[Creature] WAR! MMM! What is it good for?

[The Vorpal Tribble]

This has probably gotta be the most epic character I've ever made, however, I'm not that knowledgeable with epic levels. My calculations for a CR seems to only work for sub-epic creatures. After that I can't estimate it with any degree of accuracy. Would be greatful for anyone who has an idea how to get it at least close.

Once I know its CR I can then figure out what its spell resistance should be.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Magnusumatta

Colossal Outsider (extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 116d8+2436 (2958 hp)
Initiative: +11
Speed: 120 ft. (20 squares)
Armor Class: 85 (+13 deflection, +5 dex, +75 natural, -8 size), touch 10, flat-footed 80
Base Attack/Grapple: +116/+161
Attack: Slam +146 melee (40d10+43/19-20x2)
Full Attack: Slam +146 melee (40d10+43/19-20x2)
Space/Reach: 80 ft./80 ft.
Special Attacks: Forgotten cause, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Amphibious, blindsight 1000 feet, calming aura, damage reduction 50/-, darkvision 1200 feet, equal terms, immunity to cold, fire and mind-affecting effects, not really here, outsider traits, spell resistance ?, strategic knowledge, telepathy 200 ft., tremorsense 5000 ft., true seeing
Saves: Fort +81, Ref +65, Will +69
Abilities: Str 68 (+29), Dex 21, Con 52 (+21), Int 19, Wis 28 (+9), Cha 36 (+13)
Skills: Autohypnosis +74, Concentration +80, Decipher Script +63, Diplomacy +76, Gather Information +76, Intimidate +76, Knowledge (any 10) +63, Listen +68, Move Silently +64, Psicraft +63, Search +63, Sense Motive +74, Spellcraft +63, Spot +68, Use Magic Device +72
Feats: Awesome Blow, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Combat Intuition, Combat Reflexes, Daunting Presence, Defensive Sweep, Deflect Arrows, Diehard, Dodge, Endurance, Enlarge Spell, Extraordinary Concentration, Great Cleave, Hold the Line, Improved Critical (slam), Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Large and In Charge, Mobility, Power Attack, Quick Reconnoiter, Quicken Spell-like Ability (Epic Repulsion), Quicken Spell-like Ability (Greater Teleport), Sculpt Spell, Shock Trooper, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (slam), Whirlwind Attack
Epic Feats: Devasting Critical (slam), Epic Prowess, Epic Reputation, Epic Sunder, Exceptional Deflection, Improved Combat Casting, Overwhelming Critical (slam)
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary, Pair, or Barrier (3+)
Challenge Rating: 55
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always Neutral
Advancement: 117-200 HD (Colossal)
Level Adjustment: -

One would think the ground would rumble, for the passing of this creature can momentarily eclipse the sun itself, but its steps are as silent as the movement of a glacier. The magnusumatta superficially resembles that of a beetle-like insect with a chitonous covering alike to that of pale cream marble but stronger than any stone. Patches of silver shadows within the meter thick armor.

Magnusumatta are a great engima. The great creatures are said to be sent when the gods themselves tire of battle. Such is very nearly the case, for indeed great powers send them whenever the winning of a war or battle would tip the scale of power to the detriment of many. Be it a charge of misguided peasants against a tyrranical but ultimately beneficial lord or one side of the unimaginably vast forces of the Blood War threatening to win over the other. Perhaps the lord's iron hand was all that kept at bay an invasion of barbarians, or the only check to the spread of evil being the continued hostility between demon and devil.

Such circumstances require a solution when diplomacy has failed and which more blood shed would only worsen. It is here the Magnusumatta appears, positioning itself between the clashing forces, turning a deaf ear to the words of either side. It hulks and maintains peace between the two by the simple method of allowing neither side to touch the other. A magnusumatta would sooner destroy both or perish than allow one to have the upper hand over the other. This fact is given by the creature itself and rumors are heard throughout the planes of factions that tested the validity of its words. Thus on reputation alone the opposing forces are wont to break up, for both sides would lose horribly.

