Results 31 to 60 of 245
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2013-07-21, 06:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Italy
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Not sure, I should definitely be good-aligned and yet I approve of the soul splice, as it could have solved so many problems. Basically because I have a strong pragmatic streak, and while I believe that ends generally do not justify the means, I also believe that for every rule there is an exception, and with the world at stake, well, it's a good time to make exceptions. I hope I'm not contributing into turning this into a "morally justified" thread that will get subsequently locked, but I rather want to point out that intentions are important, as a person who does evil while trying to do good will generally be considered good (extreme cases notwithstanding).
About Eugene, I agree that everything else he did in those last years after he died would peg him as true neutral, but probably he will not be judged for that. When alive, he was good, even if his horrible social skills made it quite hard to recognize. Again, it's a matter of intent. He was a bad father, but he was actually trying his best for roy. And he gave a fair shot at Xykon, after that putting vengeance aside for the family was the lawful and good thing to do... too bad for the oath.
About the lack of neutral caracters, well, they appear, but being neutral, they generally go on with their lives afterwards. they do not stay in the story.
Also, the main cast (the oots and team evil) were crafted to have conflict in them. So oots is split between lawful good and chaotic good, to get humor out of the coonflict between the straight guys roy and durkon, and the crazyness of elan and haley. So that's the reason there aren't many neutrals among the main teams.
Sabine may be neutral evil, I don't think we know her alignment on law-chaos axis.In memory of Evisceratus: he dreamed of a better world, but he lacked the class levels to make the dream come true.
Ridiculous monsters you won't take seriously even as they disembowel you
my take on the highly skilled professional: the specialized expert
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2013-07-21, 07:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2013
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- Denial
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2013-07-21, 09:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2006
- Location
- Arad, Israel
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Maybe "absentee father" is the wrong term to use. A better term might be "a father who is not particularly nurturing because of his personality". We have no evidence that Eugene did anything worse than miss a few soccer games, try to convince Roy to become a Wizard rather than a Fighter, and conspire with Shojo to get the OotS to Azure City. Eugene paid Roy's tuition (and probably left a trust fund for Julia as well), and he decided not to pursue Xykon, despite having intelligence on where to find the Lich, when Roy was eight, because he feared he'd leave Roy an orphan.
Basically Eugene was a Lawful Good man with a lot of character flaws. And as Sara Greenhilt explained to Roy, one of Eugene's flaws was a tendency to not finish projects he started. I can easily see him growing bored of domestic life and divorcing his wife, but he remained faithful to Sara until he died (afterwards was another story) and he loved Roy, Eric and Julia. But his love was a superficial one, and he would find new projects to interest him and then leave them unfinished too. That doesn't make him True Neutral, Chaotic Neutral or Lawful Good, because a Character's Alignment does not govern his personality and vice versa!
Spoilers for SoD:
SpoilerIn SoD, Eugene tells Roy that he never had good intelligence on where to find Xykon after his initial attempt ended up with his group disturbing Xyklon the Consequential. Eugene tells Roy that had he learned where Xykon was hiding, he would have run out on Sara, Roy and Julia in a heartbeat to try and fulfill his Oath.
Several scenes later we see Eugene meeting Right-Eye in a seedy bar on a rainy night. Right-Eye gives Eugene Xykon's home address and "suggests" the Illusionist rustle up a few adventurers and destroy the Lich. Eugene refuses, because he does not want to die and leave Roy an orphan. Having a family has made a big difference in Eugene's life, even if he doesn't always show it properly, and he convinces Right-Eye to ditch Xykon and make a new life for himself.
Eugene's decision not to fulfill his Blood Oath of Vengeance can be seen as a Chaotic act, but that alone is not enough to change his Alignment to Neutral Good, True Neutral, etc. The magic of the Blood Oath prevents him from entering any afterlife; should Roy or Julia destroy Xykon, Eugene will be cleared to enter Celestia.
I think that a True Neutral character can be very heroic. Mordenkainen performs great deeds, battles great Evils, and is willing to stand up to old friends like Tenser and Bigby in order to fulfill his philosophy of Balance between the extreme Alignments. As another example, an anti-hero or anti-villain could be True Neutral; a good case can be made that Mal Reynolds, from Firefly was True Neutral, at least following the Alliance's victory in the war.
Girard is THE archetype for Chaotic Good.
Chaotic Neutral characters are incaple of sacrifices for the common good, even less comitting their entire lifes to guard an "absurd" Gate...
