creativity able to complete them. Chaotic memnoi tend to possess as many mortals as possible then leave them behind in their quest for completeness. Lawful Memnoi tend to go through a process of selection, discussing their subject with potential candidates and possessing one only in the case a promising candidate walks away without trying to help them.
No one is certain of the consequences of completing a Memnos. Some think that proving a Memnos might actually transforms the multiverse in accordance to the Memnos. If that is true, proving a particularly absurd Memnos might have devastating consequences. Other argue that might be the actual cause of the sometime counter-intuitive idiosyncrasies of the various planes.

Tiny outsider (incorporeal, psionic, alignment*)
HD: 1d8 (4)
Initiative: +4
Speed: Fly 50ft (perfect)
AC: 10
BaB: +1
Special Attack: Possess
Special Qualities: incorporeal, telepathy (100ft), psy-like abilities
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +5
Attributes: Str -, Dex 10, Con -, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 14
Skills: 40 points, spread between skills relevant to subject
Feats: Improved Initiative
Alignment: Any
CR: 1
Environment: An outer plane of matching alignment
Advancement: 2-4HD (tiny), 5-8HD (small), 9-12HD (large), 13-16HD (huge), 17-20HD (gargantuan)

*Extra alignment subtypes: A Memnos gets extra subtypes corresponding to its alignment, when applicable.

Bound (Ex): A Memnos cannot go out of its plane of origin under any condition, except while possessing a being that leaves that plane.

Rebirth (Ex): A Memnos cannot be destroyed by ordinary methods. When reaching -10 HP, it simply disappears and reforms 3d10 hours later in a random location on its plane of origin.

Telepathy (Su): Memnoi can communicate telepathically with any sentient being speaking a language. The target of their telepathy always understands clearly whatever meaning the Memnos wishes to convey. However, a Memnos is solipsistic and unable to conceive of anything outside its subject or its quest for completeness.

Deconstruction (Ex): The only way to destroy a Memnos is to present it, either with a proof of its exactitude, or a disproof establishing its fallacy. The proof can be experimental (and presented in front of the Memnos) or purely theoretical. In general, establishing proof or disproof demands one hour, spent either in original research or in discussion with the Memnos, per HD of the Memnos. A character presenting the proof must pass a knowledge check, DC 12, covering the subject of the Memnos. This DC is Int based. If the character succeeds, the Memnos is destroyed. If the character fails, the Memnos, reinforced by new belief, gains one HD. The character has to restart the research from the beginning, taking into account the lengthened time and higher DC. Moreover, a particularly shaky or solid proof or disproof can receive a consequent bonus to the roll. For more practical or experimental attempts, the knowledge check can also be replaced by any other relevant check.

Possess (Su): A Memnos can try to possess any living being with a soul. To resist, the target of the ability must pass a DC 12 (Intelligence based) Will save. If the target fails, it is possessed by the Memnos and forgoes all pursuits to concentrate on the subject of the Memnos. It gains one outsider HD, the current skill ranks of the Memnos. Those skill become class skills for the duration of the possession. However, the DC to prove or disprove the Memnos is now calculated using the possessed creature HD and its intelligence score. A Memnos can end this possession at any moment, returning to its home plane if the possessed creature has moved to a different plane.

Psy-like abilities (Sp): At will, Read thoughts (DC 14) - 1/day, Psionic suggestion DC 14.

Advancement: With each HD beyond the 4th, a Memnos gains powers points and psionic powers as if taking a level of the Telepath psion class. A Memnos gains +1 Int for every 2HD after the first. Moreover, whenever a Memnos gains a HD, it may opt to instead create another Memnos sharing the same subject. Whenever a Memnos is proven or disproved, all other Memnoi born in that way are also destroyed.
__________________________

Example Memnoi :
- The Burning Hate, 10 HD CE Memnos: The Burning Hate is a Memnos haunting the lowest depths of Carceri. It seeks a way to get out of the red prison to establish that Pelor is in secret a power of Evil.
- The World Tree, 15 HD CG Memnos: The World Tree can be encountered on Ygdrasil. Many say it has been disproved many times, but keeps reappearing on Ysgard. Those who have communicated with it say the clueless Memnos understands nothing of the structure of the planes. The World Tree appears as a great tree whose limbs end into various intricately detailed domains looking suspiciously like various regions of the Outer planes.
- Hope unfounded, many 1 HD NG Memnoi: a populous group of 1HD Memnos runing around Elysium and spreading the idea that most Prime members of races like orc, goblinoids, gnolls, trolls and giants are actually a lot nicer than you'd think, but are just misunderstood and if people took the time to just talk with them everyone would get along. They appear as tiny balls of white light, and are often mistaken for lantern archons.