Magnusumatta's tend to occupy small demiplanes of their own construction, sending a seeming across the multiverse so that it may explore and seek out adventure and knowledge from the safety of its own home. This demiplane is often connected to some powerful phenomonenon such as black hole or center of the positive energy plane so that when its presence no longer sustaining its plane, such as from its death, those within the demiplane, perhaps its killers, are wont to be destroyed.

The weight of a Magnusumatta is astronomical, and it stands over sixty feet high and the distance between its back and front most foot is at the least some 100 feet. Magnusumattas are quick to learn the language of those they go to bar though most speak through their telepathic abilities.

Combat
Magnusumattas prefer to arrive before the armies have actually clashed, planeshifting in and then teleporting itself to the proper location. When the armies come together they find the creature in their midsts, shimmering walls of force stretching into the distance. The Magnusumatta then delivers its ultimatum that the forces shall move away orall wil suffer. If its words are not heeded it uses its repulsion affect to ward off the two warring species and repel metal and stone to keep weapons from being brought to bear against the others. As a last resort it charges towards the leaders with a cry, wiping from their minds the cause of their hostility.

A magnusumatta's natural weapons are considered adamantium and epic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Calming Aura (Sp): A magnusumattas is continuously surrounded by a calming aura to a radius of 5000 feet. Creatures within the aura must make a successful Will save (DC 71), or be affected as by the Calm Emotions spell. Creatures who leave the aura and reenter it receive new saving throws. A creature that makes a successful saving throw and remains in the aura is unaffected until it leaves the aura and reenters. The aura is a mind-affecting, supernatural compulsion. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Equal Terms (Sp): A Magnusumatta may produce an antimagic field about itself as a standard action that surrounds it out to a mile in all directions.

Forgotten Cause (Su): Twice per day a magnusumatta may release a strange cry that wreaks havoc with one's memory. All those within a thousand feet of the creature must succeed on a DC 71 will save or be struck with complete amnesia, even if their ears are covered. This causes the loss of all character levels, skills, powers and spells the creature knew (though not spell-like abilities). The victim forgets everything from the reason that he fights to his very name. Those who succeed on the save are still rendered Confused for 1d6 rounds. Wish, Miracle, Psychic Chirurgery and other similiar high-leveled powers can restore an individual's memory whom regains all lost levels and the like.
Such a powerful ability is this that the magnusumatta itself must succeed on a save as well or lose 10 HD. This is a mind-affecting effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Immunity to Mind-Affecting Effects (Ex):
A magnusumattas is immune to all spells, powers and effects with the mind-affecting descriptor.

Not Really Here (Ex):
Though a magnusumatta appears in all ways to be present it is actually residing within its own personal demi-plane. Its properties are such however that a magnusumatta may project a perfect seeming into an area and for all purposes is actually there, able to use its abilities, both magical and physical, except it is immune to all physical and mental affects in turn. To actually harm a magnusumatta requires one travel to its demiplane, whoes rules within vary between individual magnusumattas. A magnusumatta is perfectly aware of its surroundings in both settings simultaneously.

Spell-like Abilities:
At Will - Epic Repulsion, Foresight, Greater Teleport, Interposing Hand, Repel Metal or Stone, Wall of Force; 4/day - Planeshift. Caster level 116th. Save DC's are Charisma-based.

Strategic Knowledge (Sp): A magnusumattas merely has to see a creature through any means to use the equivalent of the Status spell. Its ability does not function after the being's death, but it does cross planar boundaries.

True Seeing (Su): Magnusumattas have a continuous true seeing ability, as the spell (caster level 116th).

[fireinthedust]

Well, first off I'd say... it's got more HD than deities. Hmmm.... Do you have the epic level handbook? It doesn't say in there?

I think CR is too... banal for this fellow, then. You need something more artistic. We'll call it... super-tom Cruise-blue jeans-favourite Rating! Yes, that will do. I'd give it a STCBJFR of 12.

Or else just figure what level they'd have to be to get a 71 save reasonably easily, and go from there. CR... 45?

[Elvaris]

To sum up:
Challenge Rating: Whatever it needs.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Well, first off I'd say... it's got more HD than deities.

