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2010-03-20, 08:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #707 - The Discussion Thread
I would imagine there were probably some kind of standard orders to kill all the goblinoids. The leader just did it in a way that was expedient.
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2010-03-20, 08:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #707 - The Discussion Thread
I'm very disturbed that people are defending the elf commander here. This is different from Familicide, which at least was used against an Always Evil race by someone who wasn't thinking clearly. The commander calmly and deliberately killed the hobgoblin (Usually Evil, meaning a sizable minority are not evil) just because he was a hobgoblin. If he'd given a reason like "I don't believe your story and we can't risk having witnesses", that would be one thing, but he gave no reason except racism for his action.
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2010-03-20, 09:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #707 - The Discussion Thread
I thought it was funny.
And I'm liking the female NPC with the eyepatch. Hope she gets a name soon.
^-^Credit to CrimsonAngel for avie.
^-^
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2010-03-20, 09:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #707 - The Discussion Thread
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2010-03-20, 09:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Was the elf commander Morally justified in killing the prisoner?
I never said it wasn't. I said it was in accordance with his likely alignment. And the way he did it was still logical; rather than waste time having the same discussion of morals with Thanh or anyone else who would have raised this same question, he tricked the guy into coming with him quietly. It was that or drag him kicking and screaming away from the group which would have caused the problem he was trying to avoid. Was it evil? Sure, that was a pretty crappy thing to do. But it was still logical to him and in what he felt was the best interest of his mission, which is what neutral is all about.
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2010-03-20, 09:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Was the elf commander Morally justified in killing the prisoner?
Again: being a soldier is no excuse for being a butcher. The hobgoblin had his hands tied, for crying out loud.
You sure don't think much of the military, do you? Neither do I, as a matter of fact. But I usually don't assume them to be glorified, racist butchers.
And no, there weren't any hobgoblins left in the area besides him. If there were any left, they would have been swarmed by wights already.
Sure, he would then tell Gobbotopia authorities about the escape and the presence of the Elven Teams. But what are the odds that such a large escape will pass unnoticed anyway?
It is not even reasonable to assume that killing him will keep Gobbotopia in the dark about who and how many people freed the captives. Even if there are no witnesses, there is scrying magic to consider.
To sum up what happened: Soldiers were guarding enslaved civilians. A group of enemy soldiers attacked them and won this skirmish. In battle, the attacking soldiers killed all enemy combatants to prevent reinforcements from arriving.
A likely neutral-aligned elven commander saw a potentially dangerous person that could lead to the extermination or enslavement of their entire group, with none spared.
He took the logical course of action.
He was neutral aligned and was not bound by any moral code.
The morality of his actions was in accordance to his alignment. Nothing out of the ordinary happened, and the world moved on.
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2010-03-20, 09:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- New Hampshireland
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2010-03-20, 09:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-03-20, 09:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #707 - The Discussion Thread
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2010-03-20, 09:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #707 - The Discussion Thread
A question to those defending the elf commander: Do you actually think Rich intended the commanders actions to be viewed as positive? Or do you simply disagree with him as to whether they are?
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2010-03-20, 09:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-03-20, 09:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #707 - The Discussion Thread
Christ almighty, I hope you're joking here...but this forum being what it is that's probably naively hopeful thinking.
If you're serious, then I don't know what to say. Congrats on being exactly like the characters you're condemning, I guess. Pulling off that kind of hypocrisy with complete sincerity and no sense of the irony is an accomplishment in itself.Last edited by Solara; 2010-03-20 at 09:09 PM.
Google query for the Giant's posts, for those of us who think they're way more interesting than yet another speculation thread but don't have time to read every thread on the forum to find one he's posting in.
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2010-03-20, 09:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: OOTS #707 - The Discussion Thread
Read Rideryu's sig.
(I rather wish he'd turn the persona off occasionally, m'self. I can't remember the last time he said anything that wasn't defined by the attitude encapsulated in that sig, and it gets wearing, as well as reducing the signal-to-noise ratio to near zero because it's impossible to tell what his real stance on anything is.)Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2010-03-20, 09:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #707 - The Discussion Thread
You sure don't think much of the military, do you? Neither do I, as a matter of fact. But I usually don't assume them to be glorified, racist butchers.