[Urpriest]

As an Outsider with Int 14, shouldn't it have more skill points?

[afroakuma]

As such, no rating is given to any of the three conjectures.

Well you got that right:

EVERYTHING about that question is NO.

I refuse to indulge this scale.

do you have any feedback?

Do you have a summary of all that? Cause I definitely don't have time for a full parse right now.

Also, on a completely unrelated note, would you mind (for what's probably the 13th time) going through the reason for and exact nature of the difference in power(s) between deities and the Lord of the Lower Planes? It's relevant to the latest how-to-kill-deities thread.

I refuse to contribute to those any more, even by proxy. Search for past answers, see if any will help you.

Living meme

Think you could slap a friendly spoiler block around that?

[Eldan]

Sentient volcanoes? Plane of Magma. That sounds like a given to me.

[enderlord99]

I refuse to indulge this scale.

Indeed. Now that people are using it for things they really should already know are incredibly stupid, it has clearly outlived its usefulness. I don't want my name attached to something used for such purposes, so I'm glad you've shut it down. I didn't expect it to get used for more than just the original chole-dragon-question anyway!

[WalkingTheShade]

As an Outsider with Int 14, shouldn't it have more skill points?

Thanks for the feedback. It indeed should.
EDIT: I actually had to check your guide to get it right.

Well you got that right:

+1 internet for me.

I refuse to indulge this scale.

This is noted.

Think you could slap a friendly spoiler block around that?

I think I could. I even just did.
Did that look even remotely like something you'd envision a few pages back when the question came up? I understand if you don't have the time to go through it at the moment.

Indeed. Now that people are using it for things they really should already know are incredibly stupid, it has clearly outlived its usefulness. I don't want my name attached to something used for such purposes, so I'm glad you've shut it down. I didn't expect it to get used for more than just the original chole-dragon-question anyway!

Well, mea culpa since I think I'm the only other one to have a. used the scale b. attached your name to it. My thongue wath sthrongly in my theek, however, and I didn't want to offend anyone. Use of the scale served however as a preamble to mark that I suspected the following question might sound ludicrous. Please don't hurt me.

More questions, like always.
We know the effect of proximity to the Spire on arcane and divine magic. However, does it have any effect on psychic powers? I didn't manage to unhearth any reference supporting any interpretation.

[Jowgen]

Do you have a summary of all that? Cause I definitely don't have time for a full parse right now.

Well, okay, in brief:

Portfolios, the basic aspects of mortal existence, are a sub-category of the cosmic ideals that normally source divine magic directly to those who devote themselves/worship them. Deity-hood is the result of a will/soul/consciousness latching onto a portfolio in a parasitic fashion using the power of worship. In effect, deities infect the normal mortal-to-ideal connection of worship-to-divine-magic and use the worship of mortals to "glue" themselves to the portfolios in a manner that gives them a measure of control over them. That's why they have such power, require worship and can grant spells.

Sigil is the foundation of the multiverse and must remain free of deities lest those deities "infect" Sigil and change what is essentially the multiverse prime program or base-code or whatever. The lady of pain thus doesn't tolerate being worshiped lest she gain deity-status and thus inadvertedly mess with said prime program, like Vecna tried. Her power over sigil is functionally similar to that of the Dark Powers, in that she fully controls the entry, exit and worship-channels of sigil, and it is this similarity that allowed Vecna to break in by forcing an overlap of total-control zones.

So yeah, that's the roughly abridged version; sound reasonable?

[NeoPhoenix0]

I have a question for you. I want to know if i am making stuff up in my mind again.

I remember reading somewhere that a layer of the abyss is actually a very large dormant creature. It isn't the great mother i am thinking of. Can you help me find such a layer or layers of the abyss?