First off there are Vermin in the EPH with more HD than this guy ::)

Hmmm.... Do you have the epic level handbook? It doesn't say in there?

Not really, and the CR's of those in the book are known for being waaaaay off anyways.

To sum up:
Challenge Rating: Whatever it needs.

Grrrr... I'm wanting this to be a legit monster here.

[bosssmiley]

but its steps are as silent as the movement of a glacier.

Glaciers make a heck of a lot of noise when in motion (grating away stone will do that), you might want to change this bit of fluff.

Hmmm, the various abilities of this creature make it an infuriating blocker, but not an active threat unless it is harmed first. I'd say that would lower the CR somewhat.

Then again it has stuff like the Not Really There quality, DR 50/- and SR out the wazzoo. Nothing like being invulnerable to harm to up your CR.

The clincher here might be the properties of the demi-plane on which the Magnusumatta resides. Is it a morphable plane? Does the creature have control over the enviroment there? Such total control of the battlefield (no pun) would be worth a few CR in itself.

I'd say CR40 as written.

[Abd al-Azrad]

Isn't it's touch AC 20 (+13 Deflection, +5 Dex, -8 Size, +10 Base)?

Okay, let me try to help determine its CR.

First off, at these levels, I suggest the monster's HP are effectively irrelevant. Given its abilities, I would imagine that if you hadn't "won" the fight before you fail the saves against its nasty mind-affecting abilities, you've lost the fight, and otherwise the battle effectively degenerates into an epic slugfest where damage and HP are merely a measure of the number of rounds the fight will last.

A funny note is that its CR as a numeric value will directly affect how hard the monster is to defeat. I say this because it requires a Knowledge check to learn of its Not Really Here ability- and such checks are based on a 10+CR calculation (see MM IV for details).

Okay, let's break this down. If you fail a Will save against this monster, you will lose the fight. Fortunately, because its Forgotten Cause and Epic repulsion abilities are Supernatural and Spell-like, respectively, it cannot use them within its own Equal Terms area, so it will have to target PCs with their magical defenses up (like Mind Blank). Thus, spellcasters are uniquely suited to defeating this monster. I note that the Conjuration school is well fit for the task- with its Orbs (no SR, functional inside an Antimagic field, no save) one could conceivably defeat this monster from range. An epic-level Orb-like spell would be very effective. With range and preparation, I feel it just comes down to the number of spells you have that can affect this thing, focusing on hitting its touch AC with no save, no SR attack spells. A 30th level caster with a number of rays, orbs, etc, all empowered (via the Epic Metamagic feats), could deal, say, an average of 79 damage per 15d6 Orb, 131 per 25d6 modified Polar Ray, so we're looking at about thirty-fourty spells to kill the creature. It has no regeneration or healing abilities, so I think a 30th-level wizard could pull this one off with difficulty, unless you assign it an SR value greater than 50, in which case we have to rely entirely on ~80 damage Orbs and epic spells. That might be a bit harder.

Unfortunately, due to its DR 50/- and three thousand HP, fighters are not going to have a fun time; if the fight degenerates into a melee, the monster will almost certainly win via Equal Terms. It has just under 3000hp, and deals an average of just under 300 damage/round (with criticals). To stand against such a monster, the PC need healing (impossible inside the antimagic field) and the ability to deal significantly more damage. Not to mention the monster has all the ridiculous combat feats it needs to win in a damage war- Power Attack and Shock Trooper, Large and in Charge, Combat Reflexes and Hold the Line, Improved Sunder with Epic, Adamantine slams dishing out 300 a hit. I would suggest that even a 50th-level fighter would not be able to stand against this monster- even ridiculous Frenzied Berserker builds would get stopped in mid-charge and likely killed.

The really nasty part is that, depending on the demiplane it exists within, this monster may be impossible to keep at range, as is necessary to kill it. It cannot be affected outside its demiplane, and if I was this monster, I would have a demiplane just large enough to accomodate my space and reach, or at least my Equal Terms ability. This fact alone means that unless the PCs are very effective at nonmagical combat (effective enough to survive round after round of 300+ damage with no healing) it's rather impossible to defeat, at all. If it can force the players to fight on its terms- in melee, within an antimagic field- you'd need a team of multiple heavy-damage fighters with well over 500HP each.