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2010-03-20, 09:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Was the elf commander Morally justified in killing the prisoner?
SoD Spoiler
SpoilerKilling you own brother and letting people die just so you don't have to admit you're wrong sounds pretty evil to me. Or at least ridiculously narcissistic.
Or sending hobgoblins to "die like lemmings". Or genuinely enjoying the slaughter of an entire city. Or serving a lich who plans to basically use a god-killing abomination to take over the world.
Except it is nonsense, as they did nothing of the sort, indeed, even invited many Death Eaters and their sympathizers (Sirius and Snape, for example, ring a bell?) into their ranks, hell, they allowed many of them to teach at Hogwarts.
That's why they were good guys, and not a band of murderous scum.
The reason they were the good guys was because they fought a band of mass 'murderous scum' - ie, voldemort and the death eaters. ("Half of the muggle killings done in you-know-who's time were done for fun.") If they did it by murdering death eaters in their sleep, it would've added a gray/darker-gray morality quandary in the series but they still would've been the good guys because they have very specific targets while Voldemort basically kills everyone who looks like they would be fun to murder or might get in his way at some future point.
Nice try, but there is no such consensus. In fact, more sensible people found the kill to be stupid from the beginning
[yawn] I love how apologists invented the whole 'sense motive' nonsense and it already spread like fire in wain apology attempt, despite having no support whatsoever in the very words of that racist prick himself.
If he said something like 'nice try' or 'I was supposed to buy that?' it would be a different story, but he didn't even hinted at it, and for now, you're like the guys arguing Thog, Belkar, Nale, V or Haley aren't evil because they're cool
... wait, did anyone seriously claim Belkar and Nale aren't evil? Not GOOD at being evil, maybe, but come on!
As for sense motive, your entire argument is based on the idea that rolling it would have made a difference. Unless he put ranks in it or rolled a natural 20, would it have? Doubtful.
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2010-03-20, 09:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #707 - The Discussion Thread
Okay, I give up. If you want to call butchery "gray" morality, I have no reason to keep discussing the matter with you.
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2010-03-20, 09:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Was the elf commander Morally justified in killing the prisoner?
Come one, come all! GitP MLP Steam Group is open!
Current location of the last MLP Thread OP, too.
Want to ask me something? Use MAIL or message me on Steam!
"Well, the Great and Powerful Trixie can't actually transport you to Equestria... But!
The Great and Powerful Trixie can beat you over the head until you think that's what happened!"
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2010-03-20, 09:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #707 - The Discussion Thread
Is it really reasonable to expect the elven commander dude to risk the safety of a large number of innocents to save one, singular evil racist hobgoblin who's willing to betray his own people (either that or worse, he's a spy)?
No, no it's not reasonable.Black text is for sarcasm, also sincerity. You'll just have to read between the lines and infer from context like an animal
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2010-03-20, 09:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #707 - The Discussion Thread
All the more so since the elf believes it likely that the goblin is a spy. Even in the real world, the punishments for that get harsh real quick.
Of course, his prejudicial decision to automatically consider the goblin a spy because of his race is beyond the pale, and his toying around with the goblin before killing him is morally unjust. But his actions leave him far close to Neutral than Evil on the alignment continuum.
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2010-03-20, 09:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-03-20, 09:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-03-20, 09:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Was the elf commander Morally justified in killing the prisoner?
If you, er, ignore the logic behind killing the goblin, then I suppose that could be considered a 'fix'. There was no torture, either, unless the definition of the word has changed radically. Needlessly painful death I'll grant you, but to a minor degree. Racism I'll grant you. 1.5/4 is not a good score, as these things go.
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2010-03-20, 09:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #707 - The Discussion Thread
I haven't read through all the arguments, but I'll just give two thoughts:
1. The hobgoblin was, at the least, a racist. He hates the green-skin goblins, and was in prison for roughing up one of them. Odds are that he's evil.