[Brookshw]

I have a question for you. I want to know if i am making stuff up in my mind again.

I remember reading somewhere that a layer of the abyss is actually a very large dormant creature. It isn't the great mother i am thinking of. Can you help me find such a layer or layers of the abyss?

You're not thinking of the draeden or demonwing are you?

[NeoPhoenix0]

You're not thinking of the draeden or demonwing are you?

The draeden is exactly what i was looking for, thank you. I read about it a long time ago and was never able to find stuff about it again when i went looking for it.

[Melcar]

Knowing that you think it would be better to disregard the Great Tree cosmology and just use the Great Wheel, I wanted to poke around with the idea that both excisted. Now I know we have touched upon this before, but how would you se this being played out?

How would you incorporate the planes from the Great Treee and the Great Wheel into a complete or unified universe?

I ast since I actually like, the idear, that both set of planes excist, I just need some help in finding out how or where, and would like your thought on it... again!

[Rogthnor]

When discussing the Ghoresh Chasm, you stated that you believe that the evil counterpart to angels are what lies on the other side of the seals. But aren't devils the evil counterpart to angels?

[WalkingTheShade]

When discussing the Ghoresh Chasm, you stated that you believe that the evil counterpart to angels are what lies on the other side of the seals. But aren't devils the evil counterpart to angels?

Devils are Lawful Evil exemplars, from Baator. Archons are Lawful Good exemplars, from Mount Celestia.

Angels are not exemplars, and can be Chaotic Good, Lawful Good or Neutral Good. Their origins are less clear than those of exemplar races. They serve as messengers for the Good-aligned powers.
In canon, they have no Evil "counterpart", meaning there are no Evil creatures serving a comparable role.

[Rogthnor]

Follow up question then, what exactly do we know of their origins?

On an unrelated note, what are the transitive planes and what defines them as such?

[afroakuma]

Well, okay, in brief: sound reasonable?

No.

I have a question for you. I want to know if i am making stuff up in my mind again.

I remember reading somewhere that a layer of the abyss is actually a very large dormant creature. It isn't the great mother i am thinking of. Can you help me find such a layer or layers of the abyss?

Ulgurshek.

Knowing that you think it would be better to disregard the Great Tree cosmology and just use the Great Wheel, I wanted to poke around with the idea that both excisted. Now I know we have touched upon this before, but how would you se this being played out?

How would you incorporate the planes from the Great Treee and the Great Wheel into a complete or unified universe?

I wouldn't. The planes of the Great Tree are stupid poorly-thought-out knockoffs. If I were forced to, I would make the Great Tree an alternate Prime's cosmology, which is what it was intended to do all along - forcibly split off FR from the core setting.

Follow up question then, what exactly do we know of their origins?

As far as we are aware, angels are Upper Planar native spirits shaped by the gods to serve as messengers and powerful minions.

On an unrelated note, what are the transitive planes and what defines them as such?

The Transitive Planes are the Ethereal Plane, the Plane of Shadow and the Astral Plane. They are the medium by which things are connected, and the basic building blocks of multiversal reality. Each is meant as more of a conduit or periphery than as a place filled with things - and so they tend to be largely empty, heavily tied to their coterminous and coexistent planes and generally alienating to "structure" and "permanence."

[Extra Anchovies]

Ulgurshek.

Oooh, that looks neat. If I wanted to learn more about the layer and about the Draeden as a whole, what sources should I look into?

[Melcar]

I knew you were going to say that. What I really wanted to ask, but couldn't because I'm bad at explaining, is, where would you place geographically if you had to the planes of the great wheel? If we assume there is one unified greater great wheel? Am I just repeating my self, or making sense?... or non of the above?

[enderlord99]

I knew you were going to say that. What I really wanted to ask, but couldn't because I'm bad at explaining, is, where would you place geographically if you had to the planes of the great wheel? If we assume there is one unified greater great wheel? Am I just repeating my self, or making sense?... or non of the above?

There is at most one "wheel" larger than that of the Outer Planes, and it only exists if the Ordial does, which it might not.

[atemu1234]

What methods could one use to unseat an Archduke? Specifically to take their place.

How could one become friends with Asmodeus? (this one's a little less serious, but is probably very important)