I'd go with just under CR 40 except for its Not Really Here ability, which I find very difficult to adjudicate. Effectively used, it would be a CR 50-60 encounter.

EDIT: It can give itself, at will, unbeatable SR, so the wizard would have to rely entirely upon Conjuration effects and Orb-like spells for damage. CR 38-40 as a straight fight, therefore- except, of course, for Not Really Here.

[Collin152]

Ach du Lieber.

This thing is a monster. It makes the tarrasque look like a pansy, even without inpregnable regeneration. This is like, utter ahnialation. This thing IS a god, but without the wacked out Divine Ranks. I give it a CR: DM Fiat.
This thing has Deus ex machina written all over it.
(Probably without typos.)

[PMDM]

This guy seems like a campaign ending monster, so I'm wondering if your though about having hit "areas" instead. You know, hit it's legs, and it loses it's ability to move, and maybe some of it's attacks. Like in a video game. I don't want to rool up 116d8

[The Vorpal Tribble]

I definetely applaud you, Ab, you went over it thoroughly!

Isn't it's touch AC 20 (+13 Deflection, +5 Dex, -8 Size, +10 Base)?

With touch you subtract the natural armor. 85 - 75 = 10... unless I'm too tired to be doing correct calculations.

The really nasty part is that, depending on the demiplane it exists within, this monster may be impossible to keep at range, as is necessary to kill it. It cannot be affected outside its demiplane, and if I was this monster, I would have a demiplane just large enough to accomodate my space and reach, or at least my Equal Terms ability.

Well, this bit I leave open to the DM. However, if I was going to make a demi-plane for myself I'd try to make it at least a bit pleasant for my body while my mind goes a'wandering, meaning it'll probably be a good-sized place.

I'd go with just under CR 40 except for its Not Really Here ability, which I find very difficult to adjudicate. Effectively used, it would be a CR 50-60 encounter.

EDIT: It can give itself, at will, unbeatable SR, so the wizard would have to rely entirely upon Conjuration effects and Orb-like spells for damage. CR 38-40 as a straight fight, therefore- except, of course, for Not Really Here.

Hrmmm, I think maybe I'll go for a CR 55 to be safe as a rough estimate.

Thing is, this CR is only 5 more than the Devestation Beetle, a simple vermin, so its not the god killer everyone is making it out to be.

This guy seems like a campaign ending monster, so I'm wondering if your though about having hit "areas" instead. You know, hit it's legs, and it loses it's ability to move, and maybe some of it's attacks. Like in a video game.

If there were rules for this I'd go for it, but there are so many monsterous beasties out there it should also be able to work for.

I don't want to rool up 116d8

Hehehe, me neither generally, which is why my epic-leveled creatures are few and far between. This thing actually came from a dream where it just kind of peacefully and carefully stepped over this line of soldiers and settled down between them. I was there beneath it as it stepped over and I never had the slightest tremor of fear from it like many of the critters I dream of.

[BakerOfBedlam]

Wait wait... you dream of these things? Good lord, man, how do you even manage to sleep?

[Collin152]

Clearly they are only disturbing by our interpretations. So this is like, the Anti-War beast?
Great for an unexpected ending to a war-themed game.
Well.. It WOULD have been unexpected.

[Gyrfalcon]

What I find amusing is that it has power attack, spring attack, shock trooper, cleave and great cleave.

Player 1: "And it just did... 5000hp to me. Ah well, not going to survive that I guess, I drop."

DM: "Alright, it cleaves off of you into player 2."

Player 2: "It... what?!"

DM: "4875 damage."

Player 2: "I... crap, dead too."

DM: "Okay, it Great Cleaves into Player 3."

Player 3: "Crappity."

[Fax Celestis]

What I find amusing is that it has power attack, spring attack, shock trooper, cleave and great cleave.

Player 1: "And it just did... 5000hp to me. Ah well, not going to survive that I guess, I drop."

DM: "Alright, it cleaves off of you into player 2."

Player 2: "It... what?!"