2. Thanh's not exactly far away, and even 1st level paladins get detect evil. He could have made certain the goblin was evil in no time.
3. Even if he is evil, even if he'd betray them in a heartbeat, there's currently enough magic floating around that they could have gotten good, honest answers out of him. So killing him was wasteful, whether or not it was justified.
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2010-03-20, 09:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #707 - The Discussion Thread
Why are some of you claiming that a prisoner with his hands tied, no weapons, and no way to escape is putting the whole group in risk?
I must ask again: why couldn't the Elves and the Resistance simply tie him up and leave him there until it was too late for him to make any real difference?
There is a reason why Thanh would not aprove the killing, you know. He is a Paladin and has killed before. But not gratuitously.
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2010-03-20, 09:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #707 - The Discussion Thread
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2010-03-20, 09:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #707 - The Discussion Thread
Hmm, in 707 issues of OotS I've never had a reason to criticize an issue, but I must say that this issue was the most predictable one I've ever seen. Soon as what's is name said "there are good goblins" I knew the punchline would be "dead goblins".
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2010-03-20, 09:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #707 - The Discussion Thread
This is both a poor justification for thinking that the goblin is evil, and a poor justification for offing the goblin.
Which would be an impractical waste of time during a critical operation.
We do not know if this was already done (good way to find out about the festival, for example). We have little reason to believe that the goblin had many answers to give. The marginal value of taking him prisoner would be small.
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2010-03-20, 09:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Was the elf commander Morally justified in killing the prisoner?
To sum up what happened: Soldiers were guarding enslaved civilians. A group of enemy soldiers attacked them and won this skirmish. In battle, the attacking soldiers killed all enemy combatants to prevent reinforcements from arriving. A elven commander saw a potentially dangerous person that could lead to the extermination or enslavement of their entire group, with none spared. He took the logical course of action. He spoke with the prisoner, gave racist remarks, then offed him in a excruciatingly way to prevent risk to his men and those in the resistance. His alignment was unclear and therefore he was not bound by any moral code. The morality of his actions was most likely in accordance to his alignment, though it did not necessarily have to be since alignment is not the only thing deciding the morality of characters, except maybe for paladins. Stuff happened, and the world moved on.
Why not? Stupider crap has happened, Real life AND order of the stick.
Granted, probably not. But it's also perfectly plausible that they have only ever met hobgoblin soldiers, in which case referring to them as 'hobgoblins' is much simpler than saying 'hobgoblin soldiers.'Last edited by Kumo; 2010-03-20 at 09:32 PM.
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2010-03-20, 09:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #707 - The Discussion Thread
Races in D&D do have personality tendencies. It's why they have favored classes and some races are "usually chaotic" and others, such as hobgoblins are "usually lawful evil", and tend toward brutality and fascism. Elves tend to be arrogant jerks.
For a hobgoblin to outright betray his newfound country by roughing up a goblin for being green, despite the fact that the supreme leader is a "greenskin", means that's he's either lying or an unreliable traitor. There's simply no way he's worth the risk.
For the record the elf is specist. Like Readcloak.
Why are some of you claiming that a prisoner with his hands tied, no weapons, and no way to escape is putting the whole group in risk?Last edited by Mastikator; 2010-03-20 at 09:33 PM.
Black text is for sarcasm, also sincerity. You'll just have to read between the lines and infer from context like an animal
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2010-03-20, 09:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #707 - The Discussion Thread
On one hand, I found that the actions of the Elves and subsequent awe of their actions to be morally disgusting; I can bring up an example of how someone tied up, no weapons, and no way to escape can be a threat.
In the movie U-571, the captured U-Boat commander was signalling the pressence of the boat to the searching destroyer above. He was bound, he couldn't escape off of a submerged vehicle, and had no weapons at the time; but he could signal at the inopportune moment.
So, on that portion of the argument, I can bring up an example.A hypothetical question: If wasn't Asian nor a Samurai, would there be as many Miko-fans?