Chaotic Neutral characters are, on their best, independent, pragmatical and individualists. But as true individualists, they would never involve in lifetime activities for the promotion of good causes. If they could give their life to a project, being CN as they are, they would be philosophical followers of Chaos. One example of this could be the Joker ("I'm an agent of Chaos") in the Dark Knight Batman.
Captain Jack Sparrow is Chaotic Neutral, as are Deadpool, Sandor Clegane, aka "The Hound" from "A Song of Ice and Fire, and Kender. The Joker, Lobo and Doctor Light (from the DCU), Sabretooth, Apocalypse, the Green Goblin (in his less sane persona) and Carnage (from the Marvel Universe), The Hound's brother Gregor Clegane, aka "The Mountain That Rides", the bounty hunter Jubal Early (from Firefly) and Bad Horse (if you have to ask where he's from, turn in your nerd badge pronto!) are all Chaotic Evil.
Being Chaotic Evil doesn't keep someone from making plans, despite the Joker's magnificent speech in The Dark Knight. Apocalypse has been planning the extinction of mankind (and their replacement by his family of mutants, Clan Akkaba) through a brutal system that mimics Social Darwinism for over four thousand years, but he is not Lawful Evil. He has no interest in ruling the world, unlike Doctor Doom or Lex Luthor, because that would mean taking responsibility for what happens to his subjects. Lobo planned and carried out the genocide of his own species, the famously hardy Czarnians, when he was a child. He can track anyone across vast stellar reaches, and once he gives his word he will not break it. But he is a violent, psychotic brute, who views any lifeform, except himself and his space dolphin friends, as a potential target.
On the same note, Jack Sparrow, when he wasn't drunk, high, trying to have sex, or in custody for crimes against various governments, was an accomplished captain of a pirate ship, who could command his crew's loyalty some of the time. Unlike Robin Hood, Jack Sparrow steals from everybody, he betrays those closest to him, but he never crosses the line that would make him a monster. The Hound lives in a world of Grey and Black morality, where the worst thing he ever actually did was murder a boy because he was ordered to by the Chaotic Evil Prince Joffrey. Everything else Sandor did was Neutral or even Good, especially regarding Sansa and Arya. In his case, the old Yiddish joke, "His brother was worse!" was never more apropos.
So yeah, Girard and the Draketooths could have been Chaotic Neutral, despite their daily schedules, their complicated traps and illusions, their standing vigil over a Gate for decades and their keeping the oath Girard swore not to interfere with the other Gates. They can't be Chaotic Good, not if what Orrin did to Penelope was standard practice for their clan.
Eugene has done exactly two things that are Chaotic since he's died, and he's done quite a number of Lawful and Good things as well. His Alignment's not in danger of changing.
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2013-07-21, 09:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
That would only be true if we confirmation that Girard was alive and approved/instigated those methods when they were initiated.
And there is absolutely nothing in the narrative to suggest that. Indeed, since recruitment only becomes an issue after the first generation, and Girard was of that generation, it is just as likely that the practice only began after Girard died, or was something cooked up by an old, dying, and senile Girard, who by then had become something far different from what he was when he was younger.
I do not think it likely that Serini would have been drawing hearts around a picture of a Chaotic Evil Girard in her diary. Even less likely that she would continue to associate with a CE Girard for so many years afterwards. *Possible* for a Chaotic Neutral Girard, but even that is a stretch, and makes the most likely alignment for Girard to be Chaotic Good.
It is also possible that Girard started the adventure with the Scribblers as Chaotic Good, but slowly changed alignment as he grew more and more paranoid. (Few pathologically paranoid people start out that way, they become that way over time.)
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2013-07-21, 09:51 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Also, was not Kraagor canonically Chaotic Neutral?
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2013-07-21, 09:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2006
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- Arad, Israel
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2013-07-21, 10:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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- Hixson, TN
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Yeah, I have a hard time thinking that Girard is Chaotic Evil. Granted, the bar for CE in the strip is set pretty high by Xykon and Belkar (and probably Thog), but his actions are not close to on par with theirs for badness. In truth, his goals are still good ones, that is, the protection of his gate from the predations of the outside world. His methods are unpleasant, i.e. theft and kidnapping, but there's no evidence of murder or other forms of outright cruelty. Chaotic Neutral seems like it can range from loveable nut to selfish jerk, and Girard's crew seem to be on the latter end of the spectrum. I can see him having drifted from being CG in his youth through bitterness and anger at the dissolution of the Scribblers.