DM: "4875 damage."

Player 2: "I... crap, dead too."

DM: "Okay, it Great Cleaves into Player 3."

Player 3: "Crappity."

DM: "And it cleaves again into Player 4."

Player 4 (playing an epic wizard): "No he doesn't! I use Greater Celerity to give myself actions, then cast Time Stop! Um."

Player 4 thinks.

Player 4: "I'm going to move to a different continent with a Teleport Without Error spell. When I get there, I'll try to figure out a way to cast fifteen successive Vengeful Gaze of God's without vaporizing. Sorry, mates, you're out of luck on this one."

[Collin152]

That is one smart wizard.
Except for still trying to kill it.

[Dark]

For the patient strategist, tricking it into using forgotten cause twenty times should do it :)

Would the save DC remain at 71 while its own saves drop from the HD loss? That would make it feasible.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Wait wait... you dream of these things? Good lord, man, how do you even manage to sleep?

Lets just say the only thing scarier than some of my dreams... is me in my dreams. I'm always going about fighting these things and ripping them apart (sometimes literally). I remember one where an army of orcs were marching towards my house. I went over and pulled a telephone pole out of the ground and start swinging and sending them flying.

Whats funny is the rest of my family often has dreams where something is chasing or attacking them and they say I run in and start beating up whatever it is. Thing is, I've never even been in a real fight my whole life (aside from an angry dog and an emu I had to wrestle once).

My dreamself is just blood thirsty.

So this is like, the Anti-War beast?

Only wars that will do far more harm than good.

Would the save DC remain at 71 while its own saves drop from the HD loss?

No, the DC would drop with its HD as how you calculate the DC's of things is by halfing a creature's HD to add to the key stat mod.

[Abd al-Azrad]

Lets just say the only thing scarier than some of my dreams... is me in my dreams. I'm always going about fighting these things and ripping them apart (sometimes literally). I remember one where an army of orcs were marching towards my house. I went over and pulled a telephone pole out of the ground and start swinging and sending them flying.

Whats funny is the rest of my family often has dreams where something is chasing or attacking them and they say I run in and start beating up whatever it is. Thing is, I've never even been in a real fight my whole life (aside from an angry dog and an emu I had to wrestle once).

My dreamself is just blood thirsty.

Man, I know what you mean. Some of my best dreams incorporated massive fights. I remember this one time where I was getting overpowered by swarms of fighters, so with a wave of my arms, I created a building (it sprouted from the ground) and then jumped up onto it to escape the fight. Hundreds of feet up.

God, I love dreaming. And lucid dreaming, especially. I really need to get back into practicing lucid dreaming.

BTW, I think you miscalulated its AC. +75 natural, +13 Deflection, +5 Dex, -8 Size? That's 10+75+13+5 = 95. I see you didn't calculate its base AC into the whole calculation.

[Zantumall]

I don't know that much about calculating CR, but I think this thing should be even higher. The really game-breaking thing here is the antimagic field ability out to one mile. What you have to remember is that any character above level 3 or so is going to be heavily dependent on magic. Any party fighting this thing would have to do so with nonmagical weapons and armor, no healing, and no support/damage spells. The party casters would be pointless, so they'd effectively be down 2-3 party members as well.

[Athaniar]

Cool monster, incredibly silly name.

[LordZarth]

I don't know that much about calculating CR, but I think this thing should be even higher. The really game-breaking thing here is the antimagic field ability out to one mile. What you have to remember is that any character above level 3 or so is going to be heavily dependent on magic. Any party fighting this thing would have to do so with nonmagical weapons and armor, no healing, and no support/damage spells. The party casters would be pointless, so they'd effectively be down 2-3 party members as well.

W-w-why did this get necromancied from 2006?!

[Magnor Criol]

W-w-why did this get necromancied from 2006?!

Zantumall may have been browsing Vorpal's homebrew index, and just forgotten or not realized how old this guy was when he felt he had something to post. I know I've almost done that a couple times.

[Athaniar]

Oh, didn't notice it was this old. Well, it still has a very silly name.

[Xapi]

I think the title of the thread is a good reason to necromance this thread now.