As to the actual topic, it is true that most of the major characters in the strip tend toward extreme alignments, and perhaps that's because the Giant feels he has more insights to offer into those, or perhaps they just ended up fitting most closely with the characters he created. Either way, there's always V, who is very N, and is appropriately complex in that department.
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2013-07-21, 10:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2010
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- Turkey
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2013-07-21, 10:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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- Lost in the Hinterlands
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Roy's sister is True Neutral.
A father taken by time, a brother dead by my own hand.
With this work behold my grief, in Stone and shifting sand.
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2013-07-21, 10:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2012
Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
I agree that personality and alignment are not the same -- of course, a LG person can be jerky, a CE person can act sweetly.
Also, now that you've laid out what we actually know about him, I think that Eugene isn't quite as bad as I remembered him from the comic and SoD.
If your personality causes you to treat people poorly, though -- I think that's a strike against if you want to be considered good. Imagine things from the perspective of the deva who decides whether to allow you into the LG afterlife. Surely, being a bad parent would be a strike against, yeah? And being a good parent would be a mark in your favor? Note, I'm only saying a "strike" -- it is still be possible for a bad parent to be LG, and of course a good parent can be CE, but treating your family poorly is likely a sign of selfishness -- and selfishness is not a hallmark of good.
A tendency to abandon projects also doesn't strike me as very lawful. Again, not saying that makes you unlawful, just a strike against.Last edited by Bird; 2013-07-21 at 10:38 PM.
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2013-07-21, 10:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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- Lake Wobegon
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Eugene was also involved in the accident that got Eric killed. Without knowing more it'd be stretching things to say he killed Eric, or that his negligence contributed to his death more than any other factor, but he was involved, and Roy does blame him.
Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2013-07-21 at 10:47 PM.
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2013-07-21, 11:24 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2006
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- Arad, Israel
- Gender
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2013-07-21, 11:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2006
- Location
- Arad, Israel
- Gender
Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Roy was pretty young when the accident happened, so his memories may not 100% accurate about what happened. The Deva reviewing Eugene's case file doesn't bring it up, and Roy's Archon was surprised to see Eric in Sara's house. I think that Roy blames himself as much as he blames his father. We haven't seen Eugene's side of the story, so until we get more details (in the comic or from the Giant) we're in the dark about what happened.
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2013-07-21, 11:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2012
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2013-07-21, 11:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2006
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- Arad, Israel
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2013-07-22, 12:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
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2013-07-22, 12:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2013
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- New Jersey
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2013-07-22, 01:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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- Beverly, MA, USA
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Aren't they sort of the same thing, though? I mean, the selling-hir-soul was the "payment" for the soul splice, the "product." I'm not sure anyone thinks that it would have been evil for V to splice the evil spellcasters with hir soul in order to defeat the ABD, reunite the party and attempt to kill Xykon if (s)he could do so without selling hir soul at all. Somebody probably does think this, and I'm open to the idea, but to me the product and the payment come as a package deal.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, it's pretty late over here.Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends
Currently playing a level 20 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 9 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.
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2013-07-22, 01:24 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Fiends & other outsiders with a subtype, can change alignment away from that subtype- though it's very rare.
And Sabine is supervised by Director Lee- a devil.
Still, the IFCC seemed to be more about "different alignments working together" than "fiends with a changed alignment"
So it's highly likely that, despite her supervisor, Sabine is CE rather than LE.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
New Marut Avatar by Linkele
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2013-07-22, 01:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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- Lake Wobegon
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2013-07-22, 02:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2013
Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
As I view it, Eugene is TN, or less likely NG, Haley is likely CN, and Girard CN. Varsuuvius may be Good now, but I see no reason to believe he is lawful. Nale is perhaps Neutral Evil, and Miko strikes me as LG only in theory. Roy sometimes behaves in a NG manner.
Never to command the army again...oh distant azure heaven, what could be more sad? - Zhuge Liang
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2013-07-22, 02:34 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2013
Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Last edited by WoLong; 2013-07-22 at 02:47 AM.
Never to command the army again...oh distant azure heaven, what could be more sad? - Zhuge Liang
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2013-07-22, 03:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Last edited by FujinAkari; 2013-07-22 at 03:55 AM.
Official Incense Aroma Specialist for the Vaarsuvius Fan Club!
English isn't my primary language, so please let me know if something I'm saying doesn't make sense!Continuation of ThePhantasm's awesometacular post
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2013-07-22, 04:01 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
I can think of a couple reasons neutrality never figured big.
For one thing, neutrality on the law-chaos axis never made much sense? You follow the lawful mindset or you don't, and the latter makes you chaotic. It's not like chaotic characters go out of the way to break the law or oppose order just to ensure they're staying in character, they do it primarily when it conveniences them or they believe it's the right thing to do. In that respect, neutral-good/evil is kind of redundant with chaotic-good/evil, unless we're claiming the second group is actually chaotic stupid. By the same token, it's not like lawful characters would continue following the law if it overrides their good/evil alignment unless they're lawful stupid, which doesn't leave neutral-good/evil much of a niche on that side of things either.
In a similar vein, good and evil are not equal. Even if you do a lot of good things, it only takes one truly heinous act to become evil, while the reverse certainly isn't true. For that reason, it's difficult to make a character who naturally balances good and evil enough to really count as "neutral" rather than a lighter shade of evil, or a darker shade of good. Which brings me back to my first point, only where the neutral alignment becomes redundant unless you assume the other alignments are stupid-good and stupid-evil.
The other issue is that it's kind of hard to say neutral is the default on the good/evil spectrum, unless it's through inaction. Despite how much controversy the fandom has created over alignments, Good and Evil are clear cut, existing concepts in most D&D universes, OOTS' included. A character can only do so much before they either prove altruistic enough to count for good, or damaging enough to gravitate towards evil. Vaarsuvius is generally described as the Order of the Stick's "neutral" operative, but she's also the most controversially labeled for that reason. She fits the neutral archetype to a T, but as it turns out, a character can only be heroic for the wrong reasons so many times before they start looking like a would-be villain that just happens to be fighting for the better team.Last edited by Talvereaux; 2013-07-22 at 04:52 AM. Reason: bit of repetitive phrasing
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2013-07-22, 04:29 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
I don't know where people get this.
Looking at the way Kraagor's sacrifice tore the Order of the Scribble apart, and Kraagor's extremely mild line when the other members of the Order were poking at each other, I'd say all existing evidence--what tiny bit of it there is--points to Neutral Good, as good as Elan; "He was the heart and soul of his team."Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2013-07-22, 04:45 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2007
Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
SpoilerI am a:
Lawful Good Human Wizard (4th Level)
Ability Scores:
Strength- 10
Dexterity- 11
Constitution- 13
Intelligence- 15
Wisdom- 13
Charisma- 11
What D&D character are you?
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2013-07-22, 05:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2003
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- Philadelphia, PA
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Lawful Neutral: Mr. Jones, The CPPD, Kilkil.
Chaotic Neutral: Julio Scoundrél, Jenny, Ian Starshine.
True Neutral: Gannji, Enor, Julia Greenhilt, Vaarsuvius, Mr. Scruffy, Therkla, Right-eye, The Oracle, Hank.
Neutral Evil: Tsukikko, Leeky Windstaff, Pompey, Zz'dtri, Bozzok, Crystal, Grubwiggler, the Snail.
Neutral Good: Lirain, Dorkuan, Kazumi & Daigo.
I'm sure there are others, and some I'm specifically not mentioning.
People with Neutral alignments tend to not go on about it all the time. Lack of talking about it does not equal lack of presence in the comic, but since there's very little to say story-wise that can't ALSO be said with at least one corner alignment, there's not much reason to bring it up.Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~
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2013-07-22, 05:45 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Interesting.
Some of those puzzle me. (Crystal most of all; her blind, absolute dedication and obedience to the Thieves' Guild as personified by Bozzok made me peg her as as Lawful as Durkon.) And there are, of course, some I still wonder what their official alignment is (Girard...).
Next stop, the Index of the Giant's Comments.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2013-07-22, 05:54 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2003
- Location
- Philadelphia, PA
- Gender
Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
That's personal loyalty to one person, not to the idea of the Thieves' Guild or the Guildmaster. A single personal relationship does not an alignment make. For example: She's also totally willing to kill Haley and make it look like an accident even after the contract is signed reinstating Haley to the Guild. There's no legalese or loophole there—it's straight-up, "Kill her and then we'll sort it out."
Put another way: If Haley was voted Guildmaster tomorrow, do you think Crystal would still be absolutely dedicated and obedient to the Thieves' Guild?Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~
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2013-07-22, 06:09 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Considering the question is being asked as a leading question by the person who controls Crystal's every thought and action, I'm going to guess the answer is "no." But if someone else had posed that question, I would probably have bet on what struck me as Crystal's extreme Lawfulness overriding her personal distaste for Haley in that situation